Pak64.UK Development Thread and Diary

[KneeOn]

This thread is for a new pak I am creating - I've painted for Pak64 in the very distant past and the fact it is 'early' work very much shows when compared to what this Pak will aspire to be.
EDIT 09/05/2020 I have renamed it from Pak64.UK to Pak64.UK Development Thread and Diary to accurately reflect what it actually is.
EDIT 25/05/2020 I have made a Twitter and a Facebook page to post smaller updates which will be duplicated here. This is to increase the range of platforms Simutrans is on and to regenerate interest in the game.
Both caccounts be reached via @Pak64GB

Intro

I followed Carls Great Britain simulation, and spent many hours playing with his train set on the required older version of Experimental. I then moved on from Simutrans, coming back in the last week or two. I installed Extended and the recent work to incorporate Standard features and the work between the version of Experimental on the GB sim and now is immense.
I want to bring those trains in to the Extended era, with a whole new built-from-scratch pakset which focuses on CRAP - Contrast, Repetition, Alignment and Proximity, taken from this guide on Cities: Skylines. https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=528318290 and also by pak128.britain - a fantastic example of CRAP.
Features
There will be a number of features on this pak set, yet to be formally named.
The first one is the size. The first release will hopefully have over 100 city buildings. This is because of the "R" and "C" not being mutually exclusive, as shown by these first example pictures. Although i've drawn 1 building and made 1 modification, I've got six buildings which allow different neighbourhoods which can fit together with different brick types without breaking the style of the street, or be used to create single-style streets. This will extend to COM and IND.
The second is also size - in terms of era and type. Tall flats and offices, sprawling suburbs and densely populated inner cities are all going to be catered for, allowing for (initially) pre-war, post-war and modern cities, eventually having a full 1750-2050+ timeline.
Thirdly is stations. There will be two types of station platform - classic and modern. From this there will be several building styles such as pre-war, post war, BR, NSW/IC/RR, privatisation and modern. Furniture on the platform will include bare, basic shelter, closed shelter, small building and so on. This will allow for widely varied station types which will be visually more engaging and help create unique stations which reflect the towns or areas they are serving. The wa-station pak inspires this design plan.
Infrastructure such as signals, depots and sidings will provide even greater visual depth - depot buidings will match the actual depots to help you create large T.M.Ds like Hornsey, Three Bridges, Northam, Crewe and Swindon. They too will be era-orientated to reflect the range of buildings on the railway.
Industries will be painted to match this style, to let you build large industrial estates and hubs or to meet the challenge of running a full and expansive freight network.
Buses, planes, boats, trucks and trams will be part of later releases, with focuses during future updates on each type of transport and adding to our city buildings. Tram-specific stations will be painted to give a more natural feel for any tram network.
Attractions will hopefully reflect modern and classic Britain. Buildings in London such as the Shard, Sushi Samba, The Gherkin, Cheesegrater, Scalpel all will be part of city skylines as the game progresses but smaller attractions like the Oxo tower, Piccadilly Circus, The Angel of the North and other, national landmarks will be painted either as Attractions or Monuments. A longer term monument update will be to have all 20 current Premier League football stadia, maybe working down the football league - certainly this will be much further down the line but hopefully gives you a hint of the size and scale of the plan for this Pak and the desire to have high quality content.
Roadmap and attachments
This is anticipated to take many months to get a first release sorted - I have reached out to two painters about the vision. I've opted to release the first images along with the test images I used when seeking help to let you see where this will go, for feedback and to offer out to anyone who wants to paint some more information about styling.
The buildings already painted for the Pak are a red, yellow and brown brick terraced house and a variant with a loft conversion. The windows are night-time lit.
I've also included are two signal boxes, modern and classic, the inspiration for the first houses and an office building.
Finally, i'm attaching prototypes for the platform styles and an example of modern and classic shelters.
Please provide feedback, suggestions and if you want to get involved and find out more about the design principles which will underpin this Pak to create the really consistent, easy to paint style please PM me.
Once i've built enough residential buildings (future updates will be posted on this thread with the progress of the build), commercial offices and industrial units will be painted.
Stations will be next with the assorted tracks and infrastructure alongside it.
Attractions then follow.
At some point i'll have a semi-playable set.

[wlindley]

Excellent! You might consider using the "composite building" approach for your buildings over 1x1 size. Which is to say, render each 1x1 building-block of a larger building, Lego-style, for assembly in your datfile rather than as sliced renders. For example,



is an early draft of what became the Stone-Building group in our pak128.  From those pieces, a variety of churches, universities, follies, and other Medieval and Gothic structures all are built with lines in the dat. 

At some point I would like to modify the makeobj program so that "player colo(u)rs" in industries will change to industry mapcolor ranges, which would permit a dozen different shops to use a single rendering...

[KneeOn]

I thought you just reused graphics, this is most useful and interesting!
I'll read up on dat files tomorrow after I've painted my small block of flats, thank you!
EDIT
The aforementioned block of flats, started last night and finished tonight. As always, all four rotations and snow cover.
Partially inspired by the "council flats" in pak.128 - garages under the flats. This is also partially inspired by the Barbican - a brutalist and listed housing estate built in the north west of the City of London. This estate was built on the largest land leveled during the Blitz and is Europe's largest arts centre.
As per the first round of houses, the other colours attached aspire to reflect different materials - grey concrete and light brown/beige stone slabs.
I'll be sorting out a naming convention in due course!
EDIT 2:Another set of buildings, detached with a garage in yellow, red and brown again.
Total built in the last 2 days is now at 4 buildings with 3 variants.
Any feedback about the style is much appreciated!
EDIT 3: Another set of buildings.
This time 5 variants of a standard block of flats, housing across 6 floors with 4 flats per floor. Red, yellow, brown bricks and concrete and stone slab
16 City buildings down, another 84 to go!
EDIT 4: Yet another flat, this time its a bit more modern. Red cladding straddles an entry door and staircase windows. The lower penthouses share a wrap around balcony while the top penthouse has its own wrap around balcony. The middle and upper front 'main' flats have their own balcony.
This might get a further colour change tomorrow, looking at possibly having lighter material for cladding - I'm keen to not recycle models in styles which don't suit the building to artificially bump the city building count up.

[KneeOn]

Another day, another building. I was hoping to do this and another bigger residential property but finished work 2 hours late so wasn't able to.
It's the semi-detached red/brown/yellow, with a drive. 4 rotations, winter version included as per normal.
While I churn out these graphics, it has hit me that I should do a few tests - i'll get these pak'd and then run them in game just to make sure they line up correctly and fix any graphics faults I discover - I imagine the buildings are probably out by a pixel here and graphics made before I discovered colour map on GIMP (which allows direct swaps, and the low colour count lends its self to this function to be able to churn out graphics much faster!) may have odd pixels of the wrong shade.
I need to remove the tile template lines and i'm aware of this - these posts are to show the progress, style and feel of the houses so I can hopefully get feedback and make changes to improve the pakset prior to the very far off first launch.
As we reach the limits of 64x64 sized tiles, with a few upper market detached and semi detached properties, short flats and apartments etc we will soon move on to low commercial!
In other development tests, i've done a scale test using the class 800 as a marker for the size of Carls trains - i'll post that one tomorrow or over the weekend so hopefully you'll get a feel for how everything will work with the trains i'm hoping to use by default.
I've you've read the above posts once, please do go back - I follow the 24 hour between double post rules so often edit in more pictures. There may be buildings you've not seen yet.
Thanks for reading and taking an interest in this project - I know a lot gets promised and unfortunately life gets in the way and stops many excellent projects from being finished. Any painters who want to get involved and like the style, please do drop me a PM - I can send templates and test beds to show how i've put these together along with colour palettes and we can work on a list of buildings you want to contribute

[KneeOn]

Hello,
Another building is done. There would be at least two or three more if my Facebook wasn't hacked and I wasn't stuck in a cycle of being unable to log in to any device because Facebook no longer recognises any of my devices!
It's a simple building, "Stacked Houses" - these could be described a low flats, tenements or something similar. Three floors of houses, with access via ground floor front doors or up an internal staircase.
This building is designed to look cheap, a bit ugly, a bit blocky with very little to say for its self - just outside the rich inner city, just outside the rich suburbs and normally council run. I have decided to make it harder for my self however by making it require four rotations for the boxes, roof acccess door and by making it so doors only showed on two sides. This is partially inspired by the flats at Motspur Park, directly next to the railway line a short distance down from Raynes Park station in South West London, or the flats a short distance down from London Bridge on the Neckinger Estate.
Currently being worked on (as in when I get on the train to work tonight) is a small brown brick, red tiled, detached house with front patio and rear garden with grass on the side of the house not part of the property. This is a detached version in the style of houses in West Hove, south of Portland Road where there is a fair amount of money. This is a large, 6 bedroom sized house. A semi version of this may be developed as well, to allow more densely populated but upmarket family homes to break up the cheap and council run or new build style houses and flats without losing the density that organically built, victorian onwards towns in the UK have. The red terracotta tiles give a really nice, older, more expensive feel that will start to break up the monotony of the roofing so far (I hope!).
As mentioned we are starting to reach the end of the first batch of 64x64 properties. I thought i'd disclose whats next:

   
• The last residential properties - the more up market houses and the low rise modern flats of which one has already been painted and posted. Houses are getting fairly slick and so I might draw a new house every now and again while going through the rest of the pre-release list if time allows to bump up that contrast but allow for greater repetition and alignment.
• MAKEOBJ TESTING AND SCREENSHOTS!
• Commercial properties - rows of terraced shops much like new-town style high streets first started, small fast food outlets built post-2000, smaller offices (both older and glass fronted, metal encased inner city types.) Another type of office which is growing in popularity is the new-build residential building style. Many new builds include a community centre, offices and a small shop where there are enough houses. The offices for this will match the style of a new build house but have a building shape more like the demo office I painted. Older, Victorian offices will be attempted too - their building work tends to be detailed and i'll have to consider how to impart the height and grandeur of these buildings in to 64 pixels. Currently a 5px floor to ceiling scale is used. I know some high rises use a much, much smaller one and that'll be a consideration
• MAKEOBJ TESTING AND SCREENSHOTS!
• The first low industrial buildings will follow. Industrial plots in the UK are both very contrasting between individual estates and between individual buildings within a single estated. They're also very repetitive in that they generally conform to only a few types of buildings where the insides are re-purposed and outside receives a level of customisation. There will be at least 4 if not more colours of basic workshop/warehouse in that corrugated metal style. This will be a 'filler' painting to give your industrial units a run down and expansive feel while contributing a little to the passenger flow. Small factories, yards, storage and other ancillary buildings will be painted. This will, I hope, give the industry factories that generate goods a proper home with a real 'Industrial Park' feel
• MAKEOBJ TESTING AND SCREENSHOTS!

Note, this will not be the end of the residential development, a lot more highrise flats are planned. These will include the high rise council type both post-war, 70's/80's and modern style and the more trendy and prettier flats of glass, cladding, balconies which aren't built in to the brick work etc. Lastly, luxury flats will be painted - all glass, all very expensive and the type of new builds in the style of One Blackfriars. These will be 64x128 but very few will be as big as that. The 128 tall buildings will be to give the cities you connect a real skyline that can be as unique as the city you live in. This will be in a future update however - 64x64 is the order of the day for the next few months of painting but it should mean a really big Skyline Update as well as more incremental updates with each big release.
Also note the block/underlining of testing is more of a reminder for me to actually get around to writing .dat files... nothing to be too excited about!
Lastly, and really good news for the pakset, Carl is happy for his trains to be distributed. I've asked about sources so when the time comes I can update all .dat files for extended before looking at balancing.

