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Inconsistent configuration for 375 electrostar

Started by Vladki, April 13, 2020, 11:16:15 PM

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Sirius

I was trying to find acceleration or force data about these whilst seearching for Eurostar data, but didn't find anything les contradictory than your sources :(
I did find a table about including rather exact seating data about class 375 and 376.
According to that source, Class 376 indeed seems to have less seats than 375. Looking at images of the interior, this seems plausible: Less "real" seats, but additionally perches and much more spare space for standing capacity.
https://web.archive.org/web/20140310142420/http://www.therailwaycentre.com/New%20EMU%20Tech%20Data/EMU_375.html
https://web.archive.org/web/20140310141822/http://www.therailwaycentre.com/New%20EMU%20Tech%20Data/EMU_376.html

Edit: at least from comparing their data about class 373 against other sources, they seem to be trustworthy.

Vladki

Thanks for extra information, I checked it and found that they have also 357, 377 and much more
https://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.therailwaycentre.com/New%20EMU%20Tech%20Data/*
- weights - were OK, here are given with higher precision (0.1 t), can be adjusted. Interesting that the centre-trailer is slightly heavier than centre-motor ... (maybe the transformer?)

- more confusion about power...
-- they say 376 has 2000 kW (which would mean same motors as 375 - 500 kW per car) Actually I like that idea, otherwise the 376 and 378 are pretty much the same - same power, same speed, low seats, lots of standing place). But how about tractive force - should we keep it high as it is lower speed commuter unit?
-- they say 357 has only 1000 kW (I hope that is error, they even write 4 engines, but 3 motor cars...)

- allow coupling 375 and 376, but not with 377. Not exactly true. Original 375 had differnet coupling (tightlock), than 376 (dellner), but many were upgraded to dellner. But easy to add. Then only 357 (tightlock) and 378 (photos look like dellner) are out of the game, should we add 378 to the group too? Or split them in DC-only group (375+376) and AC+AC/DC group ? (375/6+378+379+387). That would break with upgrades from 375 to 375/6

- seatibg capacity 357 - OK
- seating capacity 376 - is ok (I have included tip-up seats but not perch seats)
- seating capacity 375 - mine was probably only approximation to get the same numbers as on wikipedia. This source gives +8 seats on 3-car unit  (they can't add correctly = 3-car set total is OK, only differently arranged) and +6 seats on 4-car unit. The assignment is more varied, and the difference may be due to mid-life refurbishments that rearranged the first class compartment from driving cars to centre cars. And we do not have the 375/9 which has even more seats, but less comfort (3+2 arrangement).

So, my observations and conclusions
- change weights to more precise values (that is the only place where fractional numbers are allowed)
- fix the seating: TSO has wheelchair space -> less seats, more standing, overall a few more seats.
- reduce power on 376 ?  keep the tractive force ?
- allow coupling of all electrostars except 357 ?

Sirius

Sorry for not responding so far.
I don't have definite data on this and it's difficult to handle differing sources, so here are my expectations:
Class 375/376
I am just as unsure as you are.
It seems plausible to me that 375 and 376 share the same engines using different gear, as this is quite common in train families these days.
On the other hand 378 is claimed to have fewer, more powerful engines.
These are newer, so it might be a technical improvement to increase efficiency or construction costs

I'd asume 375 and 376 use the same engines with different gear.



Class 357
I'd assume 1 kW to be a typo either, it doesn't make much sense.



Coupling and electrification
If many 375 were upgraded to dellner, I'd just allow coupling of these ingame. It's not worth to make a coupleable version available as an upgrade, which would be the most consequent way to allow this.

Not sure about 357 and 378 coupling. I'd argue if it was possible to upgrade 375, the same should be possible with 357 and 378 as they are from the same train family.
In the latter case it's very likely just a software update.

I'd just allow them all to be coupled.

I'd not split them into groups by electrification types. Players might have some spare AC/DC units, which they might want to use with some AC or DC units, so I'd not restrict coupling here.
Coupling AC units do DC units directly doesn't make any sense ingame as it would require the whole line to be equipped with multi electrification.
I'm not even sure if that would work in the real-world. Depends on the software for sure.

375/3, 375/6 and 375/7 seem to be the same apart from one car less (375/3) and the additional pantograph (375/6)
In addition, all of these are prepared for an AC pantograph.
Thus, I'd not differ in between 375 and 375/6 in general, but simply allow either the DC only TSO or AC+DC TSO to be coupled just before the DMS(B)
Beware both can currently be coupled as 5, which is wrong. I'm not sure if that was noted and adjusted here.



