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Outdated vehicles cannot be upgraded.

Started by Vladki, January 27, 2020, 08:30:01 PM

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Vladki

On stephenson siemens game, is allowed byuing outdated vehicles. But they cannot be upgraded if the upgrade is outdated too.
Specifically in the air depot at peache street airport there are two Fokker F27-500, there exists also high density version. When they were new, one could upgrade from low-density to high density and vice versa. But now when they are outdated, one can only buy them, not upgrade.

Ranran(retired)

This seems to have nothing to do with timeline setting.
Because even if timeline is turned off, Fokker F27-500 cannot be upgraded. Another railcar can upgrade the Outdated vehicle correctly. So I think it is a problem specific to Fokker F27-500.
ひめしという日本人が開発者達の助言を無視して自分好みの機能をextendedに"強引に"実装し、
コードをぐちゃぐちゃにしてメンテナンスを困難にし(とりわけ道路と建物関連)、
挙句にバグを大量に埋め込み、それを知らんぷりして放置し(隠居するなどと言って)別のところに逃げ隠れて自分のフォーク(OTRP)は開発を続けている
その事実と彼の無責任さに日本人プレイヤーは目を向けるべき。らんらんはそれでやる気をなくした(´・ω・`)
他人の振り見て我が振り直せ。ひめしのようにならないために、らんらんが生み出したバグや問題は自分で修正しなくちゃね(´・ω・`)

Vladki

Quote from: Ranran on January 28, 2020, 03:34:24 AM
This seems to have nothing to do with timeline setting.
Because even if timeline is turned off, Fokker F27-500 cannot be upgraded. Another railcar can upgrade the Outdated vehicle correctly. So I think it is a problem specific to Fokker F27-500.

If I remember correctly I have done this upgrade sucessfully while it was in production.

Ranran(retired)

#3
Quote from: Vladki on January 28, 2020, 12:18:11 PMIf I remember correctly I have done this upgrade sucessfully while it was in production.
Please start another game from 1970. You will find that you cannot upgrade each version of Fokker F27-500 with any allow buying obsolete vehicle setting.

However, its dat file is indeed registered in upgrade[0]= and turns green in upgrade mode.
On the other hand, when I confirm the Fokker F27-500 with another patch in progress, I don't see any upgrade information or upgrade symbols that should be displayed. This patch retrieves and displays a list of upgrades on the Maintenance tab.

Also, as shown in the image, another airplane has a proper upgrade symbol.

I suspect that for some reason the upgrade target could not be gotten or registered correctly.

EDIT:
add the link to its dat file
https://github.com/jamespetts/simutrans-pak128.britain/blob/b0e8d8f36ec66e5838945a18cd3f98e0d00f3692/air/fokker-f27-500.dat
It must be noted that this kind of upgrade breaks game balance in current specification as I have repeatedly said.
ひめしという日本人が開発者達の助言を無視して自分好みの機能をextendedに"強引に"実装し、
コードをぐちゃぐちゃにしてメンテナンスを困難にし(とりわけ道路と建物関連)、
挙句にバグを大量に埋め込み、それを知らんぷりして放置し(隠居するなどと言って)別のところに逃げ隠れて自分のフォーク(OTRP)は開発を続けている
その事実と彼の無責任さに日本人プレイヤーは目を向けるべき。らんらんはそれでやる気をなくした(´・ω・`)
他人の振り見て我が振り直せ。ひめしのようにならないために、らんらんが生み出したバグや問題は自分で修正しなくちゃね(´・ω・`)

Vladki

So I tried some more - it seems to be not related to obsoletenes... BAE ATP, Boeing 737-300, 747-400, Airbus A320, all have similar two versions which should upgrade to each other, but it does not work... And they are currently in production. I think it is the one with upgrade symbol on ranran's screenshot.

So either this is limited to airplanes, or to vehicles that can be up/down-graded tehre and back.


Quote from: Ranran on January 28, 2020, 12:52:01 PMIt must be noted that this kind of upgrade breaks game balance in current specification as I have repeatedly said.

Why is this breaking the balance?  I thought such "upgrades" could be used to other situations:
- converting couchette sleeper cars to normal seating
- using vehicles for different goods: converting open wagons from bulk to long goods. Like this one: https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mojett.cz%2Fwp-content%2F2016%2F09%2FDSC_0089.jpg&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mojett.cz%2F39049&docid=nz50ZVV2PFSDeM&tbnid=zugOY_VoFxoj-M%3A&vet=10ahUKEwjY9PT20qnnAhWHnxQKHSzFCJQQMwhoKBIwEg..i&w=560&h=315&client=firefox-b-e&bih=893&biw=1280&q=vagon%20eas-u&ved=0ahUKEwjY9PT20qnnAhWHnxQKHSzFCJQQMwhoKBIwEg&iact=mrc&uact=8

If upgrades are not good for this then what would you suggest? Cargo holds as on ships?

Mariculous

Quote from: Vladki on January 29, 2020, 08:30:16 PMCargo holds as on ships?
Indeed sounds like a much better idea than upgrading and would even be extremely realistic!

Airplanes, at least modern ones are entirely customizable by clients (the airlines), so allowing airplanes to "couple" to, let's say 5 seating units would be great to allow for mixed class airplanes in any combination that is desired by the "client" (the player).

