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Author Topic: Modern rail vehicles for pak128.britain-ex  (Read 6318 times)

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Offline Freahk

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Re: Modern rail vehicles for pak128.britain-ex
« Reply #105 on: September 24, 2020, 08:12:45 AM »
About retirements yes, it's intended to retire a vehicle after its last unit was produced, but not before a successor is available.
The last Desiro was produced in 2014, so any retirement due to a successor after that date is fine.

Offline jamespetts

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Re: Modern rail vehicles for pak128.britain-ex
« Reply #106 on: September 26, 2020, 08:42:55 PM »
Splendid, thank you. Now incorporated. Also, Freakh is correct about retirement dates.

Offline jonbridg

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Re: Modern rail vehicles for pak128.britain-ex
« Reply #107 on: September 30, 2020, 08:39:44 AM »
Great, thanks you both. I have now pushed the new Class 195 and 196/196, which completes the current Civity family in the UK.
These are 160km/h DMUs: the 195 is presented as a budget version with more seats, while the 196/197 has higher comfort and options for first-class and trolley service. Both are available in formations of +2 cars.

Offline jamespetts

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Re: Modern rail vehicles for pak128.britain-ex
« Reply #108 on: October 02, 2020, 07:08:45 PM »
Great, thanks you both. I have now pushed the new Class 195 and 196/196, which completes the current Civity family in the UK.
These are 160km/h DMUs: the 195 is presented as a budget version with more seats, while the 196/197 has higher comfort and options for first-class and trolley service. Both are available in formations of +2 cars.

Excellent, thank you: now incorporated.

Offline Vladki

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Re: Modern rail vehicles for pak128.britain-ex
« Reply #109 on: October 02, 2020, 09:59:03 PM »
Hi, I see some inconsistencies in class 801 Azuma:
composite-motor with 18 1st class seats has 0 running costs. It should have the same as other motorised parts.
And I still do not get the reason why there are three stnadard class motor cars: FrontMS, RearMS, and MiddlePower.
Also the constraints are not consistent, e.g. MiddleTrailer has constraint[prev]=FrontMS, but FrontMS does not have constraint[next]=middleTrailer.
IMHO it would be sufficient to have only one MiddlePower (get rid of FrontMS and RearMS). And just forbid putting two unpowered trailers next to each other, or next to front/rear. If you agree, I can prepare a patch.

Offline wlindley

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Re: Modern rail vehicles for pak128.britain-ex
« Reply #110 on: October 02, 2020, 11:30:44 PM »
Potential oddities in the "Things that could have existed, but did not" would include Boeing-Vertol LRVs from San Francisco operating in Manchester circa 2002. I would also expect that since the Docklands Light Railway was built to German standards, and its original equipment even sold for operation in Essen, that similar crossover designs could have happened then or even in the 1970s like the Duewags that started operation in San Diego, California in 1981.

Offline TheRoadmaster1996

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Re: Modern rail vehicles for pak128.britain-ex
« Reply #111 on: October 03, 2020, 02:49:46 AM »
You know what I want to see: Northern Irish locomotives. Northern Ireland is part of Britain is it not? So it would be fine to have locomotives from Northern Ireland in a Britain pakset.

Offline jamespetts

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Re: Modern rail vehicles for pak128.britain-ex
« Reply #112 on: October 03, 2020, 10:27:40 AM »
You know what I want to see: Northern Irish locomotives. Northern Ireland is part of Britain is it not? So it would be fine to have locomotives from Northern Ireland in a Britain pakset.

The trouble with Irish railways (whether Northern Ireland or the Republic, the distinction between which did not exist until 1922) is that the railway gauge there is greater than it is in Great Britain, so the vehicles of the two systems are not compatible. Since it is impractical to have a large number of different gauges, rail vehicles in the pakset are restricted to those that ran on standard gauge or 2ft narrow gauge.

Offline jonbridg

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Re: Modern rail vehicles for pak128.britain-ex
« Reply #113 on: October 03, 2020, 12:06:02 PM »
composite-motor with 18 1st class seats has 0 running costs. It should have the same as other motorised parts.
---
Also the constraints are not consistent, e.g. MiddleTrailer has constraint[prev]=FrontMS, but FrontMS does not have constraint[next]=middleTrailer.
Aha, thanks for pointing this out. 0 running costs is certainly wrong, as is the MiddleTrailer constraint[prev]=FrontMS. The third vehicle should always be a motor. If you'd be willing to patch them that'd be great, thanks.

And I still do not get the reason why there are three stnadard class motor cars: FrontMS, RearMS, and MiddlePower.
---
IMHO it would be sufficient to have only one MiddlePower (get rid of FrontMS and RearMS). And just forbid putting two unpowered trailers next to each other, or next to front/rear. If you agree, I can prepare a patch.

The system with three standard motor cars was created to limit the number of powered vehicles, similar to other EMUs such as the Pendolino, by prohibiting MiddlePower-MiddlePower constraints. Under the old system doing so would have broken the Trailer-Motor-Motor-Motor-Trailer configuration needed for 5-car trains, so I added an extra standard-class motor vehicle.