So my conclusions:
- changing weights is a good idea.
- fixing seating is a good idea.
- Set 376 power to 500 kW per powered car, tractive force might be fine. (guess that's what you meant)
- allow coupling of electrostars, I'd not support the inability to couple 357 just because it was delivered with different coupling where others were simply upgraded as needed.
- Merge 375s to use the same cars, allowing car two to be coupled optionally and panto car to be either DC only or AC+DC

Vladki

Quote from: Freahk on June 16, 2020, 10:48:28 PMOn the other hand 378 is claimed to have fewer, more powerful engines.
It is the other way round. Class 375 has 2x250 kW, Class 378 has 3x200 kW

Quote from: Freahk on June 16, 2020, 10:48:28 PMThus, I'd not differ in between 375 and 375/6 in general, but simply allow either the DC only TSO or AC+DC TSO to be coupled just before the DMS(B)

Now there are two versions of 375 - DC an AC/DC.   DC can be upgraded to AC/DC but you have to upgrade all cars. Did such upgrade happen in real world? Was it necessary to modify all cars, or only the one with pantograph? I just guess the upgrade is not only about the pantograph, but also transformer and rectifier. But I would then expect the AC panto car to be heavier than the DC trailer car.

Also speaking about upgrades, somewhere I read that class 379 can be theoretically upgraded to 177 km/h, effectively upgrading to class 387. The question is what would that upgrade mean? Just changing the gear in bogeys? Then the 387 should have lower tractive effort, than 387.

QuoteBeware both can currently be coupled as 5, which is wrong. I'm not sure if that was noted and adjusted here.
This was discussed earlier. As some of the units were gradually upgraded from 3 to 5 cars, we can assume that such upgrade would be possible for all, if asked for. Class 375 is almost the same as 377 (differring in the coupling tightlock/dellner), and class 377 exists in 5-car units. For the needs of game we do not distinguish classes 375 and 377.

Real world lenghts are:
357: 4-car only
375: 3-4
376: 5-car only
377: 3-4-5
378: 3-4-5
379: 4-car only
387: 4-car only
I made all units to allow any of 3-4-5-car combination. I think as James said - if it was technically possible, but just not ordered, we should allow such combination.

Sirius

#39
Quote from: Vladki on June 16, 2020, 11:34:39 PMIt is the other way round. Class 375 has 2x250 kW, Class 378 has 3x200 kW
Indeed. To be more preciese, more powerful motorcars due to more less powerful engines.

Quote from: Vladki on June 16, 2020, 11:34:39 PMDid such upgrade happen in real world?
No, the later ones did not have the pantograph installed, because it was not required, they are all prepared for such an installation though.
Usually such modern train platforms are modularly designed, thus adding a pantograph does not require the whole train to be changed. Internal power supply remains the same, it's only the pantograph and some electrical equipment that need to be added and the software to be adjusted.
I have no idea where that transformer is located in the train though.

I'd also assume a higher weight in any case...
What's wrong with these sources!
In case of Velaros, the difference in between DC catenary and DC+AC Catenary is 16t, I canot imagine AC can be addded without any additional weight in Electrostars. The weight of either


Quote from: Vladki on June 16, 2020, 11:34:39 PMThe question is what would that upgrade mean? Just changing the gear in bogeys? Then the 387 should have lower tractive effort, than 387.
This is quite common practice. Change the gear, adjust the software, get inspection and approval of the upgrades, done.
In Germany, the latter is usually the most expensive and longest taking step. Manufacturers do frequently complain about the very complicated and long taking approval process of EBA, the agency appropriate for such approvals.
Siemens and Bombardier repeatedly called it the most complicated approval process in the whole world.

In any case, apart from introduction dates we don't simulate the latter, so I'd really assume adding a pantograph is a rather simple modification not involving notable modifications of the remaining part of tre train.

Vladki

#40
Wow there are different weights for AC/DC and DC-only versions of 357 at http://www.railway-centre.com/class-375.html

AC/DC: 46.2+40.5+40.7+46.2
DC-only: 43.8+36.4+34.1+43.8

So it seems that the AC->DC equipment is spread around all cars, and a possible upgrade should involve all of them.

Another source: https://www.wikiwand.com/en/British_Rail_Class_379
(also for other units) -EDIT - wikiwand looks like reformatted wikipedia

Vladki

New pull request here:
https://github.com/jamespetts/simutrans-pak128.britain/pull/91
Includes weight/capacity fixes, allowed combination of all except 357, reduced power on 376.