Boring stuff you probably won't care about unless you want to paint for this paksetWhat follows now is just a diary of sorts to help me keep track of what is going on, what is done, what is to do so people who do wish to paint for this set know where the project is at internally, rather than just where/how development to a release is going -
There are 23 painted buildings which require a touch up such as getting rid of the tile guide lines. Another at least 2, the currently worked on detached in brick and possibly painted white stone, is to follow bringing up to at least 25 residential low-rise houses and flats today or tomorrow. I reckon there's another 10 that could be painted.
A naming convention has been settled on. [BuildingType][BuildingNumber]_[TextureType]_[BuildingName][BuildingStyle][TypeNumber] for example: RES1_RedBrick_TerraceModern and RES1_RedBrick_TerraceModern_2 are the terrace new builds. Type 2 has the loft conversion. I envisage this being portable to COM and RES.
Five styles have been textured - Red, Brown, Yellow brick, Concrete, Stone Slab. There are a few more - painted white, painted colours as per requirements, modern cladding, lattice, metal, glass. These will be developed as the building type gets created
Balancing is currently not an issue, getting buildings painted is. Balancing will come with lots of studying the documentation, internal testing and a beta release.
I have at least 6 big updates in mind and these are not in order:The Rail update - if the initial release doesn't incorporate everything I have in mind for railways, this will be the update which fills in the missing stations, signal boxes, depot equipment, signals and so onThe Bus Update - I do not plan on releasing much bus related content at first - only enough to play a balanced game at the most. A full bus update with suitable bus and truck related buildings such as bus station buildings (Peterborough, Barnsley, Victoria for example), yards, depots etc. The Sea Update - ferry travel is underestimated in the UK - several locations run riverboats or ferries to other parts of the UK and I think this should be included in a specific update to allow fully functional and realistic travel hubs. No major work will be done pre-version 1 on ferries.The Airport Update - very little if any airport work will be released at first but again, regional air travel and international air travel will be an important element once this update is done. The Building Update - the aforementioned 64x128 buildings as well as much expanding and diversifying the skyline of everyone's map. There will be some buildings released on their own as updates and with the other major planned updates to break up the monotony of painting one type of building for a long stretch and to keep the pak developing and looking better for everyone who plays, not just those who use boats, planes or trams.The Tram Update - giving dedicated tram way, signalling, stop and stations for complete tram networks to run
Although this is a very fluid roadmap - cities, trains and some buses are the priority - any painter who wants to paint something listed is welcome to do so.
As always, if you read this post do check back after the next post is put up - you will miss any edited updates such as new buildings

[jamespetts]

How splendid! Very best wishes with developing this - it is always good to see new paksets.

[Carl]

Will be following this with interest. Great work so far!

[KneeOn]

COVID-19 has put a downer on these days off - I should have been away in Amsterdam!
No matter, I've managed to find a free bit of time this evening to finish off and attach some more new buildings which are painted.
The previously mentioned red-tiled, brown/painted building and an ultra modern wooden bungalow with lots of wood slats and a swimming pool!
As always 4x winter/summer.
I really like the cream painted one - I think it moves the set away from being naked brick work and brings some variation which I hadn't been able to really bring in.
The wood bungalow is another building I think adds another bit of really needed variation which gives us something to add contrast to the cities.
That's 27 buildings across 10 types comprising a mix of houses, flats and a bungalow! If you're just getting in to this for the first time or you are reading this message having not re-read entries there plenty of edited posts with more buildings to check out.
Feedback and criticisms are very welcome.

[KneeOn]

The first batch of completed residential buildings have had half their images beta-tested! Big news during these tough times. I'm a keyworker and the new timetable removed tables from my trains so work has been a bit slower lately - limited to writing out dat files and learning how to compile them rather than painting. There are three more blocks of flats - one attempted glass front which is now just a concrete block, a coloured cladding flat currently in red and lastly the cladded flat with an angled loft block which provides a bit more variation. Below is the beta paks. There are some points:   

   
• The brick stacked houses has a problem that it rendered the wrong image - poor dat writing which I will change in due course   

   
• The roofs look a bit bland - the tiles are too close together in colour   

   
• The yellow bricks look better with dark windows so this will be changed

   
• Lawns and vegetation need re-visiting. The lawns are boring and the vegetation is too bright. I might even make the lawn transparent to match the ground tile.   

   
• The colour scheme in general is too bright possibly - this will need checking against Carls trains because this pak is all to give them a true-to-style UK environment to be used and the work is to match them   

   
• Some roofs appear too low with the roof tiles orientated  like - rather than | as seen on others. I may re-draw - roofs as | which will change shape and by having both, we add variation and uniformity at once.   

   
• The terraced properties have a small gap. This is in a British style but not the one I was aiming for - continuous building. I will add another building in the various styles to close that gap.   

   
• Scale - I have opted to have 5px per floor which is a little smaller than the original pak64 and looks silly until we have new city-people and vehicles drawn
• In general i'm very pleased although as I paint more, I imagine i'll re-visit these buildings in time to make them more refined. The lack of tables on the trains mean less painting. There will be a revised first post to reflect recent developments and lessons and other admin-y bits before I spend the upcoming rest days getting the three in-progress buildings painted and move on to commercial buildings.Feedback on the below is always appreciated.
  
  
  

[KneeOn]

Phase 1 residential buildings are now completed - notice the new clad, glass and angled flats.
I'm now going to focus on the first batch of shops and offices using much of the same styles as so far - especially with terraced shops which make up some of the older high streets and the wooden bungalow texturing for more modern shopping parades made with wood and glass as a style.
I'm not sure about the angled flat - the views from the back and side look too big but I cannot make the sizes all match up - if these can't be fixed then they might be removed.
Feedback is always appreciated!
Com buildings are now in full flow - two types of offices, a cinema and a fast food joint.

The green-roofed building is inspired by the Royal Exchange near Bank Junction in London, the cinema is inspired by the old style cinemas that made up old high streets in cities around the country. The fast food joint is like many motorway services (without a drive thru!)
There is a newer build small shop, similar to Tesco Express or Sainsburys Local, small forecort, lit ATM and a lit up sign.
COM7 has two forms. It is the grey shop with a large lit-up screen. Initially built to sit on the corner, when I placed it I wasn't happy with how it looked so have changed it to be part of a high street instead, but this would suit being in the middle of a larger town rather than your classic small town/local district high street. I'll likely get rid of the corner one.

[KneeOn]

Good afternoon,
Hit a small block where I couldn't get a couple of buildings quite right so I moved on to carry on painting.
So far are a set of terraced down town offices of varying sizes on one block and two variations of shops below offices. One has an arcade with night-lit sign and wide glass doors. The other is conventional shops, two of them below the offices. The material remains the same, this might change but making material changes on GIMP is relatively easy so today i've tried to just paint new building and not re-do all the planned variations.
The terraced offices proved to be the hardest building so far with getting the directional variations correct however I think it was worth the effort and i'm pleased with how the pak has progressed the last few days.
I think i'll move on to more high-street outlets, with various building styles and decorations. This will be a lot of repetition - probably glass, wood, brick, stone, concrete variants of between two and five buildings - possibly trying to vary the height so they can link together but not look quite so one dimensional - this is a note mostly for me to remember the idea.
Enjoy the latest screenshot.

[fam621]

Will be following this with interest. Great work so far!

I will to (like Carl ) be following this project and this may be the project which brings me back to Simutrans after what has rather been more of a break than me quitting Simutrans altogether  I have (before now) considered returning but this may be the pakset which helps me to make that return and maybe to make a map myself. @jamespetts @carl

P.S. Just a brief enquiry, in terms of signalling how is it going to work. Will it work like on the pak128 version of this pakset (pak128.britain) where you have the multiple aspect (track circuit block) signalling, cab signalling (TVM, ETCS) and the pre-track circuit block signalling (i.e. absolute block (semaphore signalling)) or will it be more simpler and where there is little or no variation in the signalling. Apart from that, keep up with the hard work.

[KneeOn]

I will to (like Carl ) be following this project and this may be the project which brings me back to Simutrans after what has rather been more of a break than me quitting Simutrans altogether  I have (before now) considered returning but this may be the pakset which helps me to make that return and maybe to make a map myself. @jamespetts @carl
P.S. Just a brief enquiry, in terms of signalling how is it going to work. Will it work like on the pak128 version of this pakset (pak128.britain) where you have the multiple aspect (track circuit block) signalling, cab signalling (TVM, ETCS) and the pre-track circuit block signalling (i.e. absolute block (semaphore signalling)) or will it be more simpler and where there is little or no variation in the signalling. Apart from that, keep up with the hard work.

Firstly, thank you for the kind words. If you do fancy getting involved feel free to PM me, otherwise keep an eye on this thread while I post my updates - a full release is still some way away but i'm glad its getting you thinking about Simutrans!
Secondly, I've not yet thought about signalling apart from testing how I could make a modern aspect signal look before I started painting buildings properly. Part of me doesn't want to over complicate the menu more than I've already got in mind. I will be looking at the menu.conf files to see what options are open to me. I may look to release the full pak with a simple signalling solution (i.e. TCB signalling, similar to what is currently shipped with standard)  and then having an addon with TVM/ETCS/token block/etc signals for those who want more advanced signalling, possibly in its own menu. I'm very open to ideas, so far i'm cracking through buildings only.
Thirdly, as a result of yesterday and todays work I have had a thought. I will, when I move on to factories, use the new shops below as templates for colour coded industrial buildings - I know one day there is a plan to possibly use a special tile colour to allow one building be used across multiple industries. This will be literally that end result - one building (or multiple building styles) with special colouring for each industry. The only difference is that I will paint a building and then have multiple colour options of that building for each industry.
Lastly (for now) I have completed 12(!) buildings, 6 of each brick and stone. There are 3 types of shop front and 2 building heights - 2 and 3 story variants. These are very subtle changes but hopefully give a little bit of variation in the high streets.
The updated building preview is here:

[fam621]

I would happily like to be involved with this pakset and its development as it is a project which has been disgusted since Carl started his GB map but wasn't looked into so for this to be made after so long is amazing. I will be DMing you at some point to discuss this further.

[KneeOn]

I would happily like to be involved with this pakset and its development as it is a project which has been disgusted since Carl started his GB map but wasn't looked into so for this to be made after so long is amazing. I will be DMing you at some point to discuss this further.

I've sent you a DM - as I said thank you for your kind words. It's a very big undertaking - I thought it would be but it's still surprising how much work it is! To give you an idea, i've spent 3 hours fixing a building - the corner offices were mis-sized by a pixel. This meant if they were built next to each other as per the preview they looked mismatched. Luckily with a bunch of brute force editing they fit nicely together! This comes in three varieties
I've also paked up the white walled version of the taller black topped office building. This is next to the modern, glass walled and metal framed building with an angled middle floor.
Getting these little bits right early doors is certainly better than having to go back. Currently any building where the black guide lines were removed after the building was finished causes a glitch on the latest standard version where pixels get stuck so all these buildings will have to be fixed in due course!
Below are the recent additions from this afternoon:

As an added extra, I built a very quick mock up of a town to show how this pakset looks in the 'wild' although it is planned.

[Vladki]

Beware! There's a flock of welsh sheep invading the city

[KneeOn]

Beware! There's a flock of welsh sheep invading the city

I'm going to be brutally honest - I thought those were clouds for as long as I can remember them!!!! I'll build a high voltage train line, that'll cook 'em!

