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Author Topic: Train signals  (Read 1060 times)

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Offline DORpope

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Train signals
« on: November 29, 2020, 04:16:44 PM »
Hello Friends,
I have been working on this for half a day and I just get crazy. I know, there are hundreds of topics about that, but I just don't get it. Its about train signals.
I do have three four cities which I connect to each other. The cities are called D, B, W and A.
D, B, W are connected in a triangle by three lines, pairwise. D and A are also connected. Every line only has one train, except for D-W, which has two trains.

I am trying to figure out how to built that, but independent from what I do, it always gets blocked.
So it looks like that: [attachment]

Everything is one-tracked except some parts where they have the chance to pass by. There, I used two basic signals, one in each of the two tracks like it is shown in the manual.
But they always block anyway. At any sections, everywhere. After that happened, I just removed all connections between the different lines such that everyone is independent, having its own platform at every train station.
Still, trains which are alone on their line, not sharing anything get blocked very often. Its difficult to describe.
In fact, I used only basic signals. What else should I do to solve that?

And how do I need to design parts where two (three) lines merge into each other?

Thanks very much for anybody trying to help me.
Lukas

Key: Station "Z" are any sorts of stations in the middle, usually with two platforms. Those filled squares are depots.

Offline Andarix

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Re: Train signals
« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2020, 05:00:43 PM »
The pictures on these pages may help you. The text is in German.

tutorial Multi-train
Railway Signals


Offline DORpope

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Re: Train signals
« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2020, 06:23:35 PM »
Hey Andarix,
Thank you for your answer.
Actually, those two links are the reason why I am here.
I am just to stupid to understand what they want to say me. And actually, they don't really answer my question about merging two lines into each other.



I basically tried every sort of signal.
The normal one at two-track-passing place.
The longblockone at the same place. Nothing works for me, even though the manual says exactly that.

And what makes me crazy is that it even not works in isolated tracks with only one train. How can those be blocked??
« Last Edit: November 30, 2020, 04:23:58 AM by Isaac Eiland-Hall »

Offline Andarix

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Re: Train signals
« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2020, 06:38:47 PM »
you can download the save game from here

https://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=4022.0

You can start and view it with the current version of Simutrans and pak64.german.

Help is difficult without a save game.

Offline DORpope

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Re: Train signals
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2020, 07:09:24 PM »
Thank you for that cool map!
Would it maybe be possible to upload my map as well and someone can have a look for what is weird there? (I play German 128)
I do agree that it is impossible to help me without enough information about it. (thats why I have drawn that useless card)

The map in the link is quite messy, but I will also have a look for that there.

Offline Andarix

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Re: Train signals
« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2020, 07:35:39 PM »
...
Would it maybe be possible to upload my map as well and someone can have a look for what is weird there? (I play German 128)
...

https://forum.simutrans.com/index.php/topic,3018.0.html

Offline DORpope

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Re: Train signals
« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2020, 07:47:26 PM »
Thank you so much for your help!
Such a nice idea with that upload website.
I uploaded the file "Spiel1_Stand6.sve".
(29. Nov 2020 20:42)
I don't know if direct links work, but I guess, that should be the download link:
https://simutrans-germany.com/files/upload/Spiel1_Stand6.sve

I use the German 128 package.

The train system which I have in my map is quite simple. There are five very big cities on the map (don't judge me by those weird cities), and there are links between those cities.
The newest link is between "Dabendorf" and "Klinger", which only has one track and one train on it. It gets blocked anyway. But in that track, I don't have double-track-sections.

I am therefore more interested in why the other links between "Dabendorf" and the bigger cities don't work.

Many thanks!
Lukas

Offline Lieven

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Re: Train signals
« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2020, 09:08:40 PM »
Hey

Do you use some addons ?

When I want to load your savegame in pak128 German, my Simutrans Crashes "Too many intercity roads" said it

EDIT : I don't think that tis is caused by any addon, which version of Simutrans do you have ?
« Last Edit: November 30, 2020, 12:13:00 AM by Lieven »

Offline DORpope

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Re: Train signals
« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2020, 09:34:22 PM »
Hey Lieven,
Thank you for your answer.

I play with Ubuntu, so my version is a bit different from others.
I installed it that way:

deb https://simutrans-germany.com/simutrans/linux-package/deb/debian lenny contrib
sudo apt update
sudo apt install simutrans-uni-sdl2
sudo apt install libsdl2-mixer-2.0-0
sudo apt install simutrans-uni-pak128.german

Offline Lieven

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Re: Train signals
« Reply #9 on: November 30, 2020, 12:12:29 AM »
I'll take out my ubuntu laptop tomorrow, so I probably will get a look to your map, and gets you back my opinion ;)

Offline prissi

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Re: Train signals
« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2020, 04:46:58 AM »
There are no stucked convois on this map?

Offline makie

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Re: Train signals
« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2020, 07:24:32 AM »
The first problem i saw:

The train can't get to the upper platform. You should put the stop to the lower platform.
-------------------------------------
Don't use long block signals for passing place. Use the normal signals.

---------------------------------------
Line Dabendorf <> Wellington
If you drive 2 train on a single rail you need passing place between each station, else it got a little tricky.
 Between Hirschhorn and  Darfield the is missing a passing place.
The platform an Wellington Central is wrong, the trains canĀ“t get there.
---------------------------------------------------------

There is the possibility to build a passing place together with a station,
but this works only if all trains take a stop in this station!
« Last Edit: November 30, 2020, 08:03:41 AM by makie »

Offline DORpope

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Re: Train signals
« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2020, 07:34:28 AM »
Thats interesting. So it is relevant where I put that stop?
I always thought that they choose the platform they like?

@prissi
There are several trains stuck on the map. Some if them aren't officially stuck, but waiting for a free block for ever, while some others are officially stuck.

@All: I want to thank everybody who had a look for my map or answered to that topic until now, thats such a great community. :)

Edit: but still, what about the train from Wellington to Bergen?
That one confuses me the most. It has its own track, isolated from others, there is only one train and the station platforms are correct.
Its still getting stuck

Offline makie

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Re: Train signals
« Reply #13 on: November 30, 2020, 08:11:03 AM »
Thats interesting. So it is relevant where I put that stop?
I always thought that they choose the platform they like?
The train try to get  to the platform where you set the stop. The only exception is the choose signal: when the train pass the signal he can select a alternative platform if the plan platform is  occupied.

Offline DORpope

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Re: Train signals
« Reply #14 on: November 30, 2020, 08:17:15 AM »
Thanks you very much!.

So, if I put all posts together, the solution should be:
- Change the stops to the correct platform
- Make stop sections between each pair of consecutive stations, but using the normal signal
- When I have stations with two platforms, I use choose signals like in the third photo of makie

But in theory, I only need normal signals and choose signals?

Is that correct?

One more question: I am always a bit confused about that timetable function for lines.
If I have five stations, A, B, C and D and the timetable should be: A -> B -> C -> D -> C -> B -> A
Should I then have B -> C -> D -> C -> B -> A in the timetable at the end, like in my game?
Always when I put a sequence of stations, the first one disappears in the end. Is that correct?
Lukas

Thank you so much!

Offline DORpope

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Re: Train signals
« Reply #15 on: November 30, 2020, 08:30:13 AM »
I did upload a new version of it, where I was following your hints, replaced those signals and put some choosing signals.

https://simutrans-germany.com/files/upload/Spiel1_Stand6b.sve

Still, there are two trains which are totally blocked for some reason.
Dab-Bred 1 and Dab-Berg 1 are blocked. I don't really know why. Especially the first one has an totally empty section in front of it.

Regards
Lukas

Offline makie

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Re: Train signals
« Reply #16 on: November 30, 2020, 08:42:38 AM »
Edit: but still, what about the train from Wellington to Bergen?
That one confuses me the most. It has its own track, isolated from others, there is only one train and the station platforms are correct.
Its still getting stuck
The choose signal works as a normal signal too. It blocks driving in the wrong direction.

Oh i do a mistake above. The choose signal is little bit more tricky.
I add green a way out of the station with normal signals.


Offline Lieven

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Re: Train signals
« Reply #17 on: November 30, 2020, 10:40:59 AM »
A, B, C and D the timetable should be: A -> B -> C -> D -> C -> B -> A
Should I then have B -> C -> D -> C -> B -> A in the timetable at the end, like in my game?

The timetable works as a loop, the first stop will be the last stop too, So, If you set as A>B>C>D>C>B>A, D>C>B>A>B>C, or C>B>A>B>C>D, It will be the same result, just take care when you set the last stop in the same station than the first stop, if you don't selected the same quai, the convoy would try to goes on the second quai that you selected, and can causes problems ;)

Offline Vladki

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Re: Train signals
« Reply #18 on: November 30, 2020, 09:18:31 PM »
I have not looked at the map, but:
1. If you have only one train on the track, you do not need any signals
2. If you have only two trains on the line, you still do not need any signals. Just make all stations (except for terminals) to be passing loops. Carefully schedule trains to use different platforms for each direction. Terminals can be single platform. This will work nicely without any signals. You can add up to N+1 trains to a line with N passing loops.


