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Offline Václav

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Hospital chain
« on: July 06, 2019, 03:59:39 PM »
Recently I wanted to see situation in this pakset and so I started game. And aside of else industries, I noticed also hospital chain. I am not sure if current form is good idea but may it be. Let's talk about something else - face of that hospital.

I started game in year 1930 - and what I saw? Hospital with heliport that is built almost like a monoblock (I am not sure if that is correct word).

Heliport
  • the first usable helicopter was avaialble in year 1938
  • helicopters capable of transportation of people were available much later
  • helicopters constructed specially for transport of patients are almost current solution

Monoblock
  • hospitals built in 1930's and earlier were not built as monoblock (at least I don't know about any)
  • (at least massive) building of hospitals as monoblock began between 1960's and 1980's

Both Prague's hospitals built in 1930's are not built as monoblock. I beg your pardon for non-translated names.
  • Nemocnice Na Bulovce (NNB)
    • 1931
  • Ústřední vojenská nemocnice (ÚVN)
    • 1938

Both hospitals called above have heliport - but they (heliports) were built much later. In case of NNB, it is on hill inside hospital area, not on roof of any building (because even newer pavilions were not designed to have heliport). ÚVN was later totally re-constructed and heliport was placed on roof of one pavilion.

Other hospitals are much older (beginning of 20th century, end of 18th century) or much younger (1970's).

So, current face is usable, but for later ages. And for the first half of 20th century is needed to paint something else - for example something like this

This building (the largest of all on photo) was built in the second half of 19th century and serves as maternity hospital. Used style: English new-renessaince.

Offline Leartin at

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Re: Hospital chain
« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2019, 06:29:47 PM »
Well, the hospital in use is the Med Campus 3 of the Kepler University Clinic -> https://www.google.com/maps/@48.3026579,14.3118828,558a,35y,270h,39.26t/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=de
As you can see, the depicted buildings are actually just part of the full hospital, I suspect it's the newest part, so quite modern indeed.

You seem to take issue with the heliport. Indeed, a hospital in 1930 would not have a heliport, given that helicopters were not available. This would also be true for the oil platform, which has a heliport too, and is available in 1925. Which is a bit early for an oil platform in general. To me, this is no big issue - or rather, it's just a tiny example of the much bigger timeline-issue that cannot be prevented. For example, look at any piece good. The unit for piece good is pallets. Pallets are an invention of the 20th century, since they are only useful together with forklifts. So if you don't want anything anachronistic, you run into trouble here - you could not have any piece good before 1920. Silly, right?
Besides, it's a comic pakset. With a giant squid for ink. I don't think it's hard to believe that in this world, helipads were used much earlier. Or, perhaps, that they used hot air balloons ;)

You might think the issue could be prevented by always using older buildings. That's partly true, I guess, but not completely. Since they don't change their design once buildt, you are always stuck with a specific time period. Having horse carriages in front of the hospital in the 21st century is no better than helipads in 1930. You may go for a more generic look - if my hospital did not have a helipad, I'm sure it would be much more acceptable - but that's not too good either, since it means everything looks generic.

I'm not opposed to another hospital in the pakset, but it's very low priority to me. Especially since the hospital chain is not connected to anything else so far, and might not be what people want (and all buildings of it could easily become curiosities, too)

Offline Václav

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Re: Hospital chain
« Reply #2 on: July 06, 2019, 09:32:39 PM »
Thanks.

As I see that screen on maps, all buildings of Kepler Universitätsklinikum looks quite modern or at least well maintained.

Offline Leartin at

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Re: Hospital chain
« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2019, 09:15:12 AM »
While a hospital existed there since 1863, it was mostly destroyed during the war, and there was a major rebuild/refurbishing from 1982 to 2002.
Which is, by the way, another reason historical accuracy can become a problem. The game typically starts 1930, a difficult time in German history. At least for the first 15 years of game time, you really don't want the game to represent reality at all.

Offline Václav

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Re: Hospital chain
« Reply #4 on: July 07, 2019, 10:57:21 AM »
Generally, hard to say if hospitals take positive or negative role in history.

For example, NNB. It was hospital where Heidrich was operated after he was assassinated. And he died there. But important is, why this hospital - simply because place of assassination is very very close to this hospital. If assassination was done elsewhere (near else hospital) ...

Offline Václav

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Re: Hospital chain
« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2019, 02:46:22 PM »
... Current form of chain (patients -> corpses) is very comic in its special way. Mostly if various sources about significantly decreased hospital mortality during doctors' strikes are truthful.

Israel, 1973, 29 days, 50%
Bogota, 1976, 52 days, 35%


But I still think that for example food (or at least various resources like meet, vegetables, bread, milk and many more - because many hospitals have own kitchens and bakeries or so) and other various materials (medicaments, textiles or so) that are more or less stable various ages could be better.


And here I am getting to point why I am not sure if current form is good idea. This form (producing of special category of pax) may be used for courts. Courts might produce prisoners ... and prisoners may be transported to various jails (and now I am very close to dark history of 1930's and 1940's you mentioned in your last post - and also later ages, when jails are filled with political prisoners again).