[KneeOn]

Hello, it's been a stint of four night shifts so I've been working on things on the train to work and haven't had internet access.
That means today is a bumper pack of six new buildings.
They are as follows:
A residential set of flags in Georgian sort of style - this was intended to be an office but I felt it was more suited to be a residential buildingA stone bowed roof row of shops, similar to the six stone ones but with a different roofA community centre inspired by a building in Coventry or Keyleigh town centre (I forget which)Two buildings, one stone and one brick council style building inspired by a building in Keyleigh town centreA small glass corporation building, no specific inspiration however this was what the Georgian style
The work will continue this week, hopefully with more modern buildings. The rows of shops are largely finished for now - there are some plans afoot to have run down/vandalised versions of shops to simulate the worn out, pre-regeneration/gentrification parts of a town.
Enjoy the full building list and the mock city with new buildings included.

[KneeOn]

Hey all you cool cats and kittens, it's KneeOn from Pak64.GB.

Today I have been making efforts on fixing some of the early residential work, having noticed it causes a graphical glitch. This is because I used tile guidelines which I then converted to being transparent, and that causes a weird, trippy effect when moving the map and causes pixels from pedestrians to get 'stuck', making a trail that stays behind them as they walk past the building.

I also took the chance to make the roof better and fix the colour scheme. Below is a comparison.

I think this looks a lot better, it has a more muted, mature tone and the roofs are much better looking. I also much prefer the gardens, I think they look more dense on the terraced houses and this should make the inner-suburbs/outer city parts (think East End London, Birmingham, Peterborough, Newcastle) feel more alive, dense and compacted and therefore drive up the requirements for a heavier public transport solution such as metro bus, suburban rail and tube/underground services.

I'm still not convinced on the lawn, I'm looking in to licences for the Pak64 tileset and whether it is worth making my own. The concern is that it looks poor quality because it repeats and therefore has to fit together without looking like a jigsaw. Later problems for later KneeOn.

The re-works continue with all initial flats to be done. I also need to make the loft conversion variants with this new style, a relatively small job and one which will apply to all brown/red/yellow brick terraced, semis and detached rather than just the original terraced.

Please let me know thoughts - gamer, i'm about to email you the pak/source files for your feedback.

Stay safe, stay home, protect the NHS, save lives!

[wlindley]

Perhaps your tiles with transparent sections require ground?  See also https://www.simutrans-germany.com/wiki/wiki/en_BuildingsDef#The_parameter_needs_ground

[fam621]

Hey all you cool cats and kittens, it's KneeOn from Pak64.GB.

Today I have been making efforts on fixing some of the early residential work, having noticed it causes a graphical glitch. This is because I used tile guidelines which I then converted to being transparent, and that causes a weird, trippy effect when moving the map and causes pixels from pedestrians to get 'stuck', making a trail that stays behind them as they walk past the building.

I also took the chance to make the roof better and fix the colour scheme. Below is a comparison.

I think this looks a lot better, it has a more muted, mature tone and the roofs are much better looking. I also much prefer the gardens, I think they look more dense on the terraced houses and this should make the inner-suburbs/outer city parts (think East End London, Birmingham, Peterborough, Newcastle) feel more alive, dense and compacted and therefore drive up the requirements for a heavier public transport solution such as metro bus, suburban rail and tube/underground services.

I'm still not convinced on the lawn, I'm looking in to licences for the Pak64 tileset and whether it is worth making my own. The concern is that it looks poor quality because it repeats and therefore has to fit together without looking like a jigsaw. Later problems for later KneeOn.

The re-works continue with all initial flats to be done. I also need to make the loft conversion variants with this new style, a relatively small job and one which will apply to all brown/red/yellow brick terraced, semis and detached rather than just the original terraced.

Please let me know thoughts - gamer, i'm about to email you the pak/source files for your feedback.

Stay safe, stay home, protect the NHS, save lives!

Buildings looking nice I must say, when will work start in terms of signalling and stuff?

[KneeOn]

Hello all,

I had a minor account issue which is now fixed. Also speaking of issues - the ground tile appears to have worked but i'll get the residential paks re-done with this and do a full test at the end of the city building painting. Thank you for your suggestion with that wlindley!

To answer the unanswered questions on here - signals/stations/depots will start soon. I am going to go and paint all 136+ parts of the initial rail release (that excludes underground stuff or any signalling aside from TCB - that'll bump it up another 10-20!).

Menu config is a big, confusing file which I need to read around so I can achieve my goal of splitting track/depots and their decorative parts/signals/boxes from stations/station buildings on the menu - I'm not entirely sure that is possible which means the menu will be huge if you play without a timeline.  Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Before stations comes industrial city buildings and then bugfixing all the city buildings and making extended and standard paks which can be dropped in to any game however. The first 17 buildings are painted - these broadly fit across 2 base templates: the factory and the warehouse. The box warehouse has made three buildings in two variants for a total of 6 while the factory has 3 types of roof in two styles, plus the sloped roof comes in metal and has also been edited to make a single story storage facility in stone, red, blue and green - there are a few more planned which I'm working on today and hopefully will have finished up by the end of my night shifts that start tomorrow.

Anyone who wants to help with painting or writing dat files please do DM me - the more hands on this the better it'll be!

EDIT: I couldn't work out why I jumped from IND6 to IND8 in my exported PNG - I missed off the warehouse complex with a longer building in there. I also will take the chance to show the 10th building, a walled work yard with two big boxes of goods and a skip with space to park vehicles and the work office.

[KneeOn]

I've had a few days off from doing this.


I'm pretty city-building-ed out now, especially as I reach the limits of my ability to make more interesting buildings. I will be returning to city buildings with a skyline update but also to fill in and expand as time goes on with properties. I've also elected not to bother balancing them yet - I will be looking at how to balance things out so a well run company can make a realistic 3-5% profit but that'll all be based on reading how the numbers fit together.

So what have I done instead? Well I've played football manager and i've started painting the first train station platform, paking it using dims=1,1,16 and getting templates in place. You will be able to see some of this below, but it is subject to change at this early stage.

Full disclosure: I have been in love with the japanese wa-platform set for years and years and years. I have studied these extensively for dimensions and how it looks as good as it does. I have not edited their graphics, but they've formed the base in how many pixels high, how to slope, platform depth etc. As far as I can tell, that is still very much in the spirit of simutrans. Inspiration, indeed many people including my self have edited graphics with permission. I haven't sought that permission this time around, because I do not want to simply edit their graphics. It doesn't match the style of painting I'm doing, nor do they suit the paksets GB theme. There will be a read-me and (hopefully) a splash on this pak which will have a full an extensive list of credits for painters, dat file creators and helpers and inspiration where it has struck.


So below is an example of the platform - the pixels do not match up at all and will be re-done shortly. The reason why I am putting this in is because I need your help! Which winter style works best? There are two types:
Plain colour
Ice/marble GIMP effect


There are three styles
Fully covered
To the yellow line
Cleared along the platform edge


Does anyone have any suggestions or feedback?

[Carl]

Just to say that it's great to see a new set of platforms being put together for pak64. I've used the wa-platform set for as long as I can remember because it was head and shoulders above anything else and wasn't too incongruous with the overall theme. But it would be great to have an alternative!

I suspect the normal versions of the above are a bit too white - the colour isn't that different from the snowy versions. It can sometimes be worth calibrating with Google Satellite colours - these are rarely exactly what you want but can help to see approximate hues and how things stand out from the surroundings.

(edit: on rereading I think maybe these are all winter styles? In that case I think I'd have to see them "in situ" i.e. on a map to know which looked best)

[KneeOn]

Hello, yes those are all winter styles. I've rather left winter styles for the time being as just painting anything on the 'top' white and I haven't put their images in the dat files because i'm trying to get the images sorted before making those modifications and testing them.


I can't give you winter tiles just yet but I can give you another dilemma.


A simple two track station with brick side buildings on the modern platform base. Two images, one of the stations in situ and a demo of the 16 image orientation for you to see. I can't tell if the red or brown brick looks better. I know I could do both but that could clutter the menu so for now, which looks better? If it turns out I can include both then I will but I'm doubtful.


I'd be grateful for any feedback on the platforms themselves - are they too bland/single colour blockiness/do they look British? I don't want to simplify the colours until they become boring or unrefined, just less noise!


I absolutely agree, what has always struck me as odd however is that the platforms are DIMS=16 but the japanese pak creators always do a single orientation for their wonderful attractions that are square - the shopping street/centres for example! The attention to detail on wa-platform is magnificent but, in my humble opinion, the noise is perhaps excessive for the cleaner look i'm trying to achieve.


NOTE: I know the guidelines are still there, this is deliberate while the platforms are WIP.

--

[fam621]

I've had a few days off from doing this.


I'm pretty city-building-ed out now, especially as I reach the limits of my ability to make more interesting buildings. I will be returning to city buildings with a skyline update but also to fill in and expand as time goes on with properties. I've also elected not to bother balancing them yet - I will be looking at how to balance things out so a well run company can make a realistic 3-5% profit but that'll all be based on reading how the numbers fit together.

So what have I done instead? Well I've played football manager and i've started painting the first train station platform, paking it using dims=1,1,16 and getting templates in place. You will be able to see some of this below, but it is subject to change at this early stage.

Full disclosure: I have been in love with the japanese wa-platform set for years and years and years. I have studied these extensively for dimensions and how it looks as good as it does. I have not edited their graphics, but they've formed the base in how many pixels high, how to slope, platform depth etc. As far as I can tell, that is still very much in the spirit of simutrans. Inspiration, indeed many people including my self have edited graphics with permission. I haven't sought that permission this time around, because I do not want to simply edit their graphics. It doesn't match the style of painting I'm doing, nor do they suit the paksets GB theme. There will be a read-me and (hopefully) a splash on this pak which will have a full an extensive list of credits for painters, dat file creators and helpers and inspiration where it has struck.


So below is an example of the platform - the pixels do not match up at all and will be re-done shortly. The reason why I am putting this in is because I need your help! Which winter style works best? There are two types:
Plain colour
Ice/marble GIMP effect


There are three styles
Fully covered
To the yellow line
Cleared along the platform edge


Does anyone have any suggestions or feedback?

Hello, yes those are all winter styles. I've rather left winter styles for the time being as just painting anything on the 'top' white and I haven't put their images in the dat files because i'm trying to get the images sorted before making those modifications and testing them.


I can't give you winter tiles just yet but I can give you another dilemma.


A simple two track station with brick side buildings on the modern platform base. Two images, one of the stations in situ and a demo of the 16 image orientation for you to see. I can't tell if the red or brown brick looks better. I know I could do both but that could clutter the menu so for now, which looks better? If it turns out I can include both then I will but I'm doubtful.


I'd be grateful for any feedback on the platforms themselves - are they too bland/single colour blockiness/do they look British? I don't want to simplify the colours until they become boring or unrefined, just less noise!


I absolutely agree, what has always struck me as odd however is that the platforms are DIMS=16 but the japanese pak creators always do a single orientation for their wonderful attractions that are square - the shopping street/centres for example! The attention to detail on wa-platform is magnificent but, in my humble opinion, the noise is perhaps excessive for the cleaner look i'm trying to achieve.


NOTE: I know the guidelines are still there, this is deliberate while the platforms are WIP.

--

Nice work buddy, I would also recommend creating some older style platforms (platform styles used before 2010 (i.e. concrete, brick) however apart from that, there looking good (so far).

[KneeOn]

Yeah, there is a stone platform template already made up - for now its getting the buildings right and the colour schemes sorted before the relatively easy conversion from Modern to Classic schemes.

With that in mind, the island platforms of the previous are done in brown brick and put in a pak for testing.

Let me know what you think - i've mocked up a 6 platform station, passenger foot tunnels are implied for now but that may well be another station type.

