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Offline Freahk

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Re: Improvement of the station detail dialog
« Reply #35 on: January 18, 2021, 08:18:23 PM »
Again, it's not "waiting speed"
So what else is it?
A Virtual speed abstraction of the waiting time?

Offline jamespetts

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Re: Improvement of the station detail dialog
« Reply #36 on: January 18, 2021, 09:02:28 PM »
Do I understand that the so-called "waiting speed" is the average speed for the whole journey, including the waiting time? If so, then perhaps the issue is that this could be clearer; perhaps a tooltip on hovering over the icons would help?

Offline wlindley

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Re: Improvement of the station detail dialog
« Reply #37 on: January 19, 2021, 02:05:39 PM »
Waiting equals not moving; "waiting speed" is a contradiction.  Does this mean, "Effective travel speed based on estimated total journey time for waiting passengers" ?  (Yes, some concepts are difficult to express in English.)

Offline Freahk

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Re: Improvement of the station detail dialog
« Reply #38 on: January 19, 2021, 02:14:18 PM »
Yes, that's obviously a contradiction, which is the point.
There's a speed assigned to waiting.

The question is: "Does that "speed" relate to the average speed needed to travel the specific distance in the given waiting time?" or "Does that speed relate to the average speed needed to travel the specific distance in the given waiting plus journey time?"

Besides assigning any speed to waiting being difficult to understand, the above is not clear to the user.
Given the calculates numbers is actually seems to relate to waiting plus journey time, in which case this number at least has a practical use.
But again, this is entirely unclear to any user and really needs some clarification.

Offline jamespetts

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Re: Improvement of the station detail dialog
« Reply #39 on: January 19, 2021, 02:39:36 PM »
The issue seems to be not that the display actually refers to a "waiting speed" (which does not make sense), but rather that, while it refers to something that makes good sense and is useful, viz. the journey speed when waiting time is taken into account, this might be misinterpreted and cause confusion. Again, I believe that this can be resolved relatively simply by adding a tooltip and should not require any fundamental change.

Offline Ranran

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Re: Improvement of the station detail dialog
« Reply #40 on: January 19, 2021, 03:06:36 PM »
So what else is it?
Expected movement speed?
I have already tried to explain it. And I gave an example of vs walking and also showed that it is the value used for route selection. I also encouraged you to see some examples in-game. You should be able to notice the distance display on the left and the sum of the two times and their association. Nevertheless, it's strange to think of it as "waiting speed". Did you think there is km/h to wait at the station? Sure there is time to transfer, but that is irrelevant. Because it has a distance of 0, speed cannot be calculated. Cargo is just charged a transfer time inside the station.
I'm talking about just a matter of expression, but I just thought you did so because you still don't understand what it is.

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A Virtual speed abstraction of the waiting time
Maybe incorrect (´・ω・`)


The time and speed in the four are statistical values.
Let me give you some short expressions about these four. Maybe it can help you understand what it means. I'm not an English speaker so it may be incorrect. It's up to Dr. Google translate of my ghost translator.

From left to right
(1) Average travel time of convoy to this destination / Estimated travel time if depart immediately / Expected travel time excluding waiting time / 所要時間 in Japanese
(2) Average "travel" speed of convoy to this destination / Convoy's speed evaluation to that destination / 表定速度 in Japanese
(3) Average departure interval for that "route" / Average waiting time at the station when heading to this destination / Average departure interval of convoy to this destination
(4) Convert the expected time to get there to speed / Convert average travel time between stations to speed / Expected movement speed to this destination / Evaluation speed of this "route" / Estimated speed of this route / Evaluation speed for cargo to select a route

I saw the English translation of "表定速度" as scheduled speed, but I don't know if it is correct because there are few examples. However, it is a very common concept and word in Japan.


Next, I explain them from the perspective of statistics used in the game.
(1) Almost worthless value. In the process of calculating (2) and (4). Or to make it look like the real world.
 However, I think this display is necessary for consistency with the walking time display. It doesn't take up much space. It's better to have it than not in my opinion.

