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Offline Ranran jp

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[patch]Convoy length bar reloaded
« on: January 22, 2020, 12:27:27 PM »
>>>Japanese EngRish gLeeting template start
Hello. My name is Ranran. How are you? I'm juicy thank you. And you?
Japanese EngRish gLeeting template end<<<

Today I propose a new Jalápagos patch.

The content of this patch is roughly divided into two.
1. Convoy length bar revived in a new form
2. Organize assembling convoy information text to add acceleration distance and acceleration time information



1) Tile occupancy bar
Do not worry. This is a feature that existed in Standard, but Extended has removed it.
Ranran dug it up and improved it. Check it out.



This is named "tile occupancy bar" by Dr. Google translate.

Those familiar with the simutrans system know that a vehicle has a value of length, one tile represented by 16 lengths.
However, since the player cannot see the value in the game, the only option is to estimate the length from the appearance.
The sixth sense determines whether the tile length does not increase even if the vehicle is added.

This bar allows you to visually see how it changes with the operation of the convoy assembler.
Before selecting a vehicle, it can be determined whether the required tiles increase.
It also assists in selecting vehicles so as to minimize waste.

There is something similar to Standard, but with some differences.
- One tile is represented as one block. This makes it easy to understand the total tile length.
- It also supports the removal of vehicles.
  The determined length is grayed out to image the platform (such as concrete blocks and asphalt)
    Expected increase length is represented in turquoise
    Expected reduced length is represented in orange
  (remove does not represent the position of the vehicle to be removed because the decreasing length is hard to understand)
Unfortunately, automatic buy / remove of continuous vehicles is not supported. (´・ω・`)
- It is easy to understand the difference between append and insert. Insert changes the color of the front side.

While you can see the length of the vehicle more visually, you should note that there is a strange specification of simutrans for shorter vehicles, less than half a tile.
Details can be found here and here. In summary, they sometimes lie. It is not a bug in this feature, but a Simutrans's specification.

This tile occupancy bar is coded as gui_tile_occupancybar_t and can be placed in other GUIs. For example, convoy info dialog and convoy detail dialog.


Opinions on which size is preferable will help :)
1 length = 2px ( = 1/16 tile)


1 length = 1px ( = 1/16 tile)


It should be noted that the default size dialog can only display up to 13 tiles for double size.

2) Change layout
Another purpose of this patch is to clean up convoy information and prepare for adding acceleration information. Organize information and make room for it.
It has undergone some challenging changes to save space. Therefore, opinions on each one will be greatly appreciated.

2-1) Made cost and resale value the same row

2-2) Power and weight are the same row
These are closely related items, and this arrangement is the same as standard.

2-3) Warning icon is displayed when power is 0.

This is applicable to max speed, but this time it was done experimentally. When changing the text color of a label, there is a small issue that not only the numerical value and unit but also the entire label changes. Please let the opinion of everyone.

2-4) Separated speed and braking distance

2-5) Added a tooltip and added additional information there.

Added to the label (or moved):
PowerStarting acceleration, acceleration time (plan)
WeightMax. axle load (new)
Max. speedRelationship between maximum speed and weight(moved)
and acceleration distance (plan)
Max. brake forceBraking distance from max speed (moved)
(internal) Changed to calculate and set the correct value for label size in order to display the tooltip correctly.

2-6) Moved the number of vehicles above assembling convoy picture.


The main reason was to secure a display area for the number of station tiles, but at that time the upper area seemed too wasteful because Extended is wider in the depot dialog than standard.

Well, it's somewhat look weird that the start positions of the vehicle name and line name are not aligned.
But it made me aware of opening the linemanegement dialog from the little switch next to the Serves line lol.


If your feedback makes this more refined and approved, I'll work on adding acceleration distance information here. Thank you (´・ω・`)


TODO:
- Add starting acceleration, acceleration distance, and acceleration time information in tooltip (done)
- Disable tile length display on ships and planes (done)
- Make some translation files or modify (this means replacement) them with simutranslater.
(EDIT) This means editing existing translations after implementation
Specifically, remove";" from ;brakes from max.speed in% im

EDIT:
I gave up doing these because of the complexity:
- Bug fix for convoy capacity list count on the replace dialog which reported in another thread
- Add a tooltip to the capacity list to show the relationship between classes and capacity
« Last Edit: January 29, 2020, 12:31:41 PM by Ranran »

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: [patch]Convoy length bar reloaded
« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2020, 01:01:06 PM »
This looks very interesting - splendid work on this. I notice that this deals with some of the same GUI elements as the other series of patches on which I gave detailed feedback yesterday; is there any preference as to the sequence in which these be tested?

As to general feedback on the basis of the descriptions and illustrations without yet having tested, a number of points in no particular order follow.

1. The length display system is splendid: it seems clear and is likely to be very useful.
2. I am not sure whether the colours are as self-explanatory as they could be; but I am not sure whether I can think of anything better. Can anyone else suggest alternative colours that might be clearer? If not, then the colours as specified are probably as good as any other.
3. It is difficult to comment on the layout changes without a screenshot of the entire depot window, but the fragments that I can see above look good.
4. The warning icon for zero power is good, so long as this applies only to a whole convoy, not individual vehicles.
6. There is no problem in having the label "Max speed" as well as the number red when this is zero: indeed, having it all red makes it easier to see.
7. I am not sure about moving some of the information to tooltips. I should like other players' feedback on this.
8. Note that it is planned that, in future versions, the concept of "resale value" will change: instead of selling a vehicle to imagined buyers for an age based proportion of the purchase cost, players will be able either (a) return a newly bought unused vehicle for a full refund; (b) scrap a vehicle for a small income; or (c) sell a vehicle to any other player willing to buy it at a mutually agreed price. I do not know whether this affects how you want to implement this.
9. Adding starting acceleration is interesting; although this is not as useful as having a detailed graph in the depot, I appreciate that the latter would be very difficult and having some indication of a convoy's acceleration is better than nothing, especially if the limitations of this datum be clearly explained to players.

Offline Matthew gb

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Re: [patch]Convoy length bar reloaded
« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2020, 01:52:00 PM »
>>>Japanese EngRish gLeeting template
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Quote
Today I propose a new Jalápagos patch.

JA: すごいです! Translated by Papago
EN: This is great!

Quote
- It is easy to understand the difference between append and insert. Insert changes the color of the front side.

Yes, it is very easy to understand. Overall, the whole convoy length display is really well-designed!  :thumbsup:

Normally when I finish a 3-tile convoy I have to:
- (1) Add a carriage (or desired wagon).
- (2) Add a coal wagon to see if I have reached 4 tiles
- (3) If yes, delete the coal wagon and the carriage from (1) and replace it with an 'end' carriage.
- (4) If no, delete the coal wagon and return to step (1).
This patch would save me a lot of clicking.  :)

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." (Arthur C. Clarke)

Part 1 of this patch is a great improvement: it's magic!  :hat:

Quote
Opinions on which size is preferable will help :)

2 px is better for me. Most PC screens these days are landscape.

Quote
It should be noted that the default size dialog can only display up to 13 tiles for double size.

:o I have never made a Simutrans-Extended convoy this big....do other people?

Quote
2-1) Made cost and resale value the same row
2-2) Power and weight are the same row
These are closely related items, and this arrangement is the same as standard.
2-4) Separated speed and braking distance

These decisions create a clear and logical design, but see my opinion about tool-tips.

Quote
2-3) Warning icon is displayed when power is 0.
This is applicable to max speed, but this time it was done experimentally. When changing the text color of a label, there is a small issue that not only the numerical value and unit but also the entire label changes. Please let the opinion of everyone.

This is an improvement. I support this.

Quote
2-5) Added a tooltip and added additional information there.

I support the use of tool-tips, but I think that the wrong information is in tooltips. When I am building convoys, I need to be able to see Max. axle load, Braking distance, and Weight because I use them to choose the vehicles. If the vehicle's axle load is too heavy for my track or bridges, then I can't use it and I won't buy it. If the braking distance is too long for my signal layout, then I will need to add more carriages with brakes. So I want to be able to see this information as I move my mouse over different vehicles. By contrast, the Max. brake force and Rolling resistance values are 'intermediate' values: they are used to calculate the values that I find interesting. They should be in tooltips. If something else needs to be moved to a tooltip, then I would move Way wear factor. This is only a very small factor in my decision-making.


Quote
2-6) Moved the number of vehicles above assembling convoy picture.
But it made me aware of opening the linemanegement dialog from the little switch next to the Serves line lol.

Good points!

Quote
Disable tile length display on ships and planes

Isn't tile length needed for some canal barges too? I'm not sure.