Feedback appreciated for this first complete platform set.




EDIT

Another station: the classic BR canopy which can be seen up and down the country on many, many lines.

I was trying to do a modern glass topped shelter that ran along the platform but I got the positioning and alignment of the shelter horrendously wrong. I decided to go for another 'classic come modern' design instead, one which would have been very new when it opened and yet still adorns routes up and down the country. It's a canopied roof with player colour trim and station buildings along the platform. I'm very, very proud of this one and would go as far to say it's my best one.





I still can't decide between brown and red brick for stations with a brick building so i'll paint it in both and see which I like more. Input on this specifically is sought.

[fam621]

Yeah, there is a stone platform template already made up - for now its getting the buildings right and the colour schemes sorted before the relatively easy conversion from Modern to Classic schemes.

With that in mind, the island platforms of the previous are done in brown brick and put in a pak for testing.

Let me know what you think - i've mocked up a 6 platform station, passenger foot tunnels are implied for now but that may well be another station type.

Feedback appreciated for this first complete platform set.




EDIT

Another station: the classic BR canopy which can be seen up and down the country on many, many lines.

I was trying to do a modern glass topped shelter that ran along the platform but I got the positioning and alignment of the shelter horrendously wrong. I decided to go for another 'classic come modern' design instead, one which would have been very new when it opened and yet still adorns routes up and down the country. It's a canopied roof with player colour trim and station buildings along the platform. I'm very, very proud of this one and would go as far to say it's my best one.





I still can't decide between brown and red brick for stations with a brick building so i'll paint it in both and see which I like more. Input on this specifically is sought.

Nice, also have you checked your emails recently because I have sent you some information regarding trains

[Mariculous]

thegamer7893, why do you always full quote posts?
It's very hard to read a topic like this.

Anyways, I just came here to thank KneeOn for this pakset.
I likely won't try it in the near future as i don't like 64er paks pretty much but it looks quite good and I am impressed how fast you progress.

[KneeOn]

Gamer: yes I have thank you for that - luckily i'm ex-railway anyway so lots of the train things are easier for me to do - its mostly painting and datfile creation I need help with!

Freahk: Thank you for your compliments, it's been a massive learning curve. It's weird how people favour different sizes! I've been very complimentary about 128.Britain because, technically speaking, it's probably the best pakset. I just don't like the 'feel' of anything bigger than 64! I did dabble with 96.comic, even painting a train for them but I couldn't get on with it the way I've always loved using pak64. I tried after the most recent few year break from playing Simutrans properly and consistently with 128.Britain first but it still didn't 'feel' like the right size.

Talking of learning curves, I've been working on combining front and back images to make span roofing. I've also created the station demo ground and finally sorted the metal canopy. I now need to go back on that BR old style canopy station, split it in to front/back image and then we have a station we can kit-bash together. with the span roof.

This is, again, inspired by the pak128.Britain and the modular stations with a critical difference being you can combine any of the styles so far on to one platform. Getting this to work together well was in no small part down to being able to see the sources for stations in 128.Britain but also pak64. I have a much better understanding of how to use these images now - thank you!

See below the test ground and a demo of the span roof station.


I'll be updating these during the day hopefully with another station of a yet undecided style.

[fam621]

thegamer7893, why do you always full quote posts?
It's very hard to read a topic like this.

Freahk: Idk to be quite honest but yeah, I'll try and stop. xD

KneeOn: Those platforms so look really nice and very classic and the colour variations are also a nice touch.

[KneeOn]

Thank you, I do really like that wood effect on the roof of the canopy and canopy span stations (working names for now). That scheme will make a feature again in some of the signal boxes.

I had hoped to get the stone span started and finished today, probably a single point between two platforms rather than 4 between 2 platforms as per the wood one (reminder for me) however while creating the canopied roofs I realised the extent in which I needed to modify how the graphics were put together with front/back images. Naturally, as these appear to form three distinct styles of roofing - metal frame, slate(?) roof, wood and slate(?) roof it would be logical that they all get some sort of extension. I also realised what a mess my GIMP and png files were in the rail folder, and i've used

Code Select Expand

makeobj.exe pak rather than specifying the files, so the stations now have a different name format for the pak files which will need addressing. I'll likely keep them, but the file names will have to change to reflect what each building actually is. Future problems for neatening and pre-release rather than now.

Tonight I will likely be mostly editing those graphics and dat files which need editing - the two brick and the metal framed shelter that'll let me work on getting the fully roofed buildings sorted over the next few days as I go back in to work. 

I also want to consider what other styles are possible. So far the bare platforms are going to be compatible with all their counterparts i.e. if a station is a 'modern' canopy span then the modern bare platform will work. Indeed, any will work so you can have naturally growing stations which still fit together in a somewhat coherent way until the station floor becomes obsolete. I picture the stone platform and brick station buildings coming first, then the canopy, then the metal and then the modern platform brick, canopy and metal ones replacing the oldest station tile. This will let there be some overlap in style but i'm not sure. Again, future dat file problems which will be addressed likely after first beta.

I've removed from the demo the bare station tiles. I want to still decorate them and think consolidating the bench and plain station and possibly the open shelter station might be more economical on space in the menu bar without reducing the amount of variety too much. There isn't much difference in passenger numbers between a station with nothing, a bench or bench in a shelter and they don't add so much value in graphical terms that makes their inclusion worth making the menu too busy. What is worth while is a variety of styles, which even if it adds a few extra icons (we've saved 4-6 so far already), those icons would add so much more graphical value to the game that it is a worth while sacrifice.

Some people like to forget balancing and create maps based on fantasy companies, with station and route grouping/livery/station design and variation in buildings, if not numbers, massively helps. In timeline games the variety just based on the styles and the eras (classic/modern) might let there be some clear indication of when a station or route (for their depots and signal boxes) was built adding a rich level of graphical history to those games.

I'm not entirely sure on this trade off between between depth vs variety - I know i'm on the right line with the graphics so far based on the feedback. What do people think about depth of variations against number of styles?

Anyway, enjoy the refreshed and coherent demo stations below!


EDIT: I've mocked up a station which could be a regional terminus with fast intercity services using BR class 375, 395 and 180 - all matching the stations colours! This shows off how the buildings link together. This is nothing new if you've used wa-platform or played pak128.Britain. I will now work on the front/back image conversion is done on existing buildings. What I will then show is how the station tile types can be used interchangeably and together that mimic real life development. For example an airport pays to have a new pair of platforms for their express services to the capital. These sit along side the station shed but as part of the deal the airport pay for platform extensions across all intercity platforms. You'd see a shared plain platform (the extensions) become two clear, yet linkable station types - the old station canopy shed and the newer, metal and glass airport platforms. This lets timeline games see natural progression and free-players without timeline create a map which feels like however they want.


Also see the 'pixel perfect' ambition - the matching alternating wood pattern between the canopy and the span doesn't have any 'double colouring' where the darker or lighter tones of the wood go next to each other on joints - they alternate even between two tile types. This level of detail means buildings will now be slower but I think this is worthwhile. In city-buildings, a pixel can be skipped or something not quite proportioned accurately according to the pixel count if it 'feels' acceptable - this margin is very small. For stations it will be non-existent because Simutrans is about transport and transport tiles should be the feature and therefore pixel perfect.


Of course appropriately sized, coloured and designed station buildings will replace the original pak64 tiles. This will come after the stations and be the final piece in having a very well defined station environment where your entrances to the grand, new intercity platforms look and feel connected to the older, suburban platforms and their slightly less attractive entrances.


Please, let me know what you think!

[fam621]

Will station buildings be next? 🤷🏾‍♂️

I'll also email you about some signalling stuff and some things you need to be aware off in that field

[KneeOn]

Hi Gamer,


next will be making span-roofs of the brick platform buildings and the metal shelter buildings - after that will be looking at expanding the station tile options then the station buildings - see the above post I edited while you typed out your reply! Theres a teaser of how the station can look there.


With signalling, luckily I have used simsig and being ex-rail staff I have a basic grasp of TCB aspect signalling - ERTMS was never used on my routes in normal working so i'm not well versed in that though, although I do understand the basic concept. I'm not looking to balance signalling beyond painting and getting a working update for Carls trains out just yet though.


If you've got anything to help creation of dat files relating to signalling that would be much, much appreciated!

[fam621]

ETCS comes in 3 different levels and how it works (in the pak128-britain pakset) is that Level 2 which uses stop boards and works like 2 aspect signals and level 3 allows trains to operate close together using beacons which allows trains to run closely without the need to stop at signals. So in a way, it feels like ATO operation as the trains are independently operating (whilst colliding with eachover). Also, that station picture does look nice and does look like a very fictional representation of Reading. %uD83D%uDC4D

However just as a quick side note, level 3 operation is more suited to double track railways and its also best to use the level 2 choose boards at junctions and if made, there should be a minimum of 1 tile (125m) in spacing so that it doesn't look like trains are just crashing into eachover

[KneeOn]

Cheers Gamer, a few points you raise very much depend on what the user does to prevent the grahpics look like they're crashing in to each other. That will hopefully form part of Extended's documentation if I can't copy it in to the text config files.  Once I get started on signalling I'll start looking over that document you emailed me. TCB will be first and might even be the only way of signalling in v0.1 - ERTMS getting painted and implemented is not as much of a priority compared to getting the trains re-written and everything working for at least some sort of full game.

I'm back at work right now - two night shifts to get through. Next week I'll be working all six shifts on my shift pattern so no WFH days and therefore slower progress. There is at least one more station to draw out to complete the progression from shelter/buildings to span roofs - the metal shelter. I have a plan in mind but if I can't get that plan to work with the existing shelter then I will think of something else for those stations and then look to draw a fourth station - shelter, canopy and island counterparts in a very contemporary 2020 style, ability depending.

In the mean time you can have a peek at the latest update with continuing work on the station evolution for the first brick platforms I drew. Below that is an explanation as to what I've been up to, learned and implemented and what is next. I've also written about the project and a decision i've taken in relation to the Extended highlevel plans. Please skip if you're not interested in my ramblings. At the very, very end is a small bit of good news for those following this or playing pak.64 tile sets. Some of the boring bit may be of interest to those who want to read about the release coming up. It is highlighted.






Boring bit you can skip if you want:

I've drawn and demonstrated the two brick styles new span roof stations. No test has been done yet to check if they work front image/back image wise but the span canopy which was the first to be front/back image sorted has been used as a base so the images should be in the right place and referenced in the dat file. I've achieved this by using a sensible naming convention for my internal testing meaning changes are very quick to implement. I only need to find/replace on wordpad a single phrase or word to create the right datfile for each platform type. Evidence of how fool proof this is in the metal shelter. I think I've converted all buildings apart from the brick island platforms to front/back image files in GIMP but and the metal shelter has been re-exported but the dat file has not been updated to reflect that it is now 8x8 rather than 4x4 tiles. Red X tiles are not referenced in the dat file - using the wand I split the original station in to the span or shelter, and the platform i.e front and back image. On span roofing that has an obvious cosmetic influence - it prevents the platform showing above the train or the train showing above the roof. On the smaller station/shelter buildings it is only apparent if you pair the small island with the span roof - it means the station doesn't have a graphical jump. Only two of the four views require this (thanks Pak128.Britain sources for guiding me there!). Therefore I alternate on the 4 view required lines so the station buildings all work. Long story short, it means I am wanding, copying, pasting, exporting and then converting an already front/back image dat file. This runs nicely through makeobj.exe to create the cross compatible station tiles which wa-platform and pak128.Britain have - i'm playing catch up because I didn't realise this would be required for every building. Stand by for the last buildings to be painted. Essentially platforms are back images, buildings are front images and only 2/4 directions require this split. By alternating blanked off tiles on the back image only tiles, you keep everything nicely lined up so you can have consistency. It seems complicated however if you want to get involved (more on that down below) I will be able to explain it more clearly as much as you need to make sure you can create something for the pakset you can be proud of!


