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Offline Vladki

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private road sign
« on: February 22, 2020, 12:48:08 PM »
Hello, the private road sign appearance is not very useful at the moment. It can be easily confused with choose sign or highway sign. It would be better to have a barrier like appearance, like it has in standard pak128.britain:

https://sourceforge.net/p/simutrans/code/HEAD/tree/pak128.Britain/signals/images/privateroad-barrier.png
https://sourceforge.net/p/simutrans/code/HEAD/tree/pak128.Britain/signals/roadsign.dat?force=True

Code: [Select]
# private sign
obj=roadsign
name=roadbarrier
copyright=??? and prissi
cost=500
waytype=road
is_private=1
offset_left=0
intro_year=1000
image[0]=images/privateroad-barrier.0.0
Image[1]=images/privateroad-barrier.0.1
Image[2]=images/privateroad-barrier.0.2
Image[3]=images/privateroad-barrier.0.3
Icon=> images/privateroad-barrier.0.4
Cursor=images/privateroad-barrier.0.5

Offline jamespetts

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Re: private road sign
« Reply #1 on: April 10, 2020, 01:44:26 PM »
The problem with the barrier is that this is coded in an odd way: it shows as being raised if one is playing as a player to which access is allowed, but lowered otherwise. This means that one will frequently see vehicles driving through the barrier in a closed position, which is likely to be confusing to players and looks very bad.

Offline Vladki

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Re: private road sign
« Reply #2 on: April 10, 2020, 02:20:21 PM »
If passing through the barrier is a problem, then we can just rotate the old sign properly. (And perhaps draw a line over the road ?)
Now it looks that the sign is facing sideways if you are allowed to use the road, which is confusing as well.

I personally like to see if it is open for me without clicking on the sign to get details. And thus it will allways seem that someone is passing even if it is forbidden, be it a physical barrier or just some signal lights.

Offline jamespetts

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Re: private road sign
« Reply #3 on: April 15, 2020, 11:22:00 AM »
If passing through the barrier is a problem, then we can just rotate the old sign properly. (And perhaps draw a line over the road ?)
Now it looks that the sign is facing sideways if you are allowed to use the road, which is confusing as well.

I personally like to see if it is open for me without clicking on the sign to get details. And thus it will allways seem that someone is passing even if it is forbidden, be it a physical barrier or just some signal lights.

A rotated sign is an interesting idea. Would anyone be interested in producing some example graphics for this?

Offline Vladki

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Re: private road sign
« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2020, 07:15:32 PM »
Hello, just a question. Private gate for trains is a barrier across the track. Why a barrier across the road is not acceptable?

Offline Freahk

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Re: private road sign
« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2020, 11:11:50 PM »
Imho those "wrong" barrier graphics would not be too bad.
In fact, it would be best if the graphics toggled "open" whenever a vehicle passes but it's really not a high priority thing. It's most important to directly see if one can use that road or not.

Offline jamespetts

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Re: private road sign
« Reply #6 on: April 23, 2020, 10:02:07 AM »
Hello, just a question. Private gate for trains is a barrier across the track. Why a barrier across the road is not acceptable?

The only reason that this persists is because there are no alternative graphics available and it has never been a priority to replace this with something more suitable.

Offline Freahk

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Re: private road sign
« Reply #7 on: April 23, 2020, 10:24:23 AM »
Maybe changing the color to some grayscale when your company can pass it might be a compromise?

Offline Vladki

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Re: private road sign
« Reply #8 on: April 23, 2020, 10:26:53 AM »
Well - alternative exists - it is the barrier fro pak-britain for standard.

How about using the primary player color for allowed passage, and secondary for forbidden passage? Or vice versa?

Offline Freahk

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Re: private road sign
« Reply #9 on: April 23, 2020, 12:27:10 PM »
How about using the primary player color for allowed passage, and secondary for forbidden passage? Or vice versa?
Imho not a good idea as player color can be the primary of one player and secondary of an other player.
On stephenson-siemens this is the case for quite many colors.

Offline jamespetts

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Re: private road sign
« Reply #10 on: April 23, 2020, 01:42:52 PM »
The problem is that the thing that is being represented (viz/ whether the currently active player's vehicles may pass) is not something that in reality is represented in any physically manifest way, so any way of attempting to do this will produce anomalies.

