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Author Topic: Outdated vehicles cannot be upgraded.  (Read 330 times)

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Offline Vladki

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Outdated vehicles cannot be upgraded.
« on: January 27, 2020, 08:30:01 PM »
On stephenson siemens game, is allowed byuing outdated vehicles. But they cannot be upgraded if the upgrade is outdated too.
Specifically in the air depot at peache street airport there are two Fokker F27-500, there exists also high density version. When they were new, one could upgrade from low-density to high density and vice versa. But now when they are outdated, one can only buy them, not upgrade.

Offline Ranran

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Re: Outdated vehicles cannot be upgraded.
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2020, 03:34:24 AM »
This seems to have nothing to do with timeline setting.
Because even if timeline is turned off, Fokker F27-500 cannot be upgraded. Another railcar can upgrade the Outdated vehicle correctly. So I think it is a problem specific to Fokker F27-500.

Offline Vladki

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Re: Outdated vehicles cannot be upgraded.
« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2020, 12:18:11 PM »
This seems to have nothing to do with timeline setting.
Because even if timeline is turned off, Fokker F27-500 cannot be upgraded. Another railcar can upgrade the Outdated vehicle correctly. So I think it is a problem specific to Fokker F27-500.

If I remember correctly I have done this upgrade sucessfully while it was in production.

Offline Ranran

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Re: Outdated vehicles cannot be upgraded.
« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2020, 12:52:01 PM »
If I remember correctly I have done this upgrade sucessfully while it was in production.
Please start another game from 1970. You will find that you cannot upgrade each version of Fokker F27-500 with any allow buying obsolete vehicle setting.

However, its dat file is indeed registered in upgrade[0]= and turns green in upgrade mode.
On the other hand, when I confirm the Fokker F27-500 with another patch in progress, I don't see any upgrade information or upgrade symbols that should be displayed. This patch retrieves and displays a list of upgrades on the Maintenance tab.

Also, as shown in the image, another airplane has a proper upgrade symbol.

I suspect that for some reason the upgrade target could not be gotten or registered correctly.

EDIT:
add the link to its dat file
https://github.com/jamespetts/simutrans-pak128.britain/blob/b0e8d8f36ec66e5838945a18cd3f98e0d00f3692/air/fokker-f27-500.dat
It must be noted that this kind of upgrade breaks game balance in current specification as I have repeatedly said.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2020, 02:43:13 PM by Ranran »

Offline Vladki

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Re: Airplanes cannot be upgraded.
« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2020, 08:30:16 PM »
So I tried some more - it seems to be not related to obsoletenes... BAE ATP, Boeing 737-300, 747-400, Airbus A320, all have similar two versions which should upgrade to each other, but it does not work... And they are currently in production. I think it is the one with upgrade symbol on ranran's screenshot.

So either this is limited to airplanes, or to vehicles that can be up/down-graded tehre and back.


It must be noted that this kind of upgrade breaks game balance in current specification as I have repeatedly said.

Why is this breaking the balance?  I thought such "upgrades" could be used to other situations:
- converting couchette sleeper cars to normal seating
- using vehicles for different goods: converting open wagons from bulk to long goods. Like this one: https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mojett.cz%2Fwp-content%2F2016%2F09%2FDSC_0089.jpg&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mojett.cz%2F39049&docid=nz50ZVV2PFSDeM&tbnid=zugOY_VoFxoj-M%3A&vet=10ahUKEwjY9PT20qnnAhWHnxQKHSzFCJQQMwhoKBIwEg..i&w=560&h=315&client=firefox-b-e&bih=893&biw=1280&q=vagon%20eas-u&ved=0ahUKEwjY9PT20qnnAhWHnxQKHSzFCJQQMwhoKBIwEg&iact=mrc&uact=8

If upgrades are not good for this then what would you suggest? Cargo holds as on ships?

Offline Freahk

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Re: Outdated vehicles cannot be upgraded.
« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2020, 09:18:01 PM »
Cargo holds as on ships?
Indeed sounds like a much better idea than upgrading and would even be extremely realistic!

Airplanes, at least modern ones are entirely customizable by clients (the airlines), so allowing airplanes to "couple" to, let's say 5 seating units would be great to allow for mixed class airplanes in any combination that is desired by the "client" (the player).

It must be noted that this kind of upgrade breaks game balance in current specification as I have repeatedly said.
Upgrading a vehicle will reset the purchase date thus it will worth a lot more than it should.
However, that's another issue/bug that should get fixed some day and should not prevent paksets from using upgrades.

Offline Ranran

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Re: Outdated vehicles cannot be upgraded.
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2020, 10:49:35 AM »
Why is this breaking the balance?  I thought such "upgrades" could be used to other situations:
- converting couchette sleeper cars to normal seating
- using vehicles for different goods: converting open wagons from bulk to long goods.
Yes such changes are worthwhile. The current problem, however, is that even such doubtful upgrades can change value significantly.
Code: [Select]
cost=9200000
upgrade_price=5000
If the upgrade cost is cheap like that airplane, selling after the upgrading will return the purchase cost as if selling a new vehicle.
So 5000$ is the price you will rent the plane for 30 years. 9200000 $ is collateral but will be returned when returned.
I've elaborated here before.

Quote
If upgrades are not good for this then what would you suggest?
I suggested to take over the production date with upgrade and made a patch but it was not acceptable.
As described in that thread, players can update at any time, which creates inequity if the date of manufacture or value is not inherit after the modification.
If they are upgraded immediately after being manufactured or if they have almost no value and then upgraded, do the two have the same value paying the same upgrading cost?
The overhaul system, if any, will affect whether the modification includes an overhaul, ie whether the last overhaul date is reset. It is not realistic that the production date is reset.
If you just change the seat layout, change the type of luggage, use upgrade instead of changing the livery, these obviously do not involve overhaul.
But a major upgrade may involve an overhaul.

And even if the scrap system doesn't sell the vehicle as easily as it is now, the asset value of the vehicle makes sense. Conflicts in company reputation.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2020, 11:09:31 AM by Ranran »