Boring bit which may be relevant if you're interested in what buildings I will be drawing and releasing in relation to the 'good news'

I've also had a thought having read the extended high level ambitions for the first time. I had planned some 'cosmetic only' buildings which is the opposite of one of the principles. I do still intend to do so, it is not realistic either graphically or economically for a depot which holds hundreds of carriages to cover 1 tile and be able to be a 2 tile track spur. The wa-platform creators have depot tiles which act as stations but have no capacity. You can use these to draw huge realistic depots and have the associated track cost. The only possible function they can serve is as turn back sidings to keep platforms clear but only up to a point - you'd have empty platforms for all but the busiest stations which require 20+ platforms but have half that amount at the most. Therefore the depot plan will be kept, especially if the way depots are used change over time - I imagine at some point in the future that depots will change and so I'm half future proofing.  I have two or three ideas for extended features, one relates to this but I do not know how to code so I will suggest these to throw ideas in to the ring if jamespetts and the team want to explore them on the appropriate thread.


However I did intend to include more station buildings than perhaps would be required to serve any function - all for graphic variation in stations. For example, an entrance, single story and two story set of entrances and offices (in each style) would be complemented with variants of those offices and street-retail entrances. The offices and street-retail entrances would serve no other purpose than a different graphic to expand by an amount already covered by the 'standard' range of entrances i.e. the variants would be very, very redundant. I've not considered mail transport at all during the station creation process, and feel having varying capacity of office space given over to mail staff would give these a genuine function and close a gap I have.


Therefore there will be three passenger only extensions for each style, not including large vanity/terminus, multi-tile buildings which will serve a clear function (major interchange buildings). I will then draw two or three extensions which add both passenger and mail capacity - retail units capable of processing small amounts of post, offices which can handle more post and then postal hubs built above/next to the station extensions. These will all be graphically different from the passenger ones, so I keep my variation plans in the station environment but I don't contravene that suggested principle beyond what I consider sensible i.e. the depots being able to reflect some real-life cost and look.


Good news update (mostly the last sentence, there are some more rambling thoughts before that though):

Lastly, I've been thinking about release time frames, work required, how I want to progress this. It has dominated almost my entire time away from work and on my commute - drawing buildings and making dat files simply to test the graphics. I am enjoying it, but there will come a point where progression loses its pace because I want to do the other things I enjoy doing a bit more especially gaming.


I'm really keen to drop this all in one go when ready for a V0.1 which is some way off so people don't start a bigger game with half the pakset and have to use too much from other pak-files such as city buildings or attractions then find the actual release is then incompatible. Pak256 (a very, very attractive and well drawn pak from the screenshots!) did the same - a v0.1 drop was playable, if sparse and added to, not breaking any games.


I implore anyone who can/wants to learn how to paint or do dat files to get in touch - the pak now has a flavour I think, and I've only been able to produce the buildings I have in the quality I have since starting - you can see clear progression where buildings have gotten more refined I think. I'm much prouder of more recent work (re-worked terrace buildings and the new stations). Basically, don't be daunted by the process. If you're brand new ask what's needed and i'll guide you through email, DMs or forum posts with suggestions to help you make something you can be proud of. The more hands who can paint signals, depots, city attractions, bus stops, roads, city-buildings, air, sea, tram and other infrastructure, industries etc, etc, the quicker this can be released. There's no obligation to take on more, and there's no specific deadline - you'll paint as you want at the pace you want with a clear design plan which is adaptable and I'd love input on. If you're experienced and simply want to get straight on with it using what you can see please do as well - it's open to anyone and everyone who thinks they want to contribute a building or an entire set of something.


However: Carl pointed out that new pak.64 buildings, especially stations, have been lacking in recent years. This is in part because wa-platform held a well earned monopoly for those who don't use homogeneous paksets like pa64.german which I imagine come with their own station sets. Therefore once I have drawn at least the current station evolution and their accompanying station buildings (to a point) I will release the stations! 

I do tend to post these updates either after a day of painting or (like now) on the train to a night shift when i've had no sleep and can't structure my thoughts so well, so thank you for sticking with the long winded diary of the creation of a new pakset!

[fam621]

Cheers Gamer, a few points you raise very much depend on what the user does to prevent the grahpics look like they're crashing in to each other. That will hopefully form part of Extended's documentation if I can't copy it in to the text config files.  Once I get started on signalling I'll start looking over that document you emailed me. TCB will be first and might even be the only way of signalling in v0.1 - ERTMS getting painted and implemented is not as much of a priority compared to getting the trains re-written and everything working for at least some sort of full game.

In the mean time you can have a peek at the latest update with continuing work on the station evolution for the first brick platforms I drew. Below that is an explanation as to what I've been up to, learned and implemented and what is next. I've also written about the project and a decision i've taken in relation to the Extended highlevel plans. Please skip if you're not interested in my ramblings. At the very, very end is a small bit of good news for those following this or playing pak.64 tile sets. Some of the boring bit may be of interest to those who want to read about the release coming up. It is highlighted.

If you need anymore assistance regarding signalling, let me know and also will any modern style station be made as they all seam modern enough but old in a certain way

[KneeOn]

Hi Gamer, I'll email you regarding signalling if needed when the time comes. Thank you!


Regarding the stations look - the fact you've said that means I've pretty much smashed what I was going for - stations which suit the modern platforms but as slightly older ones. They fit the present but are not built during the present.


To answer your question yes, the metal shelter will get a metal modern span which I hope will be a post 2000/2010 look. If I cannot work my current idea in then a fourth, ultra modern and new style will be developed. This might not make the station release which I hope to do by the end of May at the latest.


I'll sort the metal span roof, then associated passenger buildings and release the unbalanced station tiles before going on to do the ultra modern station (if required or desired), the emptier platform and start work on classical stations - art deco is one theme I'm considering. If I'm super efficient then perhaps I'll have everything listed done by May and release it all then rather than just what I have planned.

[KneeOn]

Update:

I'm having a shocker in getting some sort of span metal roof to work. I know what I want to achieve, a modern larger station look however most large station platforms tend to be older roofs that are updated rather than brand new builds. We haven't had a brand new, from scratch new large terminus in this country for a while - even KGX and STP retained their frontage and older feel with modern innards and minor roof improvements.

This makes finding something suitable for the platforms specifically a challenge. I've spent all day painting and trying to find a way to make this work and i've not come up with anything i'm happy to include. I've even considered tracing the curved roof on the pak64gcg building because the curve is of the right size and I cannot, despite my efforts, replicate anything which suits the metal shelter.

I'm including a screenshot of the only finished attempt i've done today and present two ideas

1. I can persist and try to make this work
2. I can consider the metal shelter to be my modern minor station design, to go on plainer platforms where a shelter is wanted perhaps alongside the plain platform. This would act as the shelter, bench and small open shelter all in one as I have discussed. I will then start again tomorrow with a different design - i've got Crossrail in mind as my fourth station type, inspired by Canary Wharf and also take a look at the DLR. I am also going to look at LUL stations for an art-deco style station type

I'm minded to go for option 2, I'm not happy with how any of the work has looked and I don't think i'm going to be able to get something I'm happy with that will match the style of the metal shelter. There are other modern platform types I can do, including modern glass roofed re-vamped older style buildings (Liverpool Street, Lime Street, Kings Cross, Preston etc) - maybe something pointed roof but the points instead of running parallel to the tracks, run adjacent to them with modern windows represented by transparent sections like the canopy span roof.

I'm also going to look at a gentler, single arch pointed roof style that spans two tracks for another brick/older style inner suburban station.

I'm going to sleep on it, review the work tomorrow but please let me know what you think of this work, it is rough but it does match up in terms of pixel placement - I don't think it looks good. 

If I do go for option two the following stations will be considered for painting:

1. Crossrail/Canary Wharf style
2. Poplar DLR style
3. Art-deco LUL
4. Single span older roof style
5. Bare platform repaint (this will happen)
6. A Kings Cross/Liverpool Street/Preston style revamped building.
EDIT: The current modern platform shelter having a classic counterpart, perhaps without full length sheltering but smaller bus shelter style or even just adding spaces so even the middle platform has gaps in the wall so it looks more 'classic' so that's another station to paint but shouldn't take too long.

These will all come with island and side platform variants and will work full length so include the platform slope and appropriate end buildings/walls for each one so that'll be a total (if all get done) 12 modern platforms left to paint. I envisage as many as 4 or 5 of those to be converted to classic platform, along with most if not all of the existing ones. That's a lot of stations so hopefully May will see pak64 get its first wide range of new stations for some time!


Let me know what you think of the work and the above ideas/plans!

[KneeOn]

Shameful update:

I've not posted any real progress apart from yesterday - which I am not happy with. I revisted several options today to progress the list that i've posted.

I've modified the canopy stations roof and wall colouring to create the rounded roof, art deco style London Underground platforms. I've then tried to address Canary Wharf Crossrail station. This is especially tricky being so rounded. I've put a peg in it for now, because I'm not sure how it looks with other stations and the overall map. I will be continuing to look in to this.

The shameful bit: I looked at doing the Kings Cross/Preston/Lime Street station, and it is really very difficult to get the roof. I have opted today to trace out the curve of the CGC railway station and then modify it, and I am happier with how this looks than anything I could do on my own. I'm not happy that I've essentially used their work quite as much as I have. Reading in to licences, I think that by including the source in my own pakset of the original, appropriate copyrighting the pakfile and making this post public, I am working within the open source licencing. I am very happy to be corrected and will go back to the drawing board. At this time I can't find the copyright for it but I will go to the sources and find it for appropriate crediting in the paks dat file (made by: modified by: or even just made by:), on the documentation (already being written for the credits to keep track of all sources) and on this thread.


I will say that it very, very much suits the look of the pak - the colouring in helps but the structure work they have done is very close to several major stations and would suit if it is appropriate to keep in the pakset.

A small note on this, there is a side and island version. The island may be flattened on the roof so it creates a modern single span station tomorrow, but this reduces flexibility so i'm not sure I will do so.

Attached is the latest update - you can see the two stations. For the sake of comparison I've included the original station I have modified, please chip in with feedback on this - especially if the understanding of open source is wrong.

[fam621]

Attached is the latest update - you can see the two stations. For the sake of comparison I've included the original station I have modified, please chip in with feedback on this - especially if the understanding of open source is wrong.

Nice work buddy. 👍🏾

[passengerpigeon]

I am so happy to see another attempt being made at a Pak64 Extended pakset, not least because I am currently drawing an addon for Pak64, PigeonPack, and I hope to port it over to Extended once that is possible even though it doesn't fit the British theme of this pakset. One question I have, though, is what the economic balancing is going to be like - will it be like traditional Pak64, with high running costs but high profit potential, or will it be more like Pak128.Britain?
Thank you,
Passengerpigeon.

[KneeOn]

I have seen your thread and have to say I am impressed with the dedication to expanding the original pak64! Clearly, we both feel 64x64 tilesets still have an place within Simutrans. I really like the mix of importing pak128 which has many more buildings and your own work - it's of very high quality and I might have a closer look because you've managed to get a few bits which I've struggled with looking really nice. It really does look like natural progression for pak64.


I've not forgotten my deadline - it's going to be a lot tighter than I hoped because my working from home (which involves sitting around doing nothing) has been cancelled next week which was the time I had set aside for doing a lot of work!