Offline Ranran jp

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Re: [patch]Convoy length bar reloaded
« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2020, 02:24:52 PM »
Thank you for your thoughts.

Quote
I notice that this deals with some of the same GUI elements as the other series of patches on which I gave detailed feedback yesterday; is there any preference as to the sequence in which these be tested?
Yep, I think there is a possibility of GUI conflicts and manual resolution.
However, I believe it will take some time, considering that other patches also require modification of the pakset. The amount of change in britain pak since last July was huge, and the marge failed. I think the complexity is lower than that. Thus, I think it is better to implement this first.


I updated yesterday's chart, which looks like below.
(6) Improvement of the depot dialog(this thread) ━━━━━┛
↑    ↑
┃  (6')  display-the-starting-acceleration

(7)display-which-livery-scheme-this-vehicle-has

I am planning to integrate two other small patches into this.


Quote
3. It is difficult to comment on the layout changes without a screenshot of the entire depot window, but the fragments that I can see above look good.

I paste a large image. The lower part is currently unchanged. I've made changes in another patch, and I'm planning to incorporate them.

Quote
6. There is no problem in having the label "Max speed" as well as the number red when this is zero: indeed, having it all red makes it easier to see.
In this regard, I was thinking about giving gradual warnings of convoy's max speed. That is, it is the case where the weight is excessive and the speed decreases, but it is not zero. Experimentally it is displayed in orange in the above picture. Currently, warning icons are available in yellow, orange and red.
However, the icon depends on the pakset, so if there is no icon, it will be replaced with the text color. This is the same for power.

Quote
8. Note that it is planned that, in future versions, the concept of "resale value" will change: instead of selling a vehicle to imagined buyers for an age based proportion of the purchase cost, players will be able either (a) return a newly bought unused vehicle for a full refund; (b) scrap a vehicle for a small income; or (c) sell a vehicle to any other player willing to buy it at a mutually agreed price. I do not know whether this affects how you want to implement this.
I don't know exactly what it is, but I think it is possible to display value on labels and put information such as (a) (b) (c) in tooltips. Currently the resale value does not have a tooltip, but it is easy to add.


Quote
2 px is better for me. Most PC screens these days are landscape.
I also prefer 2 px version :)


Quote
When I am building convoys, I need to be able to see Max. axle load, Braking distance, and Weight because I use them to choose the vehicles. If the vehicle's axle load is too heavy for my track or bridges, then I can't use it and I won't buy it. If the braking distance is too long for my signal layout, then I will need to add more carriages with brakes. So I want to be able to see this information as I move my mouse over different vehicles. By contrast, the Max. brake force and Rolling resistance values are 'intermediate' values: they are used to calculate the values that I find interesting. They should be in tooltips. If something else needs to be moved to a tooltip, then I would move Way wear factor. This is only a very small factor in my decision-making.
I think this makes sense, but regarding the braking force, I think that it is close to the specification display such as power and tractive effort.


Quote
Isn't tile length needed for some canal barges too? I'm not sure.
As far as I have confirmed, the marine vessel did not consider its own tile length. Probably the same as a river.

EDIT: speed text color above image is now changed orange red, which seen in the factory info dialog
« Last Edit: January 22, 2020, 05:53:34 PM by Ranran »

Offline Ves

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Re: [patch]Convoy length bar reloaded
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2020, 04:47:03 PM »
That looks really great, Ranran!

I would suggest that the coloring of the reduced speed is in a darker color. That orange on that background is not readfriendly.

I really like the tiles count, it is nice and discrete!

Quote
I support the use of tool-tips, but I think that the wrong information is in tooltips. When I am building convoys, I need to be able to see Max. axle load, Braking distance, and Weight because I use them to choose the vehicles. If the vehicle's axle load is too heavy for my track or bridges, then I can't use it and I won't buy it. If the braking distance is too long for my signal layout, then I will need to add more carriages with brakes. So I want to be able to see this information as I move my mouse over different vehicles. By contrast, the Max. brake force and Rolling resistance values are 'intermediate' values: they are used to calculate the values that I find interesting. They should be in tooltips. If something else needs to be moved to a tooltip, then I would move Way wear factor. This is only a very small factor in my decision-making.