The extra standard-motors also support livery differences along the length of the train: both VTEC and Hull Trains (and Avanti, according to concept art) make use of this. This is a symptom of UK railways' fondness for fixed-formation trains - since the number of cars very rarely changes, a train-length design can be applied.
(I would post a screenshot but my Ubuntu partition which has Simutrans fails to start after a recent update, so I can't access it yet)


Offline TheRoadmaster1996

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Re: Modern rail vehicles for pak128.britain-ex
« Reply #114 on: October 03, 2020, 02:47:07 PM »
The trouble with Irish railways (whether Northern Ireland or the Republic, the distinction between which did not exist until 1922) is that the railway gauge there is greater than it is in Great Britain, so the vehicles of the two systems are not compatible. Since it is impractical to have a large number of different gauges, rail vehicles in the pakset are restricted to those that ran on standard gauge or 2ft narrow gauge.
Yeah, I can see why that would be a problem. Irish Gauge wouldn't work in the pakset. Same as if we wanted to do South African locomotives, you would have to create a whole new set of tracks for the Cape Gauge.

Offline jonbridg

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Re: Modern rail vehicles for pak128.britain-ex
« Reply #115 on: October 03, 2020, 03:03:06 PM »
Not to mention the unique and often highly political nature of Irish railway history, too. Much as I'd love to see Irish 3ft gauge in pak128.Britain, it was uncommon on the British mainland despite the cost benefits it could have achieved in rural areas.

Offline TheRoadmaster1996

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Re: Modern rail vehicles for pak128.britain-ex
« Reply #116 on: October 03, 2020, 03:10:54 PM »
Maybe we need a Pak128.Ireland then. Of course we would need to considered the two Ireland's as well.

Offline Freahk

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Re: Modern rail vehicles for pak128.britain-ex
« Reply #117 on: October 03, 2020, 05:27:45 PM »
If someone is willing to spend the huge amount of time needed to create such a pakset, why not.

Offline TheRoadmaster1996

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Re: Modern rail vehicles for pak128.britain-ex
« Reply #118 on: October 03, 2020, 07:30:33 PM »
I'm already making my own pakset. Once I finish my Pak256.America, I might tackle a pak.Ireland. It aught to be easier then doing 256, I won't have to worry about a lot of things I can just focus on houses and locomotives. Besides, I enjoy modeling and creating things, I find it relaxing.

Offline Vladki

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Re: Modern rail vehicles for pak128.britain-ex
« Reply #119 on: October 15, 2020, 02:21:20 PM »
Aha, thanks for pointing this out. 0 running costs is certainly wrong, as is the MiddleTrailer constraint[prev]=FrontMS. The third vehicle should always be a motor. If you'd be willing to patch them that'd be great, thanks.

The system with three standard motor cars was created to limit the number of powered vehicles, similar to other EMUs such as the Pendolino, by prohibiting MiddlePower-MiddlePower constraints. Under the old system doing so would have broken the Trailer-Motor-Motor-Motor-Trailer configuration needed for 5-car trains, so I added an extra standard-class motor vehicle.

The extra standard-motors also support livery differences along the length of the train: both VTEC and Hull Trains (and Avanti, according to concept art) make use of this. This is a symptom of UK railways' fondness for fixed-formation trains - since the number of cars very rarely changes, a train-length design can be applied.
(I would post a screenshot but my Ubuntu partition which has Simutrans fails to start after a recent update, so I can't access it yet)

Regarding liveries - now the 801 (virgin livery) has much darker middle cars, than the front a and rear driving trailers.

Regarding the constraints. If I uderstand it correctly you want to enforce the following:
- minimum configurtion is DT-M-M-M-DT   (DT=driving trailer, M = moror).
- for longer config to prohibit not only two trailers next to each other, but also two motors next to each other, but enforce two motors next to DT ?

Offline jonbridg

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Re: Modern rail vehicles for pak128.britain-ex
« Reply #120 on: October 16, 2020, 07:53:35 PM »
for longer config to prohibit......two motors next to each other, but enforce two motors next to DT ?
Yes. my main concern was players ignoring the trailer cars and forming longer trains without trailers; trains that would probably be tripping circuit breakers left and right if they existed in reality!

One composite motor and and one 1st-class motor are also allowed per train: if both are used, formations up to DT-M-M-M-M-M-DT (a 7-car train with 5 motors) are possible before intermediate trailers are required.
This might seem to penalise players who want standard-class-only trains with very high power, but remember that the 1st-class portion can be declassified. Yes, this is inefficient and slightly more costly - but that is the price to pay for the extra power! Fewer power cars are usually sufficient: a 9-car, 5 motor Class 801 still accelerates better than a 9-car Class 390 Pendolino, despite the latter having greater power.

- minimum configurtion is DT-M-M-M-DT   (DT=driving trailer, M = moror).
It is currently set to a minimum of 2 motors per 4-car train (DT-M-M-DT), allowing it to compete with most contemporary EMUs in Simutrans. 1 motor per 3-car train (DT-M-DT) is technically feasible (there are A-Train family members in Japan with this configuration - most limited to 130km/h, IIRC) but this would make it somewhat underpowered compared to other, slower, 3-car EMUs in Simutrans, so I didn't permit it - but I have no problem with this being changed if people think this could be useful.

Regarding liveries - now the 801 (virgin livery) has much darker middle cars, than the front a and rear driving trailers.
This is unchanged from TheHood's original 801 Blender model: I re-rendered this livery in RGBA rather than RGB but made no changes. It may well be an optical illusion caused by the dark roof of the middle cars: I've checked the lighting setup and colours of the middle and end cars; they're the same.