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Offline Spenk009

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19th century GER carriages
« on: February 19, 2020, 04:14:23 PM »
I have started work on 19th century GER carriages, from the good source that is the GER Society. In trying to create a coherent set of carriages, I've decided to list the intended vehicles in type of manifesto and ask some questions. Initially this is the first types of carriage valid until Holden's contributions in 1886.
source

Type 1
Quote
Construction may be divided into two distinct phases, the first occurring between 1858 to 1861, a period in which the 1st and 2nd class carriages were 21ft long, the 1st/2nd composites 24ft, all compartment stock. Brake vans were 16ft in length but no 3rd class carriages appeared at this time as it was the practice to 'cascade' the superior classes to thirds and replace them with new construction. A pair of mail vans with 22ft bodies appeared in 1858 and a solitary 24ft long family saloon in 1859
...6 1st class smoking saloons, the first to be completed by the newly formed GER. The 24ft body contained 3 spacious compartments in which fixed tables were placed.
The third class passenger was at last catered for in new building by the delivery of 130 carriages with 5 compartments in a 24ft body, a length adopted for further 1st class vehicles with 4 compartments. More 2nd's and composites appeared but orders for brakes from 1864 were to the improved length of 21ft. A solitary bullion van, 16ft long was also completed, probably for traffic to the Continent.

I would opt to create for the Type 1 of 1858/9-1867/6:
two 24ft first class: four compartment (relatively low comfort), three compartment (relatively high comfort)
one 24ft five compartment second class
one 24ft third class
one 24ft (one first, four second) composite
two brake vans: 16ft, and 21ft
one 22ft mail van (or 24ft, if that is acceptable)
one 24ft saloon introduced 1859/1, seats 6 "very high"/class

Type 2 - 4 wheel stock
Quote
quantities of 5 compartment 3rd's (D400), 24ft 3ins long appeared together with four compartment 1st's 24ft in length and a small batch of 2nd's with 21ft bodies.
...
From late 1870 rolling stock building resumed in earnest. The chief advance was the introduction of 26ft long stock for 1st class (D101), 2nd class (D300) and 3rd class (D400A) carriages with the continued construction of the 24ft 3ins long 3rd (D400) for main line use. A pair of 1st/2nd composite slip carriages with 24ft bodies was built...
Quote
1876 saw a new range of carriages introduced, all to a body length of 27ft. This proved to be significant because this dimension became the standard for virtually all the remaining GER 4 wheelers...
I would leave the original vehicles, for simplification. If people have any objection to this, they are produced for a while longer it seems.

Type 2A 1867/7 - 187/9:
one 24ft (+3in) five compartment third class (minimally higher comfort than previously, available until 1875/9)
one 24ft four compartment first class (specs like the four compartment above)
one 21ft four compartment second class
one 26ft four compartment first class (available from 1870/10)
one 26ft five compartment second class (available from 1870/10)
one 26ft five compartment third class (available from 1870/10)
one 22ft composite brake (averaging the two kinds, 21' 8" & 22' 8")

6 wheel
Quote
Bromley quickly settled on conventional flitched timber underframes and a body length of 31ft 6ins for the remainder of his 6 wheel stock. These comprised 30 4 compartment 1st class (D102), 20 1st and 2nd class composites with a central passengers luggage van (D200), 100 5 compartment 2nd's (D303) and 25 brake vans (D509).

Type 2A 1880/1 - 1886/9:
one 33ft two compartment saloon carriage (six wheels, pax: five "very high", four 3rd class)
one 31ft6in four compartment first class
one 31ft6in five compartment second class
one 31ft6in four compartment composite
one 31ft6in brake van
one 34ft four compartment composite lavatory
one 34ft six compartment third class (available when ordered around 1883/3)


Wheels are mentioned as 3ft6in in diameter, which other vehicles would feature this size?
What livery would have been used? The livery for GER in simuconf.tab mentions "# Assume all coaches varnished unless otherwise stated." Would I therefore apply the same varnished teak tone as on the LNER?
« Last Edit: March 10, 2020, 04:32:23 PM by Spenk009 »

Offline Matthew

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Re: 19th century GER carriages
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2020, 05:56:48 PM »
This looks like a great contribution to the community and that GER website appears to be an ideal resource for your project.

I'm not qualified to comment on the technical aspects of your proposals, like liveries (though the Wikimedia Commons might help in later stages). But as a player, I would be grateful if you could consider making a 3rd brake composite (D501, 22 or 23ft) for the Type 2A (1867-77) list, as there are not many braking options in this era. This page has a little more information about the design including a preview of a drawing. You can view the construction of a D501 model here.

BTW I was bemused to see that the GER had a hearse composite with compartments for both the living and the dead.  ??? IIRC pak192.comic has corpses as a cargo type, but I don't think even they have gone that far.....

Offline Spenk009

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Re: 19th century GER carriages
« Reply #2 on: March 01, 2020, 01:45:45 PM »
Thank you Matthew for the links, they have been very substantial in helping me revise several aspects of the draft carriage images I attached. You're an amazing contributor to the forum, I appreciate it very much.

