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Author Topic: Horse cart throughout the times?  (Read 1034 times)

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Offline 1993matias

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Horse cart throughout the times?
« on: March 23, 2020, 08:29:53 AM »
First of all, thanks for a nice pakset!Just a small, but annoying, issue here. The horse cart just keeps spawning all the time, jamming all the traffic everywhere with its (by modern standards) ridiculously low top speed... Cars don't seem to be able to overtake it as they just get jammed alongside it. It's quite disruptive to my bus services when they get trapped behind such a snail ...

Is it some specific building that keeps spawning them? Is it an income class? Or is it defined by something else?
The year is now 1953, I imagine they shouldn't spawn at all any more?

Screenshot of one of the many horse carts:


Offline Spenk009

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Re: Horse cart throughout the times?
« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2020, 07:29:54 PM »
The retire dates for the three types of citycar horse carts are:
  • HorseCart(Brown), 1935/3
  • HorseCart(Grey) 1922/12
  • HorseCart(Turquoise) 1954/5

I too have noticed these creating serious traffic jams. These dates look specifically chosen, so it's a question of gameplay. I reckon that especially in the times after the war, it would not be impossible to see someone using the horse cart to get into town after they've exhausted their fuel reserves.

Offline Matthew

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Re: Horse cart throughout the times?
« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2020, 09:20:51 PM »
I have also noticed this and I agree that it is frustrating. I have seen a single horse and cart create a traffic jam that stretched through several cities.

But I think the timeline is roughly right, maybe even abolishing them a little early. I remember an episode of Hancock's Half Hour (1954-61) that featured a car stuck behind a horse and cart as a plot point. And Steptoe and Son (1962-74) had a working horse until the end of the run.

IMHO the underlying problem is that motor cars (autos) do not often overtake the horses and carts. When I was testing the private-car-routing branches, I often saw cars try and fail to overtake to the cars. I seem to remember reading in this forum that the overtaking code is elderly and far from an ideal solution, though I am glad we have it! I wonder whether the easiest workaround might actually be to reduce the maximum speed of horses and carts in the late 1940s and 1950s, in order to give motor cars a better chance of overtaking them.

Offline 1993matias

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Re: Horse cart throughout the times?
« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2020, 10:10:15 PM »
Thanks for your replies. The year is now 1955, so no more horse carts spawning (thankfully).

I recognize it being a conscious decision by the developers, so instead of trying to change that... How can I make them not spawn? Is there a local file I can easily edit?

Offline Vladki

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Re: Horse cart throughout the times?
« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2020, 10:43:18 PM »
Probably removing the corresponding pak files, or editing the sources and making them retire earlier in timeline.
But the best would be if overtaking algorithms are improved, to allow for more overtaking. Similar problem is with mail bikes...

Offline jamespetts

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Re: Horse cart throughout the times?
« Reply #5 on: March 29, 2020, 12:27:52 PM »
The horse cart timeline is indeed intentional, and, as has been observed, realistic. The overtaking code does need improving, but that would be a very large undertaking indeed.

If anyone would like to volunteer, that would be very helpful.

Offline Matthew

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Re: Horse cart throughout the times?
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2020, 04:23:51 PM »
It has occurred to me that there is another aspect to this problem which may explain why it so annoying.

In the mid-20th century, the amount of private car usage increases dramatically.
For High class passengers: 1935 33% 1945 40% 1950 60%
For Medium class passengers: 1935 3% 1945 5% 1951 21% 1955 25%

Although the horse cart distributionweight also falls (38 points until 1922, 20 points until 1935, 8 points until May 1954), my very subjective impression is that there are more horse carts around in the early 1950s than earlier, because routes that were previously running fine are now being delayed.

When we were doing the private car testing earlier this year, I noticed that a relatively small number of horse carts were able to eventually gridlock a whole map as every other vehicle queued up behind them.