Vladki - that alternative, I believe, is another barrier which has the same problem.

Offline Freahk

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Re: private road sign
« Reply #11 on: April 23, 2020, 02:09:01 PM »
The problem is that the thing that is being represented (viz/ whether the currently active player's vehicles may pass) is not something that in reality is represented in any physically manifest way

That's absolutely true, but it's still a game and we really need a somehow visualised version of that information.
Always clicking such signs to check if we may pass is quite bad gameplay.

Currently, the private road sign gets rotated for that purpose, which is also quite unrealistic and, in addition, quite confusion as it can quickly be confused with a missplaced sign.

A long-term approach might be a new overlay just like the "show track reservations" overlay, that will color all inaccessible ways red or something like that, based on player access permisions and placed private road signs, but as long as we don't have this, it should be an ease to replace the rotated image by a greyed out, not rotated one.

Offline Vladki

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Re: private road sign
« Reply #12 on: April 23, 2020, 03:19:03 PM »
For pak128.cz I originally had this sign. The small bar under the sign is in player color. In normal world it would be white with text specifying exceptions (like only for locals, firefighters, supplies for local shops, private road, etc...) But that does not show whether you are allowed to go or not. So how about showing the current player colored sign if you are allowed to go, and some no-entry sign if passage is forbidden? It will show clearly if you can pass, it will not be so awkward as cars passing through a barrier, just cars ignoring a sign. OTOH sign change while changing players is awkward too.


Offline Freahk

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Re: private road sign
« Reply #13 on: April 23, 2020, 04:16:20 PM »
just cars ignoring a sign.
Leave that little white bar underneath and assume it states "except for <everyone who is actually allowed to pass>" and nobody is ignoring any signs.
If such a sign exists in the UK, that might be the best option.
Maybe the pole should be in player color, so we can immediately see who does not permit us to use that road, but in that case clicking for information does not hurt too much I guess.

Edit: I found this in a quick search, so imho we should go for it.

Offline jamespetts

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Re: private road sign
« Reply #14 on: April 23, 2020, 04:23:04 PM »
Freahk's suggestion is a good one for private road signs after the Warboys style signs were introduced in the 1960s. We will also need a version from circa 1930 onwards and a pre-1930 version (which might be a simple wooden sign board).

Offline Freahk

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Re: private road sign
« Reply #15 on: April 23, 2020, 04:30:44 PM »
Freahk's suggestion is a good one
Thanks, but I just did some reasearch, it was Vladkis idea.

Do you have any sources how old roadsigns looked like in Britain in early era?
It's quite hard to find such historical data and it's even harder to find such data from Britain when Google locates you in Germany.

Offline Vladki

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Re: private road sign
« Reply #16 on: April 23, 2020, 05:26:18 PM »
Yes that's the sign I stared with. Originally the sign was not configurable, so the color of player was enough to indicate who is allowed to pass. But If we use it as is, it won't be immediately clear if one is permitted to pass or not. In that case, we can just use the current sign, properly aligned.

Offline jamespetts

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Re: private road sign
« Reply #17 on: May 13, 2020, 12:13:42 PM »
Here is an example of some signs from the 1930s (I suggest signs of this type be introduced in 1930 to coincide with the introduction of the Highway Code in that year):

&quot;Safety First Signs&quot; - old UK road signs, c1938 by mikeyashworth, on Flickr

Earlier signs would not have been standardised - I suggest a wooden board on wooden posts, available from the dawn of (game) time. The modern type should be introduced in 1964.

Offline Freahk

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Re: private road sign
« Reply #18 on: May 13, 2020, 01:32:59 PM »
I want to see these policeman traffic lights  ;D

I have recently found this manual of pre-worboys signs https://www.flickr.com/groups/97272861@N00/discuss/72157626918140102/
"no passing" seems to be a red dot, which can be completed with text.

It's quite interessting that the modern red ring had a different, much more general meaning on pre worboy signs. It seems to generally mean "there is some reastriction, please read the text"

Offline jamespetts

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Re: private road sign
« Reply #19 on: May 13, 2020, 01:59:04 PM »
That is useful indeed.