(2) This shows how much loss is occurring with respect to the maximum speed of convoy. Acceleration performance, braking performance, stops between destinations, detour routes, traffic jams, speed limits, slopes, all possible causes. Theoretically, the maximum speed of convoy is the limit value. You could improve it by taking steps such as changing to a faster vehicle, replace with high speed way, improving acceleration, straightening the route, eliminating intersections, eliminating hills, and skipping stops along the way.
It also shows the theoretical limits of this route evaluation. In other words, if you depart convoy at intervals as close as possible to 0 seconds, the route evaluation(4) will be close to this value. This value differs from the average speed of convoy in that it also calculates the time it takes to stop at a station along the way.

(3) This is the average waiting time for passengers to arrive at this station and for the train to their destination to depart. This value is, of course, taken into account when calculating the estimated travel time for passengers and selecting routes.
This is greatly affected by frequency. It's like the real world. You will want to take advantage of the frequent public transport when you go shopping nearby.
Note that this is the sum of all lines and convoys that have the same direct route.
That is, if there is a line of 1 convoy/hour and a line of 2 convoy/hour, it is considered as 3 convoy/hour. In other words, the average waiting time is evaluated as 20 minutes. Thus, this is closely related to the individual line/convoy service frequency and will be helpful in deciding them.

(4) This value is the most important. This is the value most relevant to passengers/cargoes deciding the route. Because they choose the fastest route.
(1)-(3) are just values in the calculation process of (4), cargo choose the route by (4), and does not care what values (1)-(3) are. .. It's actually the fastest "time" route between "two points"(distance), but it can be replaced by one "speed".
In other words, the route with the fastest speed will be the winner. Win passengers from parallel routes. The faster this speed is, the more likely it is that your network will be able to attract passengers, and the slower the speed, the more likely passengers will give up on the starting a trip and evaluate your transportation network "too slow" and they will say your train is as fast as a snail. 🐌


From a code point of view, the numbers (1) + (3) are actually used to calculate the travel time, but we have no way of knowing the entire journey of the traveler, so getting it is not possible. It doesn't make much sense. And they don't carry out their trips as they decide. After you depart, you just have to choose the best method at the point. If the time limit is exceeded, they will give up their trip and refund.


This is the big difference between standard and extended. Since standard determines the route based on the route cost, it is very important that the times of exchanges is little.
However, it should be noted that change trains at the station adds the waiting time to the travel time that determines the route in extended.
So how can players know it, look at its stats, and improve it?
Yes, this is one of those pieces of information.
Even if you use a 300km/h vehicle, it is a pure fact that passengers rate it as such if it is 30km/h in (4). It may be useless to bother to use such a fast vehicle. You may get the same result if you operate a slow vehicle frequently.
The display tells the player that fact. Do you think it is correct to name this (4) "waiting speed"? I'm not an English speaker, but it sounds quite different.
Without this, the information would be scattered in a very vague and more difficult to grasp form.


The first step I have to take is to make the display understandable.
I noticed that I forgot to push the Japanese translation which ranran made before. And I checked it and fixed it a bit. You may be able to refer to it when making an English translation.
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Do I understand that the so-called "waiting speed" is the average speed for the whole journey, including the waiting time If so, then perhaps the issue is that this could be clearer; perhaps a tooltip on hovering over the icons would help?
That's correct. It's like a barometer of service frequency and travel time, an indicator of route convenience. I couldn't come up with a short proper English expression. Even Japanese expression is difficult.

I understand that the relationship between (1) and (2) and the relationship between (3) and (4) are not the same. But, unfortunately, I can't think of any other good suggestions.

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Again, I believe that this can be resolved relatively simply by adding a tooltip and should not require any fundamental change.
I added a tooltip. But I think you need to edit it because I'm not confident in the English notation in the default text.

