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Underground bus stops

Started by Matthew, May 18, 2022, 03:47:35 PM

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Ranran(Hibernating)

#35
Quote from: Octavius on May 29, 2022, 10:59:54 PMI'm not sure. For bus stations, both open air and in basements, two layouts appear common. Most around here have 3–15 parallel platforms for one bus each, but I know a few that have a platform for about 4 buses after another and a passing lane, or two such long platforms with a passing lane each. There is a blend form:
In the modern world, the SDGs are shouted. (´・ω・`)
Public transportation should consider the use of wheelchairs by removing steps.
Crossing the road is dangerous and such layouts tend to be excluded.
For platform-type bus stops, you must use stairs or elevators to get to another platform.
Creating a multi platform bus stop underground is not desirable from a cost and barrier-free perspective.
That's why the new bus terminal in the basement of Tokyo Station shown in the previous post is one-way and has a continuous platform on one side.

There is one entrance and one exit. The inside is a one-way street. The bus inside goes counterclockwise. Japanese buses drive on the left side and the bus door is on the left side. In other words, there is one island in the center here. There are 6 consecutive bus stops outside the central island.

I would be happy if such a layout could be realized in underground but stop. (´・ω・`)

In the case of railroads, it is not easy to move tracks (lanes) next to each other, so it is inevitable that there will be many multi-platforms.
(´・ω・`)シミュトランスのアップデート履歴(日本語) (※更新停止中)
bit.ly/3AuKHHP

PJMack

The MBTA Courthouse Station listed above only has one lane in each direction with no way for buses to pass each other.  It is primary for trolley-buses only, but there were instances where low emission diesel buses were used temporarily. 



I believe OTRP branch has a flag that can be applied to road way (in addition to the one-way flags) that prevents city vehicles from spawning on them and cities from automatically connecting to them.  Perhaps porting this to extended would help with allowing players to build BRT systems.

jamespetts

Quote from: PJMack on May 30, 2022, 07:56:48 PMThe MBTA Courthouse Station listed above only has one lane in each direction with no way for buses to pass each other.  It is primary for trolley-buses only, but there were instances where low emission diesel buses were used temporarily. 



I believe OTRP branch has a flag that can be applied to road way (in addition to the one-way flags) that prevents city vehicles from spawning on them and cities from automatically connecting to them.  Perhaps porting this to extended would help with allowing players to build BRT systems.
An interesting idea. Certainly, we would still need specific tunnels and way constraints, but this would certainly help.
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Ranran(Hibernating)

Quote from: PJMack on May 30, 2022, 07:56:48 PMI believe OTRP branch has a flag that can be applied to road way (in addition to the one-way flags) that prevents city vehicles from spawning on them and cities from automatically connecting to them.  Perhaps porting this to extended would help with allowing players to build BRT systems.
In stanadrd, there is a feature that citycars will not spawn on tiles owned by the player. But in Extended it doesn't work because all city roads are public roads. So I didn't incorporate that feature.
I think it is better to prevent roads with way constraint prohibitive from becoming public roads. At the same time, prevent private cars from entering roads with way constraint prohibitive. Because I don't think the private car has the equipment needed for roads that require special equipment.

For example, private cars must not enter the road dedicated to guided buses.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guided_bus
And such restricted roads need to be within the city and allow players to own them. It's the same as a railroad track. It is not always necessary for the city to manage roads where private cars are not available.


And one of the reasons I don't like the features of the OTRP, as I've explained before, is that it ignores the link to economics. For example, in the real world, narrow but inexpensive roads that can be laid cannot be overtaken, and very wide roads can always be overtaken, but the land can be expensive to lay. For example, it is a bus stop with a wide road or a stop zone that can always overtake a stopped bus. In other words, function, economy and appearance are linked. This also leads to player comprehension. I think the reason why I have to rely on the display of arrows is that this point is lacking.  (There is a difference between having to always rely on it and it being more convenient to have it.) This is the point I have been making for some time.
Quote from: prissi on April 05, 2021, 12:29:55 PMAs why OTRP had not been in put into standard:
There were some minor differencies upon how to implement it (I was favouring a direction wayobj so any road could be upgraded versus using a special road).
In this respect, I think there is a part where it does not match both standard and extended. Sadly, Japanese people tend not to focus on gameplay because it is essentially enough to see panties... (´・ω・`)
(´・ω・`)シミュトランスのアップデート履歴(日本語) (※更新停止中)
bit.ly/3AuKHHP

jamespetts

The discussion of prohibitive constraints is interesting. I think that the exsiting logic should already prevent private cars from entering roads with prohibitive constraints and prevent these roads becoming public rights of way by diversionary routes (as the route finder object would lack the necessary matching constraint), but this would not stop such a road being taken over automatically in a town. Perhaps it is just this one element, not allowing a town to adopt a road with a prohibitive constraint, that needs to be added.
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Octavