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Author Topic: [Idea] HP(Horsepower)/PS(Pferdestärke) unit display option  (Read 681 times)

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Offline Ranran

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[Idea] HP(Horsepower)/PS(Pferdestärke) unit display option
« on: February 13, 2021, 02:19:11 AM »
Currently, the unit of power is unified in kW. However, this unit may not be common for certain vehicle types.
It is common to use horsepower, that is, the unit of PS, except for electric motors. Perhaps geeks want to check in PS to compare the output unit of automobile, steam locomotives and DMUs, right?
I find it strange that the horse's output is displayed in kW. (´・ω・`)

Add a PS display option to simuconf.tab for them for electrically non-powered vehicles.
For power types other than electric, it is ideal to display PS in front and put kW in parentheses.
I don't think it will cause any problems as only those who want this will use the option. It just changes the GUI display.
This implementation is very easy. If this idea is taken favorably, I will work on its implementation.

An option to make this better is to add diesel electric to the fuel type for modern DMUs.
They generate electricity with diesel and drive the motor. Some vehicles currently classified as diesel will need to be changed. In general, the electric diesel cars tends to be more fuel efficient and less expensive to maintain, and players may be able to see that fact by classification or display unit rather than numerically.

I would appreciate it if you could give your opinion on this.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2021, 05:59:48 PM by Ranran »

Offline jamespetts

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Re: [Idea] PS unit display option
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2021, 11:02:06 AM »
There are two separate things here: units and traction types.

Units

Convertible units (i.e., a GUI display option to show some units in a converted type, such as showing kW in HP instead) is certainly a good thing to have. It was actually discussed, albeit in the context of speed, about 10-11 years ago, but the person working on the idea gave up after a while. Of course, the metric units should be the default.

Diesel-electric traction type

This is a more complex issue. What this entails is re-conceptualising traction types as not only the type of the generator of kinetic energy in the vehicle, but also its transmission type. If there were subtypes for diesel electric, there would also need to be subtypes for diesel mechanical and diesel hydraulic. Likewise, road vehicles would also need subtypes for manual, mechanical automatic and hydraulic transmissions, and aircraft would need to differentiate between turboprops and jets (we currently distinguish only between turbines and piston engines).

I do not think that this level of granularity is likely ultimately to be helpful as it seems unlikely on the face of it that there are any gameplay mechanics that would benefit from this, but it would add a large amount of extra pakset work and complexity for players.

Offline Vladki

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Re: [Idea] PS unit display option
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2021, 11:28:54 AM »
Units: I'm against showing both metric and imperial units at the same time. It will eat too much space. Just as you, Ranran, were opposed to showing acceleration in both m/s/s and km/h/s. This is exactly the same situation.
I'm ok with a global switch between metric/imperial that will affect all displayed values (or even a more granular approach).

Traction (efficiency): i think the traction type should be used only to force players to build appropriate depots. So the distinction between diesel-electric or diesel-hydraulic is IMHO not important. But if enough data is available, we can change the default gear (0.5 for diesels) to distinguish these: let's say 0.5 for diesel-hydraulic, and 0.6 for diesel-electric. Or at the same time change the formulas in the balancing sheet providing for different maintenance costs and runningcost/power ratio.   Although the same would apply to electric engines using DC motors vs. AC asynchronous motors. (and different power controllers: resistors, tyristors, ...)

Offline Ranran

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Re: [Idea] PS unit display option
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2021, 01:51:56 PM »
First of all, I must admit that I was not aware that the fact that kW has hardly penetrated into representing specifications other than electric vehicles is unique to Japan. In most cases, PS(Pferdestärke) is used for engine specifications in Japan. PS is the metric system, not the imperial system. I didn't even know the fact that the use of kW is recommended because PS is the norm. Engines are about to replace motors sooner than their use pervades the Japanese people. (´・ω・`)

I suggested displaying both at the same time as a compromise. Because, as I explained, I misunderstood that the horsepower display was the unit that should be displayed on engine cars. However, originally, only one should be displayed, and in this respect, my goal has not changed.


Quote
Units: I'm against showing both metric and imperial units at the same time. It will eat too much space.

It seems that simultaneous display was a bad idea. The spec table I'm currently trying to add may not have enough space to display it at the same time.

Quote
Just as you, Ranran, were opposed to showing acceleration in both m/s/s and km/h/s. This is exactly the same situation.
I objected to displaying two similar units at the same time, but rather I recommended adding an "option" to switch the display units if adding it at that time. If it is an option, it will not adversely affect those who do not want it. And you never did it. So you tried to oppress some people. The reason I objected is that you shouldn't do that. I just opposed it because it was clearly a problem that could be avoided.

