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Author Topic: Bulk goods fail to load/unload  (Read 469 times)

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Offline freddyhayward

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Bulk goods fail to load/unload
« on: September 16, 2020, 11:45:28 PM »
I don't know whether this report should be under the Pak128.Britain-Ex board. No reproduction case yet. This occurs frequently on bridgewater-brunel, both with convoys full of bulk goods and never unloading them at their destinations, and empty convoys never loading them at stops.

Offline freddyhayward

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Re: Bulk goods fail to load/unload
« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2020, 02:16:57 AM »
this seems to occur at stops where the convoy requires more station tiles than are available. I don't know why I've only observed this with bulk goods.

Offline Ranran

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Re: Bulk goods fail to load/unload
« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2020, 03:49:00 AM »
Does that mean that the length of the convoy exceeds the required length?
In extended it should be "no route". Therefore it cannot stop at the station.
It may be because I fixed an issue that caused no route due to incorrect length calculation.

Do bulk vehicles have a "mix load prohibition"? In the case of that option, processing may have been skipped.

Offline freddyhayward

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Re: Bulk goods fail to load/unload
« Reply #3 on: September 17, 2020, 06:16:22 AM »
Does that mean that the length of the convoy exceeds the required length?
In extended it should be "no route". Therefore it cannot stop at the station.
It may be because I fixed an issue that caused no route due to incorrect length calculation.

Do bulk vehicles have a "mix load prohibition"? In the case of that option, processing may have been skipped.
I did not get a "<convoy> is too long for its next stop" message. The current behaviour for other vehicles is to give that warning but load anyway, probably with an increased loading time. Increasing the stop length for canal barges fixed the problem, and I can't remember what happened to the trains.

Offline Ranran

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Re: Bulk goods fail to load/unload
« Reply #4 on: September 17, 2020, 08:37:29 AM »
Quote
I did not get a "<convoy> is too long for its next stop" message.
Unfortunately there is a trick there. Because convoy has two tile lengths. It is the "true tile length" which is the total length of the vehicle and the "(fake) tile length" (get_tile_length) which is the sum of the maximum 8 margins used in many functions inherited from standard.
I suspect that these differences are causing this issue.
Because it is an extended specification that a convoy that exceeds the length of the tile cannot stop at the station, and there is no processing when the tile is exceeded in the extended. This behavior is different from the standard, but extended may change the orientation of the vehicle, also, the specification of the stop position is different from the standard. so we need to write own code. Neroden, who previously tried to change it, left only a comment. So I don't think convoy which longer than station tile can load / unload correctly even if it stops illegally at the station.
Also, in the bulk goods example, it is due to the inclusion of vehicles with a length of less than 8, and I presume that this is not a problem limited to bulk goods.
(Maybe fake tile length exceeds station tile, but true tile length does not exceed station tile.)

Maybe I made it possible to stop at the station with the true length, but hat_gehalten didn't correct the length determination correctly.

Offline freddyhayward

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Re: Bulk goods fail to load/unload
« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2020, 11:45:10 AM »
It's no reproduction case, but just an illustration of the problem.

Offline Ranran

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Re: Bulk goods fail to load/unload
« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2020, 12:20:37 PM »
I may not understand the description of prissi correctly and this can be a complex issue related to the standard specification. It is recommended to have a margin of 0.5 tiles when incorporating a small wagon into the convoy.
In any case, if this problem is not resolved, the recombination system will have major problem.

Offline freddyhayward

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Re: Bulk goods fail to load/unload
« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2020, 12:32:55 PM »
I may not understand the description of prissi correctly and this can be a complex issue related to the standard specification. It is recommended to have a margin of 0.5 tiles when incorporating a small wagon into the convoy.
In any case, if this problem is not resolved, the recombination system will have major problem.
whatever the specification, it should never prevent the entire train from loading. and in this case, the train is 4 tiles long, the station is 5 tiles long.

Offline Ranran

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Re: Bulk goods fail to load/unload
« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2020, 01:06:15 PM »
whatever the specification, it should never prevent the entire train from loading. and in this case, the train is 4 tiles long, the station is 5 tiles long.
The original bug was that the train would stuck (got no route) when such convoy reversed.
I just suspected that it might not load as a result of removing such a stuck, but I'm not sure if it's actually the cause.
If length doesn't matter, it's probably another matter.