I agree with this comment, that perhaps some of the values would make sense if they where presented in other ways. Since there only 8 positions to show information, the info displayed there should be directly helpfull to the player.
Now we may all be different, some like displays with "elaborated" or "translated" information, while others prefer display in original units. I myself prefer a delicate mix, so the values I understand can be original units, while the rest should be translated so I understand them  :::) :coffee:
Of the current 8 infos displayed there, these 4 I think should be unchanged and presented as is:
Code: [Select]
Cost
Max speed
Weight
Power and tractive effort
The 3 first ones are directly helpfull, and the "Power and tractive effort" is such an universal unit that it would be wrong not to have there.

Code: [Select]
Resale price
I would remove, and instead put it in the tooltip for "Cost", freeing up a slot for other information. The color of the "cost" could perhaps change if the resale price is lowered, just like the speed color is changed. In that slot, perhaps "Wheel weight" could stay?

The three last entries:
Code: [Select]
Max brake force
Rolling resistance
Way wear
... are difficult to interpret. As Matthew, I used the ".... brakes from max speed in xxx m" alot. Now I could take all those parameters and calculate that myself, but ... no  :::)

Instead I would like to have:
Code: [Select]
Max breaking distance: xxx mAnd the tooltip would display Max brake force and Rolling resistance

Offline Ranran jp

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Re: [patch]Convoy length bar reloaded
« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2020, 05:32:02 PM »
Instead I would like to have:
Code: [Select]
Max breaking distance: xxx m
And the tooltip would display Max brake force and Rolling resistance
Probably parameters that vary depending on the loading weight may not fit in the label width, like Max. braking distance: xxx - xxx m
in which case it is preferable to fit in the tooltip.

EDIT: Max. braking distance: xxx-xxx m or brake from max. speed : xxx - xxx m(current text) seems to fit barely.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2020, 05:44:04 PM by Ranran »

Offline Ves

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Re: [patch]Convoy length bar reloaded
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2020, 06:02:15 PM »
Probably parameters that vary depending on the loading weight may not fit in the label width, like Max. braking distance: xxx - xxx m
in which case it is preferable to fit in the tooltip.

EDIT: Max. braking distance: xxx-xxx m or brake from max. speed : xxx - xxx m(current text) seems to fit barely.

The phrase "Max. braking distance" implies that this is the absolute maximum braking distance for the maximum theoretical load and speed, therefore not specifying the unloaded braking distance.
For unloaded braking distance, If you can remove "Max.":
Braking distance: x.xxx - x.xxx m

I dont think we need to tell that it is also from the max speed, as that is rather obvious. Especially if it is called
Max. braking distance: x.xxx m

Offline Ranran jp

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Re: [patch]Convoy length bar reloaded
« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2020, 11:17:38 PM »
Well, acceleration display is finally summarized in the power tooltip (´・ω・`)


I pushed the work so far to my repository. You can test this:
https://github.com/Ranran-the-JuicyPork/simutrans-extended/tree/depot-dialog-improvement

Code: [Select]
Resale priceI would remove, and instead put it in the tooltip for "Cost", freeing up a slot for other information. The color of the "cost" could perhaps change if the resale price is lowered, just like the speed color is changed. In that slot, perhaps "Wheel weight" could stay?
Cost and resale value may be the same value, so I think it's better to put them in the same group.
I considered putting the maintenance at the resale value instead.
In my opinion, Rolling resistance is the least necessary of the eight labels because acceleration can now be confirmed. And what I want to put instead is Axle load.   :-*
The combination of label and tooltip must be related. Which label is better for rolling resistance?

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: [patch]Convoy length bar reloaded
« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2020, 12:09:16 AM »
Thank you for the progress on this. The overall window does look good. I do not have time to test this myself to-night, but one query if I may regarding the colours of the speed text: it is common for steam locomotives in particular not to be able to reach their maximum speed even with a relatively modest load, so careful thought will be needed as to when to start giving colours here. I also agree with Ves that the orange is hard to read - there is a dark orange colour defined somewhere that might be better.

Offline wlindley us

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Re: [patch]Convoy length bar reloaded
« Reply #9 on: January 23, 2020, 01:48:54 PM »
Power has two sensible values (Watts, Newtons), but why are there two values both in Tons for weight? This is confusing. I would rather see only one weight value and the Axle Load.

Offline Freahk

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Re: [patch]Convoy length bar reloaded
« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2020, 01:50:35 PM »
Newton is not a unit for power! It's a unit for force.

The two different weight values are unloaded weight and loaded weight.
Not quite sure if overceowding is included in loaded weight.

Offline wlindley us

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Re: [patch]Convoy length bar reloaded
« Reply #11 on: January 23, 2020, 02:16:09 PM »
Ah.  (We know Newtons is a unit of figs!)

Instead of six digits of precision (down to 2lb! which is not useful), how about rounding up to whole tons and making the second number clear and useful:

450.000t, 471.480t450t (472t loaded)

Offline Elemental

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Re: [patch]Convoy length bar reloaded
« Reply #12 on: January 23, 2020, 02:24:04 PM »
Those length bars would be a great addition!
In my opinion, Rolling resistance is the least necessary of the eight labels because acceleration can now be confirmed. And what I want to put instead is Axle load.
With that, the new layout looks good to me. Maybe put rolling resistance with axle load then?
450.000t, 471.480t → 450t (472t loaded)
That would be a good thing for heavy vehicles like trains, but for the early horse coaches and packhorses and such, higher precision is required.

Offline Ranran jp

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Re: [patch]Convoy length bar reloaded
« Reply #13 on: January 23, 2020, 02:55:28 PM »
Thank you for your thoughts  :)

(7)display-which-livery-scheme-this-vehicle-has
Since the integration of this patch was finished last night, need to confirm that behavior.
Check the link for details.


Warning display changed as follows:




Tile occupancy bar grid size is now automatically adjusted.



About layout of convoy information:

Define the position of the label like a spreadsheet.
Code: [Select]
[table]
[tr][td]A1:[/td][td]B1:[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]A2:[/td][td]B2:[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]A3:[/td][td]B3:[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]A4:[/td][td]B4:[/td][/tr]
[/table]

The layout of the patch currently being worked on has the following layout (the brackets are in the tooltip)
A1:Cost/Maint.B1:Resale Value
A2:Power (acceleration)B2:Weight (Axle load)
A3:Speed (speed@weight)B3:Rolling resistance
A4:Max. brake force (brakes from max. speed distance)B4:Waywear factor


Quote
With that, the new layout looks good to me. Maybe put rolling resistance with axle load then?
Thank you for advice :)
Then, I suggest the following layout
A1:Cost (Resale Value)B1:Maint.
A2:Power (acceleration)B2:Weight
A3:Speed (speed@weight)B3:Axle load (Rolling resistance)
A4:Max. brake force (brakes from max. speed distance)B4:Waywear factor

Another option is to put the Waywear factor in the B1 or B2 tooltip and place a brake distance on B4.
Is the (Resale) Value better than Cost since the assembled convoy is already purchased? This probably needs to consider James's plan.

Quote
450.000t, 471.480t → 450t (472t loaded)
That would be a good thing for heavy vehicles like trains, but for the early horse coaches and packhorses and such, higher precision is required.
Perhaps it's better to display decimals only if it's less than 100t?

Offline Matthew gb

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Re: [patch]Convoy length bar reloaded
« Reply #14 on: January 23, 2020, 02:56:59 PM »
Well, acceleration display is finally summarized in the power tooltip (´・ω・`)

Thank you; it is good to see your different patches being integrated.  :)
Even if your acceleration charts are added to the convoy window, the acceleration information should be displayed here, because the convoy window is not available until after we buy the convoy and send it out of the depot.

Quote
I pushed the work so far to my repository. You can test this:
https://github.com/Ranran-the-JuicyPork/simutrans-extended/tree/depot-dialog-improvement

This builds and runs fine for me on Linux as of #3db6928 (though I can see you are writing more code right now!).
Quote
In my opinion, Rolling resistance is the least necessary of the eight labels because acceleration can now be confirmed. And what I want to put instead is Axle load.   :-*

Yes, I agree. Rolling resistance is less important than axle load.

Quote
I think this makes sense, but regarding the braking force, I think that it is close to the specification display such as power and tractive effort.
[...and from a different post...]
The combination of label and tooltip must be related. Which label is better for rolling resistance?
Quote
Probably parameters that vary depending on the loading weight may not fit in the label width, like Max. braking distance: xxx - xxx m
in which case it is preferable to fit in the tooltip.
the "Power and tractive effort" is such an universal unit that it would be wrong not to have there.