What I'm trying to add this time is to provide such a switching option. For example, in the old days, you can feel the world of the time by using the horsepower display other than electric cars.
It's an option so you can change it when you want to.
The reason this is easier than the imperial unit is that it is simply multiplied by a constant. Imperial units are complex with feet, yards, miles, and strange variations.
So, it is easy to separate the options into multiple options to distinguish between HP(Used in England) and PS(Used in Germany and Japan.).

And another difference is that this does not apply to all fuel types. The electric vehicle always uses kW.

However, as I have already explained, I have misunderstood the fact that the use of watts is widespread outside the world, so I think it is unlikely that this idea will be accepted. (´・ω・`)


EIDT:
Quote
Diesel-electric traction type

This is a more complex issue. What this entails is re-conceptualising traction types as not only the type of the generator of kinetic energy in the vehicle, but also its transmission type. If there were subtypes for diesel electric, there would also need to be subtypes for diesel mechanical and diesel hydraulic. Likewise, road vehicles would also need subtypes for manual, mechanical automatic and hydraulic transmissions, and aircraft would need to differentiate between turboprops and jets (we currently distinguish only between turbines and piston engines).

I do not think that this level of granularity is likely ultimately to be helpful as it seems unlikely on the face of it that there are any gameplay mechanics that would benefit from this, but it would add a large amount of extra pakset work and complexity for players.
I proposed the Diesel-electric traction type here for the simple reason that I wanted to distinguish between DMUs that should display kW even with the proposed option enabled.
Most newer vehicles these days are of that type, but older ones are not, and they can be mixed.


However, in the future, it may be possible to add real-world features here.


- 1. Diesel-electric changes or reduces the type of smoke.
- 2. Acceleration chart has been implemented, but as I have explained several times before, this chart now draws a chart like electric motor for any fuel type.
In other words, the acceleration characteristics do not correctly simulate the difference in fuel type. Perhaps many people know that steam locomotives and diesel cars do not accelerate very well at high speeds. Because it draws a F-V graph that is different from the current chart. It loses power rapidly as it speeds up. But motor is not. That's why electric trains are good at accelerating. I don't know what kind of calculation is used to realize the current motor acceleration chart. Coded by Bernd Gabriel, it's a black box for me. But at least it draws graphs like moter's characteristics well. I think it would be great if curves like steam locomotives and diesel engines could be distinguished by different power types.
 
Mechanical transmission is known for its high power transmission efficiency and was used in old Railcars. I'm not sure if that distinction is inadequate due to differences in gear settings.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2021, 05:48:00 PM by Ranran »

Offline Vladki

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Re: [Idea] PS unit display option
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2021, 02:18:02 PM »
It would be nice to have the choice to change displayed units. But it should be made generic (and probably even for standard). So that players could choose among several useful units, not only metric/imperial. For example speed: not only the obvious km/h and mph, but someone may prefer knots for ships and planes, or even the scientific m/s ?. So this would require a framework that would keep track of "type of value (speed, power, distance, ...)", preferred unit, waytype (use different units for land and sea transport) and maybe even engine type (steam and diesel in HP/PS, electric in kW ?).  If such a framework is in place then we can add it to all dialogs where physical units are shown, and have a button to change them.

But without this framework in place, it does not make sense to allow players to choose the unit ad-hoc just for values where we cannot agree on what is the most useful unit (e.g. acceleration or engine power).

Offline Freahk

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Re: [Idea] HP(Horsepower)/PS(Pferdestärke) unit display option
« Reply #5 on: April 10, 2021, 02:05:20 PM »
This shouldn't be too diffficult as it "only" affects the display of data, any internal calculations can remain, so it's all about determining all occourences of units being displayed as well as writing a unit conversion system, which is a rather simple task.

Is there still a demand for this?
I could do the backend work, then someone else can pick this up and put it into the GUI.

Offline prissi

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Re: [Idea] HP(Horsepower)/PS(Pferdestärke) unit display option
« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2021, 11:51:47 AM »
The main problem is that it would affect many translations string. Otherwise it would have been done years ago.

Offline TheRoadmaster1996

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Re: [Idea] HP(Horsepower)/PS(Pferdestärke) unit display option
« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2021, 09:25:02 PM »
Here in the States, there were attempts to convert to the metric system, states like I think Arizona or New Mexico started to display speed and other signs along the interstate in both Imperial and the Metric system but the idea was ultimately scraped. Today, you can still find these signs dotted around the southwest. In cars, the speedometer reads both mph and kph and millage is in both mi and km.