That said, i've taken stock of where I am with that deadline, had a few unproductive days and there is an update:


I have settled nicely on the current platform tiles. Apart from the bare ones, the stations shown off so far will be the ones that I will release. I've held off updating while I tinker and play because every promise, update, plan is subject to change! Some notes on release:


There is still a plan, later, for a single span roof but the style isn't yet decided.
Crossrail/canary wharf style was actually created however did not fit the set. If I get time I will release this as a stand alone.
Poplar/DLR stations already look largely like the metal shelter - they're not very detailed.
Art deco - DONE (possibly a candidate for the single span roof style)
KGX/Preston roof - covered by the modification of the CGC style station that ships with pak64 anyway
Bare platforms - will be done last of all before release. They're actually ready and done because it forms the basis for all other stations I just need to add a fence and signs.


There is still around 12 styles - bare, red and brown brick classic buildings, red and brown brick canopies, red and brown classic spans, red and brown canopy spans, metal shelter, metal span, art deco all of which will come in two eras for a total of 47 station tiles (the canopy span has a shared island).


I now turn to station buildings for release. Again, I am ambitious and have 56 interchangeable station buildings of 7 variants across 8 styles: stone, brick, metal, ornate pillar (of stone style - this one is subject to change but i'm keen to have a grander station look), a revamped stone and revamped brick style (mixture of stone/brick and metal/glass) and two LUL inspired builds.


As mentioned subject to change.


I need your help though. I've started to build the stone buildings, the entrance/ticket office and the station hall. I have come in to a dilemma however. Which looks better as an extension to the station entrance? I've extended the front and kept the height the same with a flat roof across the slanted tiles for one option (on the right). The other is flat single story extension appended on to the pointed roof (on the left). Pictures for compairson are attached.


I favour the left option.

EDIT: I've struck through the dilemma. I settled on the left, and will show this off in a new post later once I have finished todays work. Hopefully I'll have a lot of work to show off either the .pngs or if I get around to it today, some in the wild examples.

[KneeOn]

The edited post above alluded to a proper update.


Below display of one view from each of the station extension buildings drawn so far, and a demo of how the hall attaches to the canopy station island as per the style. All station buildings come in four rotation, two season format as per city buildings. They're a lot quicker to produce than the actual stations so far! I've roughly coloured the light blue according to how the general colour may look of track and road to give a sense of how the colours compare.


In order going across - entrance, hall, office, shop, parade (2 shops) and tower
Going down - stone, brick, metal, stone revamp - in progress. To come: brick revamp, LUL1, LUL2 - i've not decided if these will follow the same variants so far. I may well look at these having a few more limited options - entrance, hall, shop, parade for example.


Half length, half width (1/4 tile) corner buildings are yet to be drawn and probably won't be in the end of month release. As you can see they're modular so could slot together as you organically grow your stations with height and width both contributing to show off which stations are more important, busier or otherwise special. They should work together regardless of style - scale and heights are all the same and the shops/parades extend out the same 6x10 pixels so there won't be any mismatch in theory but full testing will be required in due course. For that reason the release of these won't be final.



--

[fam621]

--

Nice work and boy does that station building fit in well with the platforms.

[KneeOn]

Thank you.


Buildings are being built at a nice rate. I've decided to omit some of the variants for the LUL1 building, mostly because it felt somewhat redundant and wouldn't match the overall style of the building i've used as a base. For reference, I've used Oakwood and Osterly station's, taken from this article: https://londonist.com/london/transport/tube-station-illustrations-architecture?fbclid=IwAR03Wi-mqhchPjNKOoru5pkLdWLamfUZcNJqnyM2FMgVmQvBEJSdfbdrTpY


I'm quite pleased with how the LUL1 has turned out. It suits overground stations for sure. I am planning on doing a LUL2 in Leslie Green inspired style. I'm not sure if I will make that over-ground compatible with rear 2px high doors yet. I may be able to do big windows at 2px high which can double as doors.


Attached are some examples of current work with no particular decisions on which of each to show.


Brick Revamp is a red brick hybrid station building set. It doesn't specifically link with any station type. The red brick canopy station will get a re-paint of the brown brick canopy station tiles to fit with that station set.


Red and brown brick classic platforms are designed to fit with the stone. I may repaint these in red/brown brick and have stone buildings for colours.


Stone Revamp is the hybrid stone buildings, with big glass roofs, fronts or highlights on the tower.


LUL1 is the one described as above and I'm quite proud of it - it clicks with the art deco platforms including the trim.


Only two more styles to consider and paint, some recolouring and then its neatening the stations, removing guidelines and paking time for a quick beta test and release. I'll be painting more this week to and from some of my shifts and then finishing the platforms paking next week on my days off - all should be on course!


Feedback appreciated as always.

[fam621]

When you get onto the railway infrastructure, I would suggest sticking with the trackset used by Carl in his pakset but make less but different track types as opposed to using a whole track set with different speed limits (although realistic, I feel like its too much and often goes unused). I would suggest the following (in order of max. speed):
-Type 1 - Heavy (100km/h)
-Type 2 - Light (120km/h)
-Type 3 - Light (145km/h)
-Type 4 - Medium (160km/h)
-Type 5 - Medium (200km/h)
-Type 6 - Heavy (320km/h)

Light - Light weighted trains (i.e. Metro and Light Rail)
Medium - Medium weighted trains (i.e. Lighter Freight Wagons, Lighter Locomotives, Multiple Units, Passenger Coaches)
Heavy - Heavy weighted trains (i.e. Heavier Freight Wagons, Heavier Locomotives)

[KneeOn]

I agree with the principle, especially having a slow and heavy track for freight only lines. I'd definitely add a very slow depot track though. Carl's track set is for a very detailed map rather than general gameplay so I'll be trimming the excess off.


The issue with using Carl's set of tracks is, even reduced, that is still 21 individual menu entries for track work (3*7, 3 pieces per speed), 50(ish) stations entries, 40(ish) station buildings and we haven't gone on to signals, depots, boxes or electrification, bridges and tunnels yet. Having all signal types will present additional menu items.


On a HD screen, that'll be perhaps 3 or 4 rows which isn't awful. OPEC and similar countries have a simutrans following however, where resolutions may be lower and half the screen could be menu!


There is a balance to be found here, I very much like Carl's set of tracks and don't love having the ground tile flank the ballast. I also want the menu to be accessible, serve the right functions and not have a minimum resolution requirement to play in practice, even if not in theory.


Perhaps it'll be that the set ships with a more limited set of tracks with ballast flanked by the ground tile.


I'll know more once I've got myself a working alpha to test and everything rail has been painted.


On a side note are you able to look at rolling axel weight and it's relationship to speed limits, track wear etc? If not I'll search the NWR archive for wear per ton per mile or something similar. The track wear feature is well documented.

[KneeOn]

Evening, mini update.

There are a reduced number of LUL buildings. As mentioned, LUL1 lacks the shop and the hall.
LUL2 has a further limited amount, it has entrance, office and tower because having shop/parade/hall was redundant and looked too minor to justify having those changes. It is overground compatible to cater for those who want to use it in that way but the building suits a non-overground station more than LUL1.

I've started on the 'pillar' set - this is going to at least have entrance which is almost done! Below is a sample. The buildings on this set will grow as per the other buildings, but there will be some differences.

Firstly, it will have a grander roof from hall onwards.

Tower may not be the traditional tower, but two small towers flanking the front angled roof you can see. I may incorporate these two towers earlier and still have a traditional 'tower' as per the others but this one may extend all the way across to have a 'wall to wall' feel if I can get it to slot together. I'll have a play. I'm hoping this work will be done this week, to give me time to build the basic platforms, remove all guidelines, pak, test that the paks draw and building views are correct, iron out any pixel issues and then I'll be releasing both on this thread and on the standard pak64 addons board in a new thread. Discussion around development will continue here with a focus on extended but there may be considerations to give on the standard board, similar to how other paksets have two boards. I'm not sure if this is the correct thing to do!

Anyway, enjoy your first pillar entrance.


Edit: So there is a couple of catastrophic mistakes which mean i'm essentially starting from scratch. Pakset development and pixel drawing absolutely sucks sometimes!

[KneeOn]

Update: I had a complete and I believe irreparable failure of my laptop last week. It's completely bricked/dead

Luckily I have been able to recover files from the SSD on to my brother in laws old, must be plugged in, 5 generations old, no graphics card laptop today so I will review what I have lost - hopefully just the file I was working on when the laptop decided to stop being a laptop.

Best case scenario - I've lost 30 minutes work.
Worst case scenario - I've lost a days work.

I will be backing up online (this should have been done using onedrive but it wasn't, which is infuriating but lucky hasn't mattered because I've been able to do the SSD trick).

It might mean a week or so delay while I get everything on here set up and lose time I could have spent working on the train because the laptop won't run on battery but i'll consider where i'm at as the weeks ahead unfold.

Project is still alive, just frustrated by the broken laptop and really poor consumer market right now for purchasing a laptop of sufficient spec to do all the other things I need it to do and how much that will cost should the warranty not cover it.

[Carl]

Sorry to hear that - really annoying thing to have happened. I live in fear of that sort of thing - especially the backups failing....

[KneeOn]

It's a stinker, I've still not looked in to what I have lost but I'm confident it's going to be okay.  I have only lost the building I was working on. Everything else remains and I am now backing up the entirety of the work via email online.

Once I've drawn the pillar/tower/grander entrance tiles, I'll Pak, test and release. Corner tiles for wrap around terminating platforms are going to wait for now but will eventually be done.

Ao.com have zero% finance but I'm going to hold off and carrying on saving for now - the lack of after work drinks mean I have more opportunities to save the money to replace the laptop out right and I can continue, albeit on a slower, older, not as portable device.

I tried to run the Bridgewater-Brunel final save map to see what it was like, this couldn't load it.


EDIT:


I have spent this morning happily finishing off the building I lost. Thankfully that was building 41/41. I have also, boringly, created the scaled images for the menu entries for the station buildings. This has had to go on a separate image because it would be far, far more time consuming to make the image and then expand the document, paste the menu item in the right place and then save. 


I get to do it all again for all station platforms once I've done the classic platforms and then the bare platforms! Not the most exciting part of the process, but dat files shouldn't take too long.


Enjoy a preview of what the menu items will look like for all 41 station buildings I have painted to get an idea of what to expect!

[KneeOn]

A diary entry/thinking aloud on this development diary/thread I have running.

I have finished the station buildings graphics - menu, preview, all 4 rotations in both summer and winter varieties.
I have finished all modern station buildings I have drawn, all coloured appropriately with their menu and preview graphics.

Remaining:
Paint the bare platform in modern both island and sides - that'll be a quick paint.
Copy all stations and colour for classic platforms - that'll be a quick colour map
Scale all images for the classic variants - slightly time consuming
Export all images - a quick job
Write all dat files using the very clever find/replace/save as features - shouldn't take too long. I'll be doing both standard and experimental but only after checking if there are any specific extended changes for stations and extension buildings.
Makeobj
Test
Release

It seems like an awful lot of work. It's not small, but it is far smaller than the month I've spent painting these stations and extensions. As mentioned I have had a loss of my laptop so won't be able to work on this to and from work which slows progress. Ultimately I think we get 80 buildings or platforms, I haven't yet counted.

I will make a new thread on pak64 standard child board for the release and keep that a bit less rambling than this one.

What's next? What's the roadmap now? When will we get some more stuff?
Signals. Track Circuit Block and 4 types of signal boxes to be released as soon as they are done. This will achieve the minimum stated aim of getting Carls trains workable as an addon, in extended, as they are. I've got no idea how much work goes in to the signals in extended, so there's no time frame on this.