Offline Vladki

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Re: private road sign
« Reply #20 on: May 13, 2020, 02:20:26 PM »
I want to see these policeman traffic lights  ;D
https://sourceforge.net/p/simutrans/code/HEAD/tree/pak128.CS/infrastructure/road_signs/Policajt.png
https://sourceforge.net/p/simutrans/code/HEAD/tree/pak128.CS/infrastructure/road_signs/RoadSigns.dat?force=True
(dat shared with other signs)

I think we have diverged from the original request:
- make it visible on first sight if my vehicles are allowed to pass the private road sign or not.
But we have diverged to details on how it should look like in different eras...

My request was to use some sort of barrier, but James objected that cars passing through the closed barrier look weird. If there is just a sign that looks the same all the time, I have to click on the tile to see the list of  players who are allowed to pass. So what I ask is - how to make a sign that shows somehow if the passage is free or not, and at the same time, vehicles that pass through do not look funny... And remember, railway private gate is already a barrier, and nobody complained about that so far.

Offline Freahk

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Re: private road sign
« Reply #21 on: May 13, 2020, 02:39:30 PM »
I thought we had agreed on showing the "no pass except ..." sign if we are not allowed to pass and the private road sign if we are allowed to pass?
Or maybe always show the private road sign on one side of the road and "no pass except ..." on the other side, if we are not allowed to pass.

Offline Vladki

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Re: private road sign
« Reply #22 on: May 13, 2020, 02:49:18 PM »
Maybe then what is the proposed look of "private road sign" and "no pass except ... sign"
In my imagination they are the same...

Offline Freahk

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Re: private road sign
« Reply #23 on: May 13, 2020, 03:20:15 PM »
No, these are different!
A public road with a "no passing, except ..." is still a public road.
A private road is a road under private ownership. In Germany, the  StVO ~road traffic law is not even neccessaily valid on such roads, although usually a small additional text will state that the StVO is valid there.

In the UK it doesn't seem to be much different. There doesn't seem to be standardised private road sign. i just googled for it and fond plenty of such signs.

Maybe James can give a more definite answer about the situation in the UK.

Offline Ranran

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Re: private road sign
« Reply #24 on: May 13, 2020, 08:38:38 PM »
I want to see these policeman traffic lights
Interesting.
I think a new system is needed to properly render things like police signals.
There is a frontImage and backimage but no "middleimage".
In other words, it is displayed in priority to the car in the back lane but hidden in the car in the front lane. There is currently no such thing in simutrans.
policeman signal pak(png) has a middle image with a police officer drawn in the center for only two directions.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2020, 08:59:28 PM by Ranran »

Offline Vladki

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Re: private road sign
« Reply #25 on: May 13, 2020, 08:51:43 PM »
No, these are different!
A public road with a "no passing, except ..." is still a public road.
A private road is a road under private ownership. In Germany, the  StVO ~road traffic law is not even neccessaily valid on such roads, although usually a small additional text will state that the StVO is valid there.
But in both cases, the sign would be the same - circular, with red border, white centre, and an explanatory sign telling who is allowed to pass. In simutrans scale it would be just few pixels so you could not distinguish if the sign says "private road, vehicles with landowners permission can pass" or "not valid for public transport and firefighters". So in my view a sign about private road or public with limited access is the same.

Offline Freahk

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Re: private road sign
« Reply #26 on: May 13, 2020, 08:56:02 PM »
No.
As mentioned, at least in Germany there is not even a standardised private road sign.
When googling around, it seems that it's not standardised in the Uk either.
It might just look like the current private road sign.

https://www.privateroads.co.uk/

Just scroll down to see a few examples of private road signs, that are according to the domain, all used somewhere in the UK.
In fact, none of these examples are a white circle with red borders.

Offline Vladki

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Re: private road sign
« Reply #27 on: May 13, 2020, 09:59:58 PM »
OK, maybe in UK it is so. Fact is that in CZ, there is no reason to mark a private road as such unless you want to forbid its usage. (CZ law says that by default, even private road can be used by anyone) So if you want to limit access, you have to put a proper sign there: e.g.: https://www.nakole.cz/images/clanky/aa/g/1223-zakaz.jpg  (label says something like: private road, only for forest owner's use). So it is no different to sign on public road, that excludes some traffic.