I do like the realism of having horse carts around in the early 1950s, but I'm not convinced that British roads had more horse carts in 1953 than in 1923. Perhaps the distributionweights should be further altered? Basically re-use existing graphics so that there is a lower distributionweight for horse carts in the late 1940s and especially early 1950s.

Offline jamespetts

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Re: Horse cart throughout the times?
« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2020, 05:27:34 PM »
That is an interesting idea - in principle, one could replace one horse cart with another one with a much lower distributionweight but otherwise identical at various points in the time line (e.g. 1909, 1921, 1930, 1947) so as to cause an exponential reduction in the number of horse carts appearing in game so that they are quite rare by the early 1950s, but still appearing occasionally.

Offline Vladki

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Re: Horse cart throughout the times?
« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2020, 07:02:19 PM »
Isn't it caused by the fact that in simutrans a horse cart is considered to be a private car? And that if you increase the amount of private cars you increase the amount of horse carts as well.
So the timeline of increasing private cars should be in sync with reducing the distributionweight of horse carts. And If I read those numbers correctly, distributionwieght is constant between 1935-1954, while amount of private car increases fro 3 to 25 % (for mid-class). So to keep the number of horse cart declining there should be "new" horse carts at 1935, 1945, 1950, and none since 1955; with distribution weights maybe about: 8, 4, 1.

Offline freddyhayward

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Re: Horse cart throughout the times?
« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2020, 01:56:25 AM »
If distribution weights are always relative, couldn't the amount of horse carts be reduced by increasing the distribution weights of motorised cars?

Offline TheRoadmaster1996

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Re: Horse cart throughout the times?
« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2020, 02:45:55 PM »
The year is now 1953, I imagine they shouldn't spawn at all any more?

What about the Amish? In Pennsylvania and Ohio, there are still Amish communities (though not many) and they still use horse and buggies not to mention Mackinac Island in Michigan where there are no cars allowed on the island (except maybe emergency service vehicles like ambulances) but even the town cops use bikes and sometimes snowmobiles in the wintertime. When I was there two years ago, they were offering guided tours of the island like the fort from the War of 1812 on buggies, or you can walk or bike ride. If anyone is in that part of the world, I highly recommend visiting Mackinac Island. It is a neat place with a lot of history.

Offline Matthew

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Re: Horse cart throughout the times?
« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2020, 03:41:33 PM »
If distribution weights are always relative, couldn't the amount of horse carts be reduced by increasing the distribution weights of motorised cars?

Yes, as you know it's a mathematical identity. But it seems more work to change all the motorized carts rather than adjusting the horse carts, which are the thing we actually want to change. Especially if there is more than one step to the change.

What about the Amish? In Pennsylvania and Ohio, there are still Amish communities (though not many) and they still use horse and buggies not to mention Mackinac Island in Michigan where there are no cars allowed on the island (except maybe emergency service vehicles like ambulances) but even the town cops use bikes and sometimes snowmobiles in the wintertime. When I was there two years ago, they were offering guided tours of the island like the fort from the War of 1812 on buggies, or you can walk or bike ride. If anyone is in that part of the world, I highly recommend visiting Mackinac Island. It is a neat place with a lot of history.

That would be a great reason to include horse carts in your US pak. This forum is Pak128.Britain-Ex though.  :P

If your US pak uses the Artistic Licence (or a compatible licence) why not copy across the horse cart files? This  file is a good place to start.

Isn't it caused by the fact that in simutrans a horse cart is considered to be a private car? And that if you increase the amount of private cars you increase the amount of horse carts as well.
So the timeline of increasing private cars should be in sync with reducing the distributionweight of horse carts. And If I read those numbers correctly, distributionwieght is constant between 1935-1954, while amount of private car increases fro 3 to 25 % (for mid-class). So to keep the number of horse cart declining there should be "new" horse carts at 1935, 1945, 1950, and none since 1955; with distribution weights maybe about: 8, 4, 1.

That's exactly what I'm suggesting.