Curiosities! Attractions! I'm going to get some single tile ones going. We move towards an alpha if we do a few. Likely to be parks, small statues, small venues etc.

Industries. Power, some various types of sea and land based ones. This will involve researching the new fields etc. I've not played since these became a thing so that'll take some trial and error I think. Again, this moves us all closer to an alpha. At worst, it'll be a comprehensive addon for pak64 and extended as it stands. At best, it could stand alone in some form.

Some other things: I will not be doing extra/new track equipment - by this i mean redrawing pantos or adding third/fourth rail. This is simply because I don't think its needed as much as other things. Third rail has time and time again added nothing. Fourth rail can add something so I will consider that if we get more 64 px tube trains.

That's where we are at, with what's left for this station addon and where we are heading after that gets released.

I'll review this roadmap once the above is done for getting more content out asap. Once I have a V0.1 going, content will be added rather than hoarded up for a release until we get to something I'm happy to call beta. Beta will be bursting with content but unbalanced I think.

As ever, thank you for reading and please chip in with thoughts/ideas etc.
See ya'll soon with the stations!

[Milko]

Hi KneeOn, great job. Thanks.

One thing I don't understand, is the pak based on Carl's pak64 experimenta or the standard 64?

Giuseppe

[KneeOn]

Neither, it's based solely on his UK trains, tracks and the buses from his game save.


It's also going to feature some pak64 elements such as ground tiles/terrains/half heights.


It will be released as both an experimental and standard set.


EDIT: I realise what you mean - it was early when I answered! I am not basing this on any existing work, i'm building it around Carls trains (and buses). I will use ground tiles from pak64, which (i think) are the same across both the extended and standard branches because they fit and I don't think i'm going to make my own any time soon.


I will, for alpha, also be using some elements such as airports and docks but on the V.1 there won't be any buildings shared with the original pak64, there will be British themed airports, docks, stations, depots, busses, roads, buildings, attractions, industry etc.


v1 won't be the most fleshed pakset available however it will have British attractions and buildings.


Apart from a minor graphical change (adding 'C' and 'M' for classic and modern platforms to help distinguish the menu icons) I have now finished all graphical work! I'll be doing that work tomorrow and Sunday and paking up over the next week and a half.

[KneeOn]

Update: The big one.

Here we have it. I have uploaded on to dropbox my pak64 station/extensions in all its glory. Link to the forum article: https://forum.simutrans.com/index.php/topic,19922.new.html#new

Please, feedback to me what you like/don't like.



I hope you all enjoy it.

[KneeOn]

Hello, firstly I am taking a short break from painting.

The reason for this is my laptop will be repaired and returned as new to me! This has a HD screen and can be taken on trains to work, so I'd rather wait for that to arrive. This is a few days at most, and in the mean time I'm looking in to making signals for both extended and standard, what they require and how to write the dat files - so rest assured this isn't a long pause.

I've updated the front post however I thought I'd also post here. Simutrans had a spike of popularity with Steam and is still averaging a few hundred downloads a week.

That said, I'd love to do my bit to generate more interest and I think social media is ripe for plugging and pushing content and generating interest.

Therefore i have made two accounts.

Firstly, I'm on twitter @Pak64GB

Secondly I'm on Facebook @Pak64GB with a page title of Pak64.GB - Simutrans

If you're so inclined, give it a like or a follow to see smaller updates. I will be posting long posts on here still but once the laptop is back, more "behind the scenes" one off screenshots of development will be posted on those pages. There won't be a disparity between here and the feeds however, all information for development will be on here while all releases will be on the appropriate board, for Standard and Experimental files to keep bug reporting and feedback nice and clean.

[Carl]

Good thinking - social media is especially good for sharing images etc - those seem to be particularly good at driving interest. I'd recommend posting a link to the main Simutrans fan page on facebook too:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/83052149546

and maybe also to the discord - I think this is the link

[KneeOn]

When I get the laptop back it'll be easier to manage the page and I'll get links shared a bit more.


It's weird, there's a small and close community that I don't think makes up a significant portion of the player base!

[KneeOn]

So it's been two weeks since my last update and I thought i'd give a brief update. I've been tweeting/posting on Facebook sporadically and once development restarts fully i'll be sharing progress between releases on there, with a few selected bits put here.

I am getting a new (and much better) laptop delivered hopefully this week and have already bought a mouse to use.

I've noticed several bugs with the station pak set - the main one being all icons have 'M' rather than 'C' or 'M' denoting a classic or modern platform scheme - i'll get that fixed asap. I've also noticed that I can't find some of my buildings, i'm sure I have them somewhere on an email I sent to back them up so will look in to that. That'll be because of the porting from the old laptop to this one, hopefully i've not lost work.

In the mean time, I've been looking and learning about signalling. I'm considering how many pixels to use for each light - 4 px in a 2x2 arrangement per light seems like that might be a touch too many for a 4 aspect signal but i'll tinker about some more. I've also drawn my first signal box and have an idea for the second one which will be more modern.

I also gave consideration to any 'quick wins' for variation in sports attractions. I did say my ambition would be to draw all 92 football league stadiums however I've reconsidered this. It would be a project in and of its self to do that much work, likely incorporating painting 16-32 tiles, per rotation, per stadium. That is several thousand tiles to paint and i'd rather work on getting this pakset drawn.

It has been mentioned by Wlindley that recycling tiles can be just as useful as re-colouring buildings to build in lots of visually varied and engaging graphics with 128.Britain using this method for several attractions.

I will be considering using this for football and sports venues. Having three types of seating, in two or more eras would be a lot less work and much like the stations would be designed to slot together. Something like:
Lower tier end, lower tier middle, lower tier end modern
Upper tier end, upper tier middle, upper tier end modern
Lower tier end, lower tier middle, lower tier end classic
Upper tier end, upper tier middle, upper tier end classic
Blank, office, blank with food carts
From these I can create stadiums between 1-4 sides, with additional tiers on 1-4 sides at possibly a 2x4, 3x6 or 4x8 sized attraction.

That's a lot, lot less to draw than all 92 stadiums. Just those tiles would work out at 120 tiles required for the biggest stadium of two tiers plus some space around the side for offices or food stalls or blank land for waiting to get in.

In one colour I estimate that would be around 30 stadiums of varying sizes and eras. It's not a lot more work to add a few different colours of seating.
With the addition of colours that can interchange with each other to make interesting striped seating blocks or solid block colours that would make a UK sized map have plenty of football teams represented in game without being the same building multiplied across the map.

The same concept can be applied to parks - by doing a series of 1x1 parks without fences initially, it's not a small leap to add fences for those 1x1 tiles and then the suitable fences for the outer tiles on 1x2, 2x2, 3x2, 3x3, 4x3 and so on, so small local parks up to large city parks are catered for.

This can also be applied to shopping centres, museums, closed roof arenas and possibly more.

If I get a chance to mock up some of these stadium tiles tonight I will.

That's where I am at, it's been nice to have a small break but I am really keen to get started again!

[KneeOn]

Signal boxes are now finished for TCB and ERTMS. There is a facebook post with these on: https://www.facebook.com/pak64gb/posts/134011144993158
Twitter also has some updates on various bits of progress: https://twitter.com/Pak64GB

These include in-development and mock ups of a stadium and the progress of the signal boxes.

There is a post about the stadium on Facebook too.

Briefly, I made a stadium but the corner pieces didn't quite fit in. I will use my template of 2 rows of 4 ground tiles by duplicating the ground tiles upwards to act as a roof. This should then mean they fit nicely for the sides and ends of a stand, with the same being applied to roofing so there might be a completed stadium graphics set this afternoon. Luckily, things like roof supports as seen on the social media pages can simply be copied and pasted, as can the type of banking so it is about tweaking these to actually fit together to make a single tier bowl. End pieces are an easy one to make non-bowl stadiums (i.e. 4 separate stands).


EDIT: I'm asking for feedback on the three signal types i've designed - these have call on and diverging route indicators (although both won't be present on any signal at the moment, that might change down the line). Here is the tweet: https://twitter.com/Pak64GB/status/1272896727310381057


And here is the image:


A selection of the work:

[fam621]

Nice work bud. Hopefully trains will be next

[KneeOn]

Sorting trains for extended is much, much lower down the list of jobs to do for the moment. The priority is getting a sandbox playable release rather than sorting out the tiny details on the trains themselves because that's going to be part of balancing anyway. I also need to read about what the changes in traction/breaking/other parameters mean which is a big task on its own.

I'd be surprised if I were to refresh the dat files for Carls trains this year.

Any thoughts on which signal looks best/easiest to play?

[Carl]

Hard to tell on the signals without seeing them in-game. I'd guess that the lights on the middle one are too small, but not sure.

[fam621]

Sorting trains for extended is much, much lower down the list of jobs to do for the moment. The priority is getting a sandbox playable release rather than sorting out the tiny details on the trains themselves because that's going to be part of balancing anyway. I also need to read about what the changes in traction/breaking/other parameters mean which is a big task on its own.

I'd be surprised if I were to refresh the dat files for Carls trains this year.

Any thoughts on which signal looks best/easiest to play?

Signal number one looks the best and in terms of trains dm me

[KneeOn]

Thanks, the hard creative work on making signals is done, it's just systematically creating the up to 76 individual pngs to cover each state across each aspect and each signal type.

I'll get going on the signals

Gamer i'll DM you when the time comes for trains to be updated to extended standard.

[Carl]

Not sure if I said elsewhere, but the work on the stadiums is really impressive and the early stuff on signals looks great!

Stadiums, along with golf courses, are one of those things that I always wish I could show visually on the GB map whenever they occur.

[KneeOn]

I rather ambitiously planned on doing all 92 football league stadiums - there is no way I can turn that out, they're really awkward to match up!


Thankfully the stadium is now fit together graphically and the pitch is designed. It'll be an evening of angrily changing a dat file once i've finished the last bits of the signals best described as 'misc' like one way/end of choose/exclude from choose.


Thank you for the kind words!

[Carl]

Doing all 92 stadiums might seem a bit more achievable if you weren't trying to, you know, build a whole pakset as well 

[KneeOn]

It's more that I don't think i'd be able to get the detail in several of the stadiums!


It's almost full time in the second premier league game. As promised, here is the stadium. I've given it the awful name of Holmes Park, this will change. It's one colour so far but again, other colours will be made available tomorrow. I'm going to paint some ground tiles to have some 2/3 sided stadiums as well and hopefully a stadium pak AND a signal pak will come by next week or Sunday if I'm not called in to work.


Drop box link: https://www.dropbox.com/s/i9kc9lo38j3i0dr/building.HolmesPark.pak?dl=0


Feedback is appreciated. Full zoom has some distortion, it's nothing major.


It only comes in Summer view for today but you might want to see how it works. Any future update will have the name "Holmes Park" so you can put it straight in and not lose your stadium.


EDIT: I contradicted my self in the post - the name won't change so when winter view is added, it can slot in to games rather than have the 'removed building' error.

[fam621]

Change of idea, signal 2 looked the best as signals irl are never to be bigger than OHLE catenary (unless the signal is on a gantry)

[KneeOn]

I've drawn them in the first style, the trade off between realism and game play makes it awkward. I agree, the smaller signals do match real life a lot more.


I'm currently setting up my new laptop and getting all my various files consolidated across the old laptop and the new one. Hopefully I'm working from home over the weekend so I can finish off any graphics outstanding.


If testing shows that it does look really silly with the first style, i'll try that one.


If I get time I might just do both and let users pick which one they want but we start to complicate things when that sort of choice gets offered.