There have been many helpful comments about the values to be displayed. But there is a principle that has perhaps been lost. Can we all agree that the top panel should display information about the convoy? And information about individual vehicles should be displayed in the bottom panels? That seems logical to me, but maybe there are other perspectives.

Some of you may remember Top Trumps cards from your childhood:

I think it is clear that some of us enjoy seeing the 'Top Trumps' or 'intermediate' values in Simutrans. But I think the best place for all these 'intermediate' values is in the bottom panel, because they are primarily about vehicles. So we should definitely keep power and tractive effort, but the primary place for them should be in the bottom panel. I know that sometimes players will be interested to see the total values, e.g. tractive effort for all the EMUs in a whole convoy, but that is the right information to place in tooltips. IMHO the priority for the top panel should be convoy values, especially those with an economic effect and which are not displayed elsewhere.

Quote
Cost and resale value may be the same value, so I think it's better to put them in the same group.
I considered putting the maintenance at the resale value instead.
8. Note that it is planned that, in future versions, the concept of "resale value" will change: instead of selling a vehicle to imagined buyers for an age based proportion of the purchase cost, players will be able either (a) return a newly bought unused vehicle for a full refund; (b) scrap a vehicle for a small income; or (c) sell a vehicle to any other player willing to buy it at a mutually agreed price. I do not know whether this affects how you want to implement this.

In the light of these future plans, would it perhaps be better to replace the resale value variable in the UI with a broader market value? At the moment market value would always be set to resale value. But in the future, the market value may change according to the option (a, b or c) chosen from a drop-down list or other UI element. The current Cost value could be renamed list price, because it is not necessarily the price that the player will actually pay/receive.

[/quote]
Power has two sensible values (Watts, Newtons), but why are there two values both in Tons for weight? This is confusing. I would rather see only one weight value and the Axle Load.

This puzzled me too, but I think it's unladen (no cargo) and laden (with cargo) weight respectively. Ranran, could you rewrite this label at something like this, please?:
Code: [Select]
Weight: NN.NNNt unladed, NN.NNNt laden
Here is EDIT (cross-post): was Ranran's layout with tooltips in [teletype],

Cost (maintenance)Resale value
Power in kW and kN [starting accleration])Weight unladen and laden[Max. axle load]
Max. speed in km/h [maximum weight at max. speed]Rolling resistance
Max. brake force [braking distance at max speed]Way wear factor

My suggested layout:
Market value (maintenance)[list price]Max. axle load
Max. speed in km/h [maximum weight at max. speed]Weight unladen and laden with labels[Way wear factor]
Starting acceleration[Power in kW and kN](Blank to allow room for starting acceleration)
Braking distance at max speed[Max. brake force; Rolling resistance](Blank to allow room for braking information)

I don't like way wear factor being in a tooltip, but the other information is more important.

Photo: National Railway Museum
[/list]
« Last Edit: January 23, 2020, 03:07:49 PM by Matthew »

Offline Freahk

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Re: [patch]Convoy length bar reloaded
« Reply #15 on: January 23, 2020, 04:14:35 PM »
That would be a good thing for heavy vehicles like trains, but for the early horse coaches and packhorses and such, higher precision is required.
Let's simply display at least, say 4 digits, so we get 1.000 or 10.00 or 100.0 or 1000 or 10000 and so on, so we get alwas the same relative precision, which should always be sufficient.

because the convoy window is not available until after we buy the convoy and send it out of the depot.
Wasn't there considerations adding somehow adding it to the depot window?
I must admit, that I am most interessted in that kind of data before sending a vheicle out of the depot.
If we got that graph in the depot window, I don't think we neeed power, force and starting acceleration.
Otherwise, starting acceleration in combination with the speed where the power limit kicks in would be really helpful for any kind of transport that stops quite often.

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: [patch]Convoy length bar reloaded
« Reply #16 on: January 23, 2020, 06:01:32 PM »
Some brief further comments at this stage (note that I have not had a chance to test yet).

