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Refunds (was: Massive embezzlement(?))

Started by zook2, August 08, 2021, 11:37:55 PM

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zook2

(BB Server game) In November '87, one of my main cash-cows, the brig (4714) Northern Star, was docking in Norburn, full of good things. As I had only 6,000 left in the bank, I was eagerly awaiting the cash coming in. I had the ship's window and the financial window open. The revenue (floating above the convoy on the main game window) showed 4,700 and the profit in the ship's window was correctly updated. But that's all. Neither my cash (number at the bottom of the screen) nor the revenue graph in the financial window reflected the income. I watched two other ships dock in other ports and everything was fine, though.

zook2

(BB Server game) In November '87 my line "# Norburn Fruit & Cider" shows a loss of 3,270 in the line management window, while the individual convoys show the expected small profits. In fact, the line graph shows huge, perpetual losses that seem to come out of nowhere - revenue, running costs etc. are normal. One of the stops on that line belongs to another company, if that should matter.

zook2

Turns out I'm paying vast sums on refunds, something I have never encountered before. It could be due to either my port, or that other player's stop, where large amounts of goods from is network had accumulated, completely unnoticed, waiting to go to my port.

I found this problem quite by accident. It would be great if some warning were generated if refunds are being paid.

zook2

I thought Refunds would be listed in the Financial Window under "Other", but they don't. I mean no item in "Other" corresponds to the amount of refunds I pay.

Ranran

If refund is occurring, you can see the third rating - "give up waiting", at its departing station. You can see the pink color at the evaluation color bar.
In my opinion, displaying warnings is annoying. For example, if you have a vehicle that has been stuck for a long time, it can happen and you will get a duplicate warning. Also, there may be multiple departure stations and many warnings may be displayed.

Confirmation of the occurrence of give up waiting may be improved in the future.

Matthew

Quote from: Ranran on August 09, 2021, 08:01:52 AM
If refund is occurring, you can see the third rating - "give up waiting", at its departing station. You can see the pink color at the evaluation color bar.

I studied this. I looked at Bridgewater-Brunel > Midland & Zookian Charity Transport > Finerminster - Norburn line.

8 months ago, this line had refunds of 3,000¢:



So, we should expect to see many passengers gave up waiting 8 months ago. But we don't. 8 months ago, the stop with the highest "gave up waiting" number was this::



Since the route is ~300km, and since there were ~8 gave up waiting at other stops, I still think that makes the refund in the order of 150¢ per passenger/good. That seems a lot. Maybe Zook has deleted some stops which had a lot of people waiting, but that would surprise me.

I noticed that all the stops are one-tile 'platforms' (a single dock) and that the line uses brigs, which IIRC required more than two tiles until yesterday's changes. Is it possible that the passengers/goods were never reaching a stop where they could be delivered and a refund was given for that reason?!? Or that passengers were never able to get on to the brig at certain stops?
(Signature being tested) If you enjoy playing Simutrans, then you might also enjoy watching Japan Railway Journal
Available in English and simplified Chinese
如果您喜欢玩Simutrans的话,那么说不定就想看《日本铁路之旅》(英语也有简体中文字幕)。

zook2

Thanks for having a look. I never saw anything about ships requiring more than one tile, except on canals. I didn't ever delete stops on that route, or noticed anybody left on board or on the docks, except of course when the ship was full.

Ranran

#7
Quote from: Matthew on August 09, 2021, 03:02:36 PMSince the route is ~300km, and since there were ~8 gave up waiting at other stops, I still think that makes the refund in the order of 150¢ per passenger/good.
No, as I understand, passengers walk back 300km after giving up waiting, so gave up waiting is counted when walking/swimming back 300km and they reach the origin stop.
There is a big lag between when passengers appear to evaporate at the station and when "gave up waiting" is counted.

EDIT2:
Secondly, the gave up waiting is marked at the station where the passengers started their journey, not at the station where they were kept waiting.
For example, Japanese people are always very angry that the train is delayed by one minute, but even if they got angry and return back because US train don't come on time, "gave up waiting" will be counted at the Japanese station where he started his trip. (´・ω・`)

Sirius

#8
Quote from: Ranran on August 09, 2021, 06:47:25 PMFor example, Japanese people are always very angry that the train is delayed by one minute
Japanese people should never visit Germany.
Thank you for traveling with Deutsche Bahn! (Delay today 130 minutes)

I suspect we might need to rethink the "gave up waiting" and refund system so it's understandable to "normal" players, not only those knowing the code around it.
Two rather simple implovements should be to account the "gave up waiting" at the step where passengers actually gave up and to show refunds in the finance window.

Ronin1996

No taxation with out representation!

jamespetts

Can I check whether this is due to the refunds issue to which you referred in your other post?
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zook2


jamespetts

I have now merged the two topics and will move them to the gameplay discussion forum, as this is not a bug report.
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