For example, even if there is a cargo attribute, if the capacity is 0, the cargo will not be loaded. Similarly, if the cargo stored at the station exceeds the capacity, it will not be loaded. I know the coverage constraint of 3 tiles for cargo may not actually be 3 tiles. Recently, just_in_time has changed. Consider these possibilities.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2020, 04:06:55 PM by Ranran »

Offline freddyhayward

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Re: Bulk goods fail to load/unload
« Reply #9 on: September 21, 2020, 11:15:32 AM »
even if there is a cargo attribute, if the capacity is 0, the cargo will not be loaded
The capacity is 10 for each wagon, so this should not matter.

if the cargo stored at the station exceeds the capacity, it will not be loaded.
That doesn't make sense at all, since pack horses with a capacity of 1 can easily load cargo from amounts far greater.

I know the coverage constraint of 3 tiles for cargo may not actually be 3 tiles
I'm not sure what this means. What coverage constraint?

Recently, just_in_time has changed
That shouldn't matter at all.

Sorry to sound so angry :(

Offline Freahk

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Re: Bulk goods fail to load/unload
« Reply #10 on: September 21, 2020, 12:13:03 PM »
Well the point freddy made (at least I think he did, correct me if I'm wrong) is that goods are generated and routed, but then pile up at the cargo stations and won't load onto the car that should transport these.
The other way round, some cargoes were loaded on a train but the whole train won't unload these at their next transfer.

Ranran, the points you have made seem to assume that cargo is not generated at all, i.e. it is never transfered from an industry to the cargo station.
That's not the issue Freddy raised here.

Offline Ranran

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Re: Bulk goods fail to load/unload
« Reply #11 on: September 21, 2020, 12:52:28 PM »
I think this is a routing (choice of which line the cargo will use) issue.  I have experienced this anomaly on birdgewaterserver for quite some time and reported it in another thread.
I sent an extra lineless convoy to carry a large pile of mail, but it never loaded the mail.
I thought it strange, but on another occasion I checked the reverse route button and found it to load.
Oddly enough, schedule reverses around there, but there is a decision as to whether it is reverse or not.
Cargo may be waiting for a reverse route that does not arrive endlessly.


Quote
The capacity is 10 for each wagon, so this should not matter.
What I wanted to say is that either station is congested or has zero capacity (but has cargo attributes) and cannot accept cargo.
I made a freight station with only goods siding, but it is not judged to be connected even if it is connected.
The player is fooled by the display. The factory never use that station.

Quote
I'm not sure what this means. What coverage constraint?
The information on whether the factory and the station are connected is ambiguous (diagonally) and it is uncertain whether the 3 tiles ahead are connected.
Sometimes it looks like it's fooling the player.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2020, 01:22:36 PM by Ranran »

Offline freddyhayward

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Re: Bulk goods fail to load/unload
« Reply #12 on: September 21, 2020, 01:29:36 PM »
What I wanted to say is that either station is congested or has zero capacity (but has cargo attributes) and cannot accept cargo.
well the station is certainly congested, because it had accumulated thousands of tons of coal that wouldn't be loaded.

The information on whether the factory and the station are connected is ambiguous (diagonally) and it is uncertain whether the 3 tiles ahead are connected.
Wouldn't it be connected given that goods were generated?

Cargo may be waiting for a reverse route that does not arrive endlessly.
This might be a possibility. I wonder if the intended route could be displayed in GUI? That would be useful information for players even when there are no errors - for example, to see whether passengers are waiting for an express train.

Offline jamespetts

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Re: Bulk goods fail to load/unload
« Reply #13 on: September 26, 2020, 11:00:00 PM »
Thank you for your report. If you are able to upload a reproduction case, that would be most helpful.

Ranran - can you remind me of the thread in which you reported what you believe to be a related issue relating to convoy choice for freight loading?

Offline Ranran

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Re: Bulk goods fail to load/unload
« Reply #14 on: September 27, 2020, 05:11:47 AM »
Ranran - can you remind me of the thread in which you reported what you believe to be a related issue relating to convoy choice for freight loading?
https://forum.simutrans.com/index.php/topic,20116.0.html

I may have posted something about siding goods in the factory GUI thread.