1. I agree with Freahk that it is better to use variable precision for the weight display depending on the weight of the convoy.
2. The new speed warning looks good, but I suggest that there be a fairly generous threshold (perhaps especially for steam locomotives) so that this does not display every time that a steam locomotive cannot achieve its maximum possible speed with a modest load, as players need to know that this is not necessarily a problem (indeed, doing this may help players to understand that it is not a problem whereas at present they do not always understand this).
3. It would be helpful to have, if practical, an indication of what the two weights (loaded/unloaded) mean.
4. The changing length of the station occupancy bars with the changing length of the convoy is a good feature - note that some long freight trains might be as many as 64 wagons long.
5. The eventual aim for the vehicle sale/scrapping feature will be for there to be either a refund, a scrap value or a sale to another player at a player set price; so "market value" is perhaps not helpful here. One would expect one button for either "scrap" or "return for refund" depending on whether the vehicle is new and unused or not. The selling to other players would be a different part of the UI (but how different is yet to be determined). It would be interesting to know from players how important that it is for them to see the resale value of the whole convoy in the depot window, rather than of individual vehicles when disassembled or in the detail window.

In any event, this is splendid work.

Offline Freahk

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Re: [patch]Convoy length bar reloaded
« Reply #17 on: January 23, 2020, 06:15:27 PM »
It would be interesting to know from players how important that it is for them to see the resale value of the whole convoy in the depot window, rather than of individual vehicles when disassembled or in the detail window.
Yet, I did not care about resale value tbh. Vehicles get replaced, when needed instead of replaced when... Well I don't know? When they are still worth a lot?
Sometimes I use some trains for service on an other line, but that decision making is harldy based on the resale value.
With that new feature in mind, I guess the resale value of each individual vehicle will become a lot more important, however the resale vaues for the whole convoy won't have much importance I guess.
List price, however is of much more importance to me, as I usually build up a few different convoys in the depot that I expect to fit to lines requirements and then compare the costs, inclusing the list price for sure. Especially when starting a new company, the list price is a quite important information.

Offline Matthew gb

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Re: [patch]Convoy length bar reloaded
« Reply #18 on: January 23, 2020, 08:05:32 PM »
Yet, I did not care about resale value tbh. Vehicles get replaced, when needed instead of replaced when... Well I don't know? When they are still worth a lot?
Sometimes I use some trains for service on an other line, but that decision making is harldy based on the resale value.

This is true for trains. But the resale value of ships can be very important, since it can be a substantial portion of the company's net worth.

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With that new feature in mind, I guess the resale value of each individual vehicle will become a lot more important, however the resale vaues for the whole convoy won't have much importance I guess.

Yes, that is a good point. All the prices are really vehicle information, not convoy information. Especially since the cost of purchases is taken from your account when you click on the vehicle (bottom) panel.

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List price, however is of much more importance to me, as I usually build up a few different convoys in the depot that I expect to fit to lines requirements and then compare the costs, inclusing the list price for sure. Especially when starting a new company, the list price is a quite important information.

I work in the same way and I agree that it's important to know the purchase price when you start a new company. But until the convoy departs for the first time*, list price (currently 'Cost') = resale price. That's why I'm arguing that 'resale price' should be called 'market value'. At the moment, it always reflects the money you would pay or receive in exchange for the convoy. If you return the convoy to the depot at a later point, the 'Cost' value tells you the historical cost: how much you would pay for a new convoy with the same vehicles. That is a useful piece of information, but I don't use it very often. I would prefer to be able to see the acceleration or braking distance immediately.

* Maybe the whole first year actually, I'm not sure.

Offline Ranran jp

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Re: [patch]Convoy length bar reloaded
« Reply #19 on: January 25, 2020, 10:10:12 AM »
Quote
This puzzled me too, but I think it's unladen (no cargo) and laden (with cargo) weight respectively. Ranran, could you rewrite this label at something like this, please?:
Code: [Select]
Weight: NN.NNNt unladed, NN.NNNt laden
I found an error in the existing code.
It should be min_freight_weight instead of max_freight_weight. This did not display the format that was supposed to be displayed.
What should have been displayed as "Weight: xxx.xxx t, xxx.xxx t-xxx.xxx t" was never displayed.

In this case, there may not be enough room to add that two label - unladed and laden. When considering translation in other languages, it is better not to make the space very tight. (In this case Japanese is fine though)

btw, what is the difference between "laden" and "loaded"?

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Let's simply display at least, say 4 digits, so we get 1.000 or 10.00 or 100.0 or 1000 or 10000 and so on, so we get alwas the same relative precision, which should always be sufficient.
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1. I agree with Freahk that it is better to use variable precision for the weight display depending on the weight of the convoy.
Now it is automatically adjusted as you can see by comparing with the image above.