Offline Vladki

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Re: Improvement of the station detail dialog
« Reply #41 on: January 19, 2021, 04:59:01 PM »
Ranran, you used too much word to describe something quite simple. So I ask for simple YES/NO answer if I understand correctly:

#1 - average time (without waiting) to get to given destination
#2 - average speed (without waiting) to given destination (i.e. #2 = distance / #1)
#3 - average waiting time for service to given destination
#4 - average speed (including wait times) ... #4 = distance / (#1 + #3)

And for routing decision the average time including waiting is used (#1 + #3)

If that is so then the display could be:
[stopwatch] time (speed) ... [hourglass] time ... [stopwatch + hourglass] time (speed)
That would be IMHO quite enough, and perhaps a tooltip on stopwatch: "average moving/travel time" and on hourglass "average waiting time"

Offline Freahk

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Re: Improvement of the station detail dialog
« Reply #42 on: January 19, 2021, 05:08:20 PM »
No, don't rename it as "waiting speed" please. It was just an abstract name being used as its effect was not clearly known and in the UI, it's simply a speed related to the hourglass (waiting time) icon.

I guess a tooltip might indeed clarify this. It would be best to introduce a new icon, so players can clearly see "it's not a speed related to waiting, it's a speed related to the total time."

Edit: What Vladki suggested is also fine.

Offline Ranran

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Re: Improvement of the station detail dialog
« Reply #43 on: January 20, 2021, 02:57:43 AM »
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No, don't rename it as "waiting speed" please
Who used the word "waiting speed"? You are the first.
Who recommended using the word "waiting speed"? I'm not. I have repeatedly explained that it is wrong.

Certainly we needed a guide to avoid such misunderstandings. It has already been incorporated.

Offline Freahk

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Re: Improvement of the station detail dialog
« Reply #44 on: January 20, 2021, 03:40:54 AM »
Uhm?
Using the word does not mean that I recommend using that word ingame.
I did never ever recommend this.
The only thing I said is that a speed related to waiting feels weird.
Something like "waiting speed" is what comes in mind because, well, it's a speed related to the stopwatch icon, which usually represents waiting.

To make this relation clear, I support Vladkis idea.

Offline Ranran

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Re: Improvement of the station detail dialog
« Reply #45 on: January 20, 2021, 10:53:19 AM »
I think adding more symbol is not necessary.

And we have to consider the symbolless pakset. But I recommend using the same britain pak rather than leaving the symbol unprepared.

Offline freddyhayward

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Re: Improvement of the station detail dialog
« Reply #46 on: January 20, 2021, 11:27:13 AM »
I don't have a solution to this problem, but the stopwatch and hourglass icons both represent the same concept - they are not useful in distinguishing travel time from waiting time. Perhaps the icon for travel time could be an arrow, truck, locomotive, or something else.

Offline Ranran

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Re: Improvement of the station detail dialog
« Reply #47 on: January 20, 2021, 11:39:02 AM »
Both represent time, but there is a difference between waiting without doing anything and moving time, so I think hourglass is appropriate for time when nothing is done (not moving).
I think hourglass fits well with the word "waiting".

Offline wlindley

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Re: Improvement of the station detail dialog
« Reply #48 on: January 20, 2021, 12:11:42 PM »
 Lots of words are confusing, but after reading Vladki's explanation, Ranran's latest screenshot made me instantly understand. Once there are tooltips, the stopwatch and hourglass are logical. (IMHO)

Offline Freahk

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Re: Improvement of the station detail dialog
« Reply #49 on: January 20, 2021, 01:58:32 PM »
I agree with Freddy, the distinguishon in between the stopwatch and hourglass is not intuitively clear. I guess I just got used to it, so if there is a better alternative, we should consider it, but I'm also not sure what that alternative might be.

I guess adding another symbol related to the total time, for example a plus, is even better to understand, but the solution now already is much better than it was before.

Offline jamespetts

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Re: Improvement of the station detail dialog
« Reply #50 on: January 20, 2021, 11:17:47 PM »
There are many cases where it is not easy or even possible to convey a complex or subtle distinction with a symbol alone. However, using a symbol together with tooltip text can be very effective: players who may not initially understand the distinction can learn quickly what it means, and, once they have learnt, the display is much clearer for symbols being used than if it were entirely made of text.