Offline Vladki cz

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Re: Hospital chain
« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2019, 03:12:42 PM »
Well I don't think that jail or cemetery are good candidates for industry chains. The transport of prisoners or corpses is generally quite low volume and irregular. So it is not suitable for game like simutrans, where you look for regular and high volume transports. That's also why I think that nuclear power plant chain will not be playable. The amount of fuel needed is very low...

Offline Václav

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Re: Hospital chain
« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2019, 03:59:59 PM »
That's also why I think that nuclear power plant chain will not be playable. The amount of fuel needed is very low...
As I looked, that EDU, formerly JEDU (jaderná elektrárna Dukovany, nuclear powerplant Dukovany) has reactors with capacity of 42 tons of nuclear fuel. One third of fuel is changed every three years. It means 14 tons per year per one reactor. EDU has four reactors. It means 56 tons per year per powerplant, if I would like to keep reality as much as possible.

But really, I have a bigger problem with (some) special pax category than nuclear fuel and amounts of transported units of various goods of extra-ordinary chains like these.

So, let's say that it is time for revision of list of forbidden chains - and make more (?three) levels of chain prohibition.

Green - chain may appear in game as part of base, as very common chain; suitable for wood, food, coal (unless ecoterorists would protest against it), oil, water, paper, books, meat or so
Yellow/orange - chain may appear in game as add-on, as special chain undersirable for some people; suitable for special goods like nuclear fuel
Red - chain cannot appear in game for dark history reflections
« Last Edit: July 29, 2019, 05:42:59 PM by Václav »

Offline Leartin at

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Re: Hospital chain
« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2019, 04:08:32 PM »
I think you miss the point. Most industries in Simutrans are made to produce as much as possible, so they can be transported by train or ship. However, that usually means transporting them by truck is a bad idea, since there is too much of them. Both prison and cemetary chain only produce a low amount of 'goods', and as such are not suitable for anything but road vehicles, unless you really bundle them. Just like other chains make themself most suitable for trains, these two are for road vehicles.

Now whether they are the best choice thematically can be disputed, but if it wouldn't be in a comic pakset, it could be nowhere. Plus, I can't really think of any other 'good' where you would instantly acknowledge that using anything but road vehicles feels off.

Also, it could be discussed whether a "road only chain" should be in the game at all, since most players tend to prefer trains and might not be happy with a chain where they can't use them. Though I firmly believe it's part of my "job" as a pak designer to make sure all types of transportation receive some love, somehow.

In the end, the pakset is open source, and even if it wasn't, you could easily remove the graveyards and prisons and not be bothered by them.

Offline Václav

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Re: Hospital chain
« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2019, 07:35:21 PM »
I am only worried about using current form of hospital chain as pattern for dark history chains.

Balancing and final step are for else discussion. At least it could be good to show at least a little of hope - that hospitals are not only place of death (however, most deaths happen in hospitals).

I work in hospital - as orderly. Currently on a more or less cardiology intensive care bed ward (but not classic intensive care unit). But I passed also hepatogastroenterology bed ward, oncology ward - and social services. Wherever you see things you would like rather to not see because you cannot change even if you really would like to do it (and I would like to not write about it), losing of friends, losing of dear family members, and many more.

And maybe that for this I would rather like to see a different form.

However, any more exact simulation of healthcare (than only production of patients by practitioners or so, their transport to hospital and changing them into corpses - or supply of hospitals with food or so) could have own pakset with many specific goods.

So, let's close this topic.

Offline Leartin at

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Re: Hospital chain
« Reply #10 on: July 30, 2019, 05:51:00 AM »
Code: [Select]
InputGood[0]=patients
InputFactor[0]=100
OutputGood[0]=deceased
OutputFactor[0]=20
It's not only a place of death, only 1/5th of the hospital patients die in Simutrans. Patients who were in a bad enough state to be brought in via ambulance, mind.

In Austria, half of all deaths happen in hospitals. And that number is somewhat skewed, since so many people who know they are going to die just go/are sent home for their last days. A quarter of people die in homes for the elderly or similar institutions, so that would be the other possible source for deceased. So a hospital just is, realistically, where corpses come from.

As for supplies for hospitals: It's impossible due to how Simutrans works. If a hospital would require eg. medication, patients would not turn into deceased unless they get medicine. (Maybe that's for the better, I would probably let the player transport organs in trucks for cooled goods)

Offline Václav

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Re: Hospital chain
« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2019, 04:23:37 PM »
If a hospital would require eg. medication, patients would not turn into deceased unless they get medicine.
I thought of only supplies of hospitals with medicaments, food or so - instead of producing of deceased.

However, what you wrote (about prodution of deceased after supply by medicaments or so) gives a sense too - in its special way. Medicaments may kill even in hospitals (and I don't think various hospital killers). Still, there are many allergies or unwanted medicaments substitutions.


Hospital chain may have many forms. And by the way, what about to add also maternity house? However, hard to say how this chain would be ended.