Quote
2. The new speed warning looks good, but I suggest that there be a fairly generous threshold (perhaps especially for steam locomotives) so that this does not display every time that a steam locomotive cannot achieve its maximum possible speed with a modest load, as players need to know that this is not necessarily a problem (indeed, doing this may help players to understand that it is not a problem whereas at present they do not always understand this).
Warnings are given in three stages.
(1)  :warning: max speed is 100% to 50%, (2) max speed is less than 50%, (3) max speed is 0.
If the power of the leading vehicle of convoy is steam, a warning will be issued one stage lower. That is, (1) is ignored and a yellow warning mark is displayed in (2). (3) is red font in all case.

Quote
Wasn't there considerations adding somehow adding it to the depot window?
I must admit, that I am most interessted in that kind of data before sending a vheicle out of the depot.
If we got that graph in the depot window, I don't think we neeed power, force and starting acceleration.
Sure, I think that's the ideal style, but it requires work and requires somebody to code.


About resale value:

What I want to know in the current game specification is the difference between the value and the resale value. If the difference is 0, it means it is new. Then pressing the sell button does not make any loss.
The obsolete / royal blue color on the top panel is independent of whether it is a used vehicle.
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The color of the "cost" could perhaps change if the resale price is lowered, just like the speed color is changed.
I agree with Ves and it is useful to change the color here. But what color will match?
« Last Edit: January 25, 2020, 10:22:18 AM by Ranran »

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: [patch]Convoy length bar reloaded
« Reply #20 on: January 25, 2020, 10:21:17 PM »
Thank you for your work on this. I have just tried to test this, but cannot find the appropriate Git branch - I had understood from this post that "display-the-starting-acceleration" would be the branch to test, but that branch appeared only to have the starting acceleration display. I could not find a branch called "Improvement of the depot dialog". Can I ask you to clarify which branch that this is on?
« Last Edit: February 02, 2020, 03:22:54 PM by jamespetts »

Offline Ranran jp

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Offline Ranran jp

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Re: [patch]Convoy length bar reloaded
« Reply #22 on: January 28, 2020, 04:44:14 PM »
Quote
With that new feature in mind, I guess the resale value of each individual vehicle will become a lot more important, however the resale vaues for the whole convoy won't have much importance I guess.

Yes, that is a good point. All the prices are really vehicle information, not convoy information. Especially since the cost of purchases is taken from your account when you click on the vehicle (bottom) panel.
I am thinking about resale value, convoy's resale value display is needed because when sell button is pressed sell the all vehicles in the convoy.
I think that we can save the space of the resale value by displaying the resale value on the sell button.
The bottom four buttons are uselessly wide. Because extended depot window is wider than standard. So there is enough space to display the resale value.
If not, I want to make the buttons narrower and add another row of capacity.

EDIT: I managed to somehow display the resale value in the button. Such buttons are common in games, but I don't know how they are originally written in English because I don't play games in English. Is "Sell for xxx $" written correctly?
I imagine this would change to scrap in James's plan.
And I don't think the meaning of "Cost" is right here, but what should I do? I think this shows new value, but only after it has already been paid.
Any advice would be helpful. Thanks. (´・ω・`)
« Last Edit: January 29, 2020, 02:21:21 PM by Ranran »

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: [patch]Convoy length bar reloaded
« Reply #23 on: February 08, 2020, 08:27:12 PM »
My apologies that I have not yet had a chance to test this properly: I wanted to complete work on the private car routing first. Now that I have done that, I should be grateful if you could check this for compatibility with the latest master. Thank you.

Offline Ranran jp

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Re: [patch]Convoy length bar reloaded
« Reply #24 on: February 11, 2020, 04:00:40 PM »
I have successfully merged the master branch without any problems and it seems to be working fine. You can test it.  ;)


Offline Freahk

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Re: [patch]Convoy length bar reloaded
« Reply #25 on: February 11, 2020, 04:24:17 PM »
Nice, and I se a tiny little new feature, the +/-n vehicles, which is qalso uite useful :)
Btw. do you have any solution for very long vehicles? It seems that currently there is only space for ~12 tiles in the bar.

Offline Ranran jp

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Re: [patch]Convoy length bar reloaded
« Reply #26 on: February 12, 2020, 12:51:20 AM »
It seems that currently there is only space for ~12 tiles in the bar.
Tile occupancy bar grid size is now automatically adjusted.
Automatic scaling is performed as described above.