Quote from: Ranran on January 28, 2020, 12:52:01 PMIt must be noted that this kind of upgrade breaks game balance in current specification as I have repeatedly said.
Upgrading a vehicle will reset the purchase date thus it will worth a lot more than it should.
However, that's another issue/bug that should get fixed some day and should not prevent paksets from using upgrades.

Ranran(retired)

#6
Quote from: Vladki on January 29, 2020, 08:30:16 PMWhy is this breaking the balance?  I thought such "upgrades" could be used to other situations:
- converting couchette sleeper cars to normal seating
- using vehicles for different goods: converting open wagons from bulk to long goods.
Yes such changes are worthwhile. The current problem, however, is that even such doubtful upgrades can change value significantly.
cost=9200000
upgrade_price=5000

If the upgrade cost is cheap like that airplane, selling after the upgrading will return the purchase cost as if selling a new vehicle.
So 5000$ is the price you will rent the plane for 30 years. 9200000 $ is collateral but will be returned when returned.
I've elaborated here before.

QuoteIf upgrades are not good for this then what would you suggest?
I suggested to take over the production date with upgrade and made a patch but it was not acceptable.
As described in that thread, players can update at any time, which creates inequity if the date of manufacture or value is not inherit after the modification.
If they are upgraded immediately after being manufactured or if they have almost no value and then upgraded, do the two have the same value paying the same upgrading cost?
The overhaul system, if any, will affect whether the modification includes an overhaul, ie whether the last overhaul date is reset. It is not realistic that the production date is reset.
If you just change the seat layout, change the type of luggage, use upgrade instead of changing the livery, these obviously do not involve overhaul.
But a major upgrade may involve an overhaul.

And even if the scrap system doesn't sell the vehicle as easily as it is now, the asset value of the vehicle makes sense. Conflicts in company reputation.
ひめしという日本人が開発者達の助言を無視して自分好みの機能をextendedに"強引に"実装し、
コードをぐちゃぐちゃにしてメンテナンスを困難にし(とりわけ道路と建物関連)、
挙句にバグを大量に埋め込み、それを知らんぷりして放置し(隠居するなどと言って)別のところに逃げ隠れて自分のフォーク(OTRP)は開発を続けている
その事実と彼の無責任さに日本人プレイヤーは目を向けるべき。らんらんはそれでやる気をなくした(´・ω・`)
他人の振り見て我が振り直せ。ひめしのようにならないために、らんらんが生み出したバグや問題は自分で修正しなくちゃね(´・ω・`)

Vladki

I dare to revive this topic. 

TLDR: the problem is that upgrades on airplanes do not work at all.  (All previous assumptions about obsolete or there-and-back upgrades were wrong).

Long story here: I noticed that "there-and-back" upgrades do not work for planes - usually it is "upgrade" from low to high density version of the same aircraft and back. But same kind of upgrade works well for trains - class 801 can be upgraded to class 800 (add diesel engines), and also class 800 can be upgraded to 801 (remove diesel). Why does it work for trains, but not for planes? I have checked other modes of transport too. Narrowgauge - NWNG open / NWNG composite works well too. (name is WHR-open, but translation is NWNG open...) Found also more such upgrades: BR-class 166 and 153 - upgrade to trolley service, and its removal - both work well.
So I tried to find if there are any true upgrades of planes (not just rearranging seats), and found vickers-vanguard-952 -> 953. Not working either. I even removed the possible "upgrades" between 952 and 953 variants to keep only upgrade from 952 to 953, but it did not work either. So this bug report should be renamed to Aircrafts cannot be upgraded.

Let's skip the economics and cheating question for now. This is something that should work anyway, and we can fix  the economy balance later.

P.S. along with that I found a few vehicles that can upgrade to themselves:

./narrowgauge/fr-sentry-brake.dat:name=fr-sentry-brake
./narrowgauge/fr-sentry-brake.dat:upgrade[0]=fr-sentry-brake

./narrowgauge/single-fairlie-superheated.dat:name=SingleFairlie-superheated
./narrowgauge/single-fairlie-superheated.dat:upgrade[0]=SingleFairlie-superheated

./narrowgauge/manning-wardle-2-6-2t-superheated.dat:name=manning-wardle-2-6-2t-superheated
./narrowgauge/manning-wardle-2-6-2t-superheated.dat:upgrade[0]=manning-wardle-2-6-2t-superheated

./narrowgauge/quarrymens-carriage.dat:name=quarrymens-carriage-enclosed
./narrowgauge/quarrymens-carriage.dat:upgrade[0]=quarrymens-carriage-enclosed

./trains/gwr-4500-superheated.dat:name=gwr-4500-superheated
./trains/gwr-4500-superheated.dat:upgrade[0]=gwr-4500-superheated

./air/airbus-a319.dat:name=airbus-a319-high-density
./air/airbus-a319.dat:upgrade[0]=airbus-a319-high-density

./air/vickers-vanguard-952.dat:name=vickers-vanguard-952-piece
./air/vickers-vanguard-952.dat:upgrade[0]=vickers-vanguard-952-piece
./air/vickers-vanguard-952.dat:upgrade[1]=vickers-vanguard-952-cool

./air/vickers-vanguard-952.dat:name=vickers-vanguard-952-cool
./air/vickers-vanguard-952.dat:upgrade[0]=vickers-vanguard-952-piece
./air/vickers-vanguard-952.dat:upgrade[1]=vickers-vanguard-952-cool