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Author Topic: Simutrans nightly vehicles takes longer to load items?  (Read 910 times)

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Offline Sandbox Player

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Simutrans nightly vehicles takes longer to load items?
« on: July 21, 2021, 06:28:21 AM »
What is the purpose of increasing the waiting time at stations in Simutrans nightly? I don't seem to understand.

Offline prissi

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Re: Simutrans nightly vehicles takes longer to load items?
« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2021, 01:16:56 PM »
The loading is now no longer instantaneously but takes some time, depending on the amount to load or unload. This affects however mostly ships and planes, like in real life (at least in pak64). However many paks do not support this yet, so one would need a nightly pak set as well. With the release pak sets, the loading times should be identical to before.

Offline makie

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Re: Simutrans nightly vehicles takes longer to load items?
« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2021, 05:46:36 PM »
With the release pak sets, the loading times should be identical to before
Quote
no longer instantaneously
no, we have not set any "loading_time" but loading and unloading take time now. Is no longer instantaneously.
Default is not 0 i think.

https://www.simutrans-forum.de/mybb/showthread.php?tid=9462

Offline prissi

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Re: Simutrans nightly vehicles takes longer to load items?
« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2021, 01:06:05 AM »
Default is 2000 ms since the dawn of simutrans.

Offline Sandbox Player

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Re: Simutrans nightly vehicles takes longer to load items?
« Reply #4 on: July 22, 2021, 02:48:42 AM »
Well that sounds realistic sometimes though, but with high-capacity metro systems, having those trains to wait for that long at every individual stop will kind of decrease its efficiency and clog up the traffic.

Offline prissi

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Re: Simutrans nightly vehicles takes longer to load items?
« Reply #5 on: July 22, 2021, 03:02:03 AM »
The only thing that changes is that this time is now also scaled with month length. In default settings, it will be now 8s for loading, sinnce the multiplier is times 4 for bits_per_month=20. But you can set the loading time in the vehicle definition to shorter values.

Offline makie

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Re: Simutrans nightly vehicles takes longer to load items?
« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2021, 05:22:52 AM »
The only thing that changes is that this time is now also scaled with month length. In default settings, it will be now 8s for loading, sinnce the multiplier is times 4 for bits_per_month=20.
yes i think so
And may be unload and load each. Before only loading? I remember unload at once.

Offline Leartin

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Re: Simutrans nightly vehicles takes longer to load items?
« Reply #7 on: July 22, 2021, 09:49:47 AM »
The only thing that changes is that this time is now also scaled with month length.
Is that a good idea? I was under the impression that scales regarding month length were done to keep gameplay identical no matter the month setting, since if you look at it it per minute of play, all values are the same no matter the month setting. If loading time is month-length-dependent, that gets skewed, as in the same minute of play the vehicles spend more or less time in stations. It might go as far as having to add additional convois to a route to keep the same throughput when using longer months.
Given that the time (in minutes) a vehicle needs to get from A to B is independent of month length, it seems like the time the vehicle stays at A and B should be independent as well. (It will already spend twice as much time in stations with twice the month length simply because it reaches twice as many stations/it's stations twice as often.)

Offline makie

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Re: Simutrans nightly vehicles takes longer to load items?
« Reply #8 on: July 22, 2021, 12:48:17 PM »
Problem is the fixed monthly cost.
If the month is longer the vehicle can transport more and so the fixed cost need to be increased even.
If the waiting-time stay the same, the waiting is less part of the transportation time. 

I think: waiting time have to be scaled with month length.
Else bits_per_month influence the weight of the monthly fixed cost
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Edit: I am not sure  about this. Change bits_per_month does not change speed of a vehicle.
But change bits_per_month should not change balancing of the vehicle.

Maybe Leartin is right
« Last Edit: July 22, 2021, 01:03:06 PM by makie »

Offline Freahk

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Re: Simutrans nightly vehicles takes longer to load items?
« Reply #9 on: July 22, 2021, 01:17:56 PM »

Else bits_per_month influence the weight of the monthly fixed cost
I'd state the exact other way round: Scaling waiting times will influence the ratio of the monthly fixed costs!

Let's take a fictional, very simple example:
We have a fictional vehicle that waits for exactly a one month in a bpm=18 setting.
Let's increase bpm to bpm=22 and scale the waiting time:
It will still wait a whole month but that waiting time will cost much more!

Let's have a look at an example schedule:
A: 1 minute loading
A->B 8 minutes journey time
B: 1 minute loading
In a fictional simuworld at 10 Minutes per month this makes exactly one cycle per month.

Let's increase month length by a factor of 8:
There will be exactly 8 cycles per month
That means 8 times the total waiting time and 8 times the total journey time (and distance)
That means 8 times the revenues (given constant demand) and 8 times the costs.
Seems correct to me.

Offline prissi

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Re: Simutrans nightly vehicles takes longer to load items?
« Reply #10 on: July 22, 2021, 02:58:39 PM »
I think this is correct in terms of revenue. This somehow contradicts game time, since the convoi will be faster laoding the longer the month. Since Simutrans is foremost economic, the scaling of the loading time seems indeed wrong. Change it to be independent in r9967

Offline Leartin

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Re: Simutrans nightly vehicles takes longer to load items?
« Reply #11 on: July 22, 2021, 03:23:00 PM »
I think this is correct in terms of revenue. This somehow contradicts game time, since the convoi will be faster laoding the longer the month.
True, but the same contradiction happens with trains which also move faster (in tiles per month) the longer the month. Thats the point of the setting, else you could just slow down the entire game.

Offline makie

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Re: Simutrans nightly vehicles takes longer to load items?
« Reply #12 on: July 22, 2021, 05:01:21 PM »
R9967 does not unload any more, money is given but the train is no empty
 ::(

Offline prissi

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Re: Simutrans nightly vehicles takes longer to load items?
« Reply #13 on: July 24, 2021, 01:56:51 AM »
Sorry, accidently deleted something oreventing rounding to zero. Fixed in r9969

Offline makie

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Re: Simutrans nightly vehicles takes longer to load items?
« Reply #14 on: July 25, 2021, 06:09:16 AM »
is fixed
@admin move to solved