In simutrans vehicles try to get to the exact spot you defined in schedule - this is one of the big differences to openttd.

Offline prissi

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Re: Train signals
« Reply #19 on: December 01, 2020, 01:59:47 AM »
The two trains without signal does not work any more in recent versions, since waypoints does no longer act as signals. With two trains you need one passing loop with two signals.

Unlike OpenTDD, stations are expensive. So in Simutrans it makes much more sense to have a double line ending in just a double station, unless there are many different liens waiting there for full load.

Offline makie

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Re: Train signals
« Reply #20 on: December 01, 2020, 12:16:05 PM »
I build a example map for using signals: https://pak128-german.de/Signale.sve
Simutrans 122.0 Pak128.german VS 2.0

1. A one track with several stops for one train. Here are no more allowed, or you get a deadlock.
2. A one track with several stops for 3 trains and passing loops. Three Trains and no more, or a deadlock can happen.
3. A one track with several stops for 9 trains without a signal. Using stations with two platforms.
3. Using stacking end station with chose signals and long block signals to prevent deadlock on the one track with several stops. 13 trains.
4. A simple two track line with several stops for 14 or more trains.

Use special signals only if you really need it.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2020, 04:13:29 PM by makie »

Offline DORpope

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Re: Train signals
« Reply #21 on: December 01, 2020, 03:05:49 PM »
This map is magnificent.
Thank you so much!
Thats the sort of manual I was searching for a long time.

Its much better understandable then those guides on the Simutrans Wiki pages.

I will try to implement that. I still don't have any idea why those old maps block on my PC, but I will just try to implement the new ones.

So, I is it right that you only used normal signals, long block signals and choose signals, nothing than those three?

Regards,
Lukas:

PS: Thanks to everybody who answered me

Edit: one more question: How long does a long block signal last?
« Last Edit: December 01, 2020, 03:26:25 PM by DORpope »

Offline makie

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Re: Train signals
« Reply #22 on: December 01, 2020, 04:06:08 PM »
Edit: one more question: How long does a long block signal last?
Until the next real signal.

When the way to the circled waiting area is free, the long block signal turns green.
Red the long block signal on the left.
Green the long block signal on the right.
Only one vehicle allowed to drive in the single-track area.

Offline Vladki

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Re: Train signals
« Reply #23 on: December 01, 2020, 04:16:56 PM »
The two trains without signal does not work any more in recent versions, since waypoints does no longer act as signals. With two trains you need one passing loop with two signals.
But stations still do act as signals, don't they? I was suggesting to make all passing loops to be stations.

Offline Vladki

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Re: Train signals
« Reply #24 on: December 01, 2020, 04:26:39 PM »
BTW, here is a signal-demo save for pak128.CS, with Czech explanations of signals. Just press shift-B to see the reservations, and learn by example.

http://list.extended.simutrans.org/~simutrans/pak128.CS/signal-demo-cs.sve
pakset here: http://list.extended.simutrans.org/~simutrans/pak128.CS.zip
Using simutrans-nightly recommended

Offline Ters

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Re: Train signals
« Reply #25 on: December 01, 2020, 06:27:51 PM »
I would advice against using long-block signals and pre-signals until one knows the regular signals thoroughly. Diving into them all at the same time will just risk being too much. Those two signal types are for very special cases that usually can be worked around with a bit more tracks and regular signals. The same could be said for chose signals, but they are much more useful, in my opinion. However, they are not as powerful as new players often seem to believe.

Offline prissi

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Re: Train signals
« Reply #26 on: December 02, 2020, 12:13:30 AM »
A station acts like a signal, since the train must stop there and can only drive on if it can reserve the route to the next signal/stop. However, waypoints are (on most case, i.e. unless you need to go back from that point) just intermediate points passed through at search time.

Offline m.vanderwulp

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Re: Train signals
« Reply #27 on: December 26, 2020, 01:05:44 PM »
One tip I see not mentioned here, is to use the "b" key to show track reservations: this is very good to learn how the signals work.

Offline ChristineR

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Re: Train signals
« Reply #28 on: December 26, 2020, 09:14:39 PM »
Thank you for the example map.. It saved my brain from total meltdown.