I would be grateful if you could consider making a 3rd brake composite (D501, 22 or 23ft) for the Type 2A (1867-77) list, as there are not many braking options in this era

Yes, this is certainly missing and in the mean time I have found examples of those too ( 1 , 2 )

One of the larger issues is a lack of drawings for several carriages. Mainly the 16ft and 21ft brake carriages and the saloon are missing. Also, would the brake vans have footrests along their length? I've seen examples of both, so it would appear that this is down to the company back in the day.


So far, the first batch (Type 1) is "complete" and can be viewed/tested on the master branch of my repository, here. I've noticed that the carriages visually match up to the "Four wheel" carriages rather than the LBSCR contemporaries, is this the correct approach?

Offline jamespetts

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Re: 19th century GER carriages
« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2020, 12:02:51 AM »
I have split this topic as requested.

Thank you for your work on this: I have been preoccupied trying to deal with the private car routing performance issues, but your work on the pakset is much appreciated. The GER is a most interesting and sometimes underappreciated railway, and it is splendid to have an increasing selection of carriages for it.

Offline Spenk009

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Re: 19th century GER carriages
« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2020, 03:27:22 PM »
Thank you for splitting the topic. The private car routing performance has been an interesting topic to read through, but I have yet to try testing the branch as I've lost several savegames in the last months and use relatively little time to try playing the game.

I've completed the second section of vehicles, pushing the timeline through the 1870s up to the appearance of six wheel carriages.




There are several carriages introduced in 1876 to the length of 27ft. Two diagrams of composites are mentioned as 217 & 233. If anyone has an inkling to the compartmental arrangement, I would be most grateful for a comment regarding this or any other questions answered.

Offline Spenk009

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Re: 19th century GER carriages
« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2020, 05:11:06 PM »
Hi all, hope you're safe. Here's a little update on the GER carriages, where there are now the six wheeled carriages.


Earlier carriages to the length of 31ft 6in look closer aligned than the later 32ft tumblehouse designs.

The first carriages allow conversion to 3rd class as well as direct purchase of a 3rd class for convenience. All 4 wheel carriages are upgradeable to an according fitted type, allowing them to be moved into suburban services in the 1880s and 1890s. While unfitted vehicles can be purchased until Worsdell's arrival in 1882, the fitted vehicles were introduced in 1880 and so for a while both options can be purchased. An observation is, that the 6 wheeled coaches stayed fairly in line with each other from start to finish. Their types were fairly set from the beginning on, mainly due to Holden's approach of standardization and loss of relevance after his departure.

Missing is a "3 coach dining car set for the Continental service" (clerestory) and several less regular vehicles, that I have no images of. The next stage would then be the bogie carriages introduced at the turn of the century. I wish I were faster at this, but I spend hours over hours trying to get github to work and usually resign at some stage without being able to upload anything. Here is a branch with the changes. The Comfort Calibration Overview file is beyond my capabilities of merging properly.

Offline jamespetts

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Re: 19th century GER carriages
« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2020, 11:48:34 AM »
Thank you for your work on this. I noticed that I had omitted to incorporate some earlier changes, including the quint-arts, which I have now done, but I have noticed that these seem (together with the existing quad-arts) to be significantly higher than existing stock as in the below example:


I do not believe that these were in reality significantly higher than contemporary rolling stock, so I should be grateful if you could look into this.
As to the latest GER carriages, these look good, but I notice that there are a large number of unresolved merge conflicts in the latest commit, e.g.

Code: [Select]
+<<<<<<< HEAD
 payload[3]=6
+=======
+payload[3]=0
+payload[4]=6
+>>>>>>> e855e601a... Added GER 4 wheel and 6 wheel carriages, ranging from 1858 to 1903.
You will need to resolve these (including selecting, in each case, which of the conflicting lines that should be retained and which discarded) before I can merge/test/incorporate these. Also, you will need to make sure that the comfort calibration spreadsheet (which has now been automatically updated with the quint art branch) will not face merge conflicts when merging with this branch.
The screenshots of the new GER carriages do look good, however. Thank you again for your work on this.

Offline Spenk009

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Re: 19th century GER carriages
« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2020, 09:04:01 AM »
... the quint-arts, which I have now done, but I have noticed that these seem (together with the existing quad-arts) to be significantly higher than existing stock as in the below example:
As to the latest GER carriages, these look good, but I notice that there are a large number of unresolved merge conflicts in the latest commit, e.g.
...
You will need to resolve these (including selecting, in each case, which of the conflicting lines that should be retained and which discarded) before I can merge/test/incorporate these. Also, you will need to make sure that the comfort calibration spreadsheet (which has now been automatically updated with the quint art branch) will not face merge conflicts when merging with this branch.
One of the types I remember re-scaling to a larger height and width (by 25%), due to apparent inconsistency in size. I'll see how this can be reversed and will try to resolve said merge conflicts.
As to the Comfort Calibration spreadsheet: I have added in the items by hand and pushed the additions, now github won't allow me to catch up to upstream/master due to a merge conflict (my own push is dated 01.03., upstream is 16.02.). Could we convert this to a database type approach that github can read and work with, or will this not solve the issue as github only sees changes in a file in its entirety, rather than allow changes to isolated sections in a file?

Offline jamespetts

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Re: 19th century GER carriages
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2020, 01:03:22 PM »
Thank you for this; you may want to check whether you have inadvertently scaled the quint-arts by 25% twice.

As to the comfort calibration spreadsheet, are you aware of any file formats that can work in the way that you suggest that will not lose any significant functionality in the current spreadsheet?