EDIT: A compromise might be to have LED signalling - this is in use and fast becoming the standard during major upgrades. It has the added bonus of fitting the scale better. I like the nostalgic feel of colour lights though, I'm not sure.

[KneeOn]

The signals are painted, icons and cursors will need updating. I have managed to get them in to pak ngb, and in to exp-64 however neither of these fully load in the latest nightly. This means for testing I will need to start actually making a pak-set with associated dat files etc.

I have no idea how to do this so any release of simutrans-extended feature dependant things will be delayed.

I also want to re-paint the signals slightly. There was some weird overlapping going on - probably because they're drawn on the left by default so don't clip properly. I'll have to amend all graphics - this is just copy and pasting in to a template so shouldn't be too much effort but it all adds up when tackling something new.

I'll continue painting non-extended reliant buildings etc because once the pakset is done they'll work across both.

If anyone has any tips on doing this part i'd be very grateful!

I have a habit of posting, then going back to trying and fixing my problems and managing to fix them!


I now have a test-bed for all extended features. I've loaded in the stations, signals, buildings and Carls non-modular railway tracks and will load in my own City buildings and other bits shortly. There is work to do with the signals but this is a big step towards a release. I will compare menus with other extended paksets and see what features need adjusting for my menu (which is currently the most recent pak64 menu).

[KneeOn]

A smaller but none the less promising update is that track circuit block signals of 2, 3 and 4 aspects with choose and call on (permissive working) are now finished. The choose and 'normal' signals are tested and can be seen here alongside the first depot which is currently just a testing depot and not yet configured for any specific traction type.

Trains can leave the station and enter the junction up until where the signal protecting the junction has reserved. This means starter signals will be needed and I might combine these 'starter signals' with end-of-choose signals for a total station signal solution. One way signals including in these starter signals as an option might also make sense to ensure down line trains don't hold up line trains in station should the user require.

Let me know what you think!

[fam621]

Brilliant stuff there mate. However just as a bit of a knowledge booster, all station platform choosing signals are always 2 aspect - caution (yellow) and danger (red).

[KneeOn]

I'll add a 2-aspect caution/danger signal in that case (and in hindsight I should have recalled that the buffer lights are ALWAYS danger signals which was a silly slip of the mind) however not all station choose signals go on terminating station approaches and there would be some instances where a 3 or 4 aspect signal would be required such as through stations.


Haywards Heath station on the Brighton Main Line has choose signals (which are better described as signals with a directional indicator in reality) to go from the 2 track section at Haywards Heath Tunnel in to the station on the up line.


You can be routed straight ahead in which case for Gatwick Express services not stopping at HHE would display a clear (green) with no diverting indication or you can be routed in platform 1 (I think it's 1, if not 4). This would display an indication and a caution unless the route is set all the way through the station such as for engineering trains or if there is a disruption on the main route (as it would be described in Simutrans). There are other situations where 3/4 aspect signals with a clear aspect is required such as junctions with further signals between the junction and the station.


Station signals absolutely need to be included - both starter signals and terminating platform choose indications (as you mentioned) and i'll work on adding those for 0.1.


Thinking about how best to accurately reflect a starter signal graphically in the tight confines of 2 light pixels across is a challenge. Having an CD/RA indicator below the signal would look like permissive working and therefore confusing potentially. I also need to add end-of-choose and one-way variations to these signals to help the player understand which signal is where and for an engaging graphic representation of each signal.


I think in this there will be some departure from reality. Having and 'end of choose' signal is its self a departure from relaity because in reality a signal box would control the movements staffed with experts on that line of route rather than a sign letting a driver know they can't choose a platform any more since the driver never does this. It's important to consider this.


I've used a real notice board for that - the 'no [unit type] beyond this point' blue boarder, red cross in white box. I've used a standard 'STOP' board of a red circle on a white boarder for one way. It is a real sign, used across the network. It fits the nature of the game.


I think a 2 px blue band would suffice for end of choose (i.e. the thing which makes this signal specifically a starter signal!), a 2px band on one red, one white pointing AWAY from the signals (i.e. facing the rear) would suffice for one way. Neither of these would be lit.


What then becomes a challenge is getting some sort of starting signal graphically represented.


It may be a CD/RA indicator to the side of the top most light on each aspect which is made up of 2px in the unlit route indication colour, changing to the lit indication colour in any proceed aspect (i.e not danger).


The above isn't exactly accurate but there are some aspects of the game which aren't exactly true to life and require some level of compromise and it would still retain the 'feel' of the other signals, using shared colours and principles such as the white/red rear do not pass boards, a modified CD/RA indicator etc.


Having a CD/RA indicator may not actually be required, since a starting signal would be shown by the blue band (and possibly a rear facing white/red one for one way signals) but I think having something else to show CD/RA/OFF might be good.


All of these are actually very easy additions by modifying the existing aspect signals so I could knock them up over the next 14 days.

I'd be curious for your thoughts on those compromises with starter signals?

[fam621]

A platform starting signal would have the CD and RA indicators on them which are located below the signal

[KneeOn]

Indeed, however that would look too similar to the permissive working signals were a shunt signal is located below the main signal on this pakset. Each signal should be distinctly different graphically for players to be able to see at a glance which signal is in use.


Strictly speaking having CD/RA or OFF signals aren't needed, but I think some lit up representation would be helpful at night and help further distinguish the signal.


Having made a signal with 2x2 blue and then a 2x2 white board below that to the read it isn't easy to see which is which from afar. I'm thinking a 2x4 white and red board facing the rear for one way signals and some sort of white light somewhere other than below for both one and bi directional signals might look better. Of course station starting signals would have the end-of-choose parameter. They also have the added benefit of removing some track side clutter, especially around busy termini.


I need to check if there is a "exclude from choose" option on extended. I'll need one for standard anyway but that would further assist in pathing trains where some platforms are reserved for specific services.

[Vladki]

I need to check if there is a "exclude from choose" option on extended. I'll need one for standard anyway but that would further assist in pathing trains where some platforms are reserved for specific services.

The end if choose signals in extended are coded in the same way as in standard.  The only difference is that choose signals look for alterntative paths also for trains not stopping in the station.

[fam621]

The end if choose signals in extended are coded in the same way as in standard.  The only difference is that choose signals look for alterntative paths also for trains not stopping in the station.

That would actually be a good idea as trains that don't stop at a station with multiple passing lines often have to wait behind other trains

[KneeOn]

The end if choose signals in extended are coded in the same way as in standard.  The only difference is that choose signals look for alterntative paths also for trains not stopping in the station.

Sorry for the confusion, are end-of-choose signals also exclude from choose?

Pak64 has not got an end-of-choose (i.e. the end point of alternate routing). It only has exclude (i.e. this platform/route is not available for alternate routing).

The end result, you're saying, is the same thing - on a 4 platform station, if there is a choose signal and one end-of-choose between that signal and the start of the platform then trains won't go through?

Signalling was one of the first differences I noticed upon returning to Simutrans and I'm still working bits out, so thank you!

[Vladki]

There are no differences between paksets. Only between standard and extended. We are talking about sign with

Code Select Expand


obj=roadsign
end_of_choose=1

In extended it works (or should work) as in standard - "exclude platform from choose"  plus as end marker for alternative route search.

The end result, you're saying, is the same thing - on a 4 platform station, if there is a choose signal and one end-of-choose between that signal and the start of the platform then trains won't go through?

Trains won't use that platform, but will try some other path. It is good to put end-of-choose on the track ahead of station where you want to stop the search. See this scrrenshot: http://list.extended.simutrans.org/~simutrans/screenshots/Screenshot_20200623_012411.png
It may  be not clear at the first sight as the end-of-choose signs look similar to one way signs.

[KneeOn]

Thanks Vladki, that clears that up nicely. I wasn't aware Standard uses end-of-choose for its exclude from choose parameter and thought they were different!


Happily that means I don't actually need to paint another graphic!


I've noticed when placing a signal on the end of a platform it gets obstructed by the platform on some views but not others so will tweak around the datfile and see if I can set the image to be a front image for a signal and if that helps or if I need to change where the signal sits in the PNG.


I'm now working out what remaining buildings I need to paint for V0.1, and some of these will be released as I go for people to use if they still play Carl's Pak on their own maps - things like parks etc. There is still a fair bit of work ahead but I'm stream lining my working methods and testing stuff.

[KneeOn]

Hello,

I am popping this here although it isn't yet strictly speaking extended ready (and there are no up to date extended paksets).

I've drawn a shopping centre! Notionally a 3x2 building with two 1x2 car parks at each end for a 5x2 size.

The download link is here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/2o7ahw9uqh0dx9e/building.Shopping%20Centre%201.pak?dl=0
This includes trees taken from pak64, available on this forum and at simutrans.com of course.

4 rotations, 2 seasons as per all my work.

Feedback is always appreciated!

A screenshot of the work in game:
 

[Carl]

I like that a lot! One thing I've been meaning to do is a spectrum of car park tiles from empty to full. That would probably enrich this, too.

[KneeOn]

Thanks Carl! Funnily enough, apart from a few smaller buildings where car park spaces haven't been much of the overall building, I've deliberately held off car parks.


Firstly, I need to think about city cars in general and then use those models to populate.


Secondly until today I've not been able to get the car park spaces to work for me. As it happens, by stitching together the building then using tile cutter not only is it quicker and easier to make the buildings dat file, it also works wonders for my scale, simply splitting the space across both tiles makes it look better!


This is just one shopping center I plan on doing. It's a touch small, I have plans for up to 6x6 but I'm working up from small to large to see what I actually think is the maximum size I would like.


I will certainly use the car parks and populate them accordingly in the stadium too, which is why I've held off doing the full winter view etc. Know I can make spaces fit that'll hopefully be done in the next fortnight.

[KneeOn]

I've updated the running log of released work which currently stands at the stations pack and two shopping centres.

I'm doing all the attractions before I move on to the factory chains if you can't tell. This is a big bit of work with quite a lot planned!

Using the modular, shared asset approach means I do already have two more shopping centres from the parts i've created, if not a third by combining parts. I do want one or two more styles and then i'll make some colour variations where appropriate to show an older brown brick style, a more modern red brick style or a flagship grey style.

They're not yet extended compatible so I won't be sharing them here until they are any more.

[KneeOn]

I've been steadily releasing some WIP paks for players to use in an unbalanced form over the last few weeks. We now have three shopping centres and a police station.

Carl has started painting more British styled buildings for his maps, albeit without them being designed for normal playing usage (rotations and winter views for example). We agreed by using his work, this pakset can have more content once it has been rotated, snowed on and styled to the overall theme and painting styles I'm using.

The key difference which poses a question is scale. I've been using 5px per floor height, while Carl is using between 5.5 and 6.5 per floor.

The question is is 5px a touch short, or is 6/7px per floor more suitable? It won't be a tall order to match a 6/7px scale, just a lot of grunt work. I have to re-export photos and re-pak anyway because of the lost work although I do still have all source files.

Thoughts on scale?

[KneeOn]

It's been a while - I've been distracted with work, study and playing other games. The project hasn't left my mind for long at any time though and I got the itch to start drawing again.

On the facebook page you can see all the work done so far: https://www.facebook.com/pak64gb but attached are some examples of the work I've done for industry chains!

[KneeOn]

I have finished 8 industry chain graphics including 3 type of fruit (which are, essentially, one type of industry at this time), vegetables, beer, cider, bread and clothing. This inches the pakset closer to a first release!

I'm going to revisit the train stations before I release anything - they can and will be better. I'm streamlining the number of station buildings, and will consider how else I can bring the options down to better game play and less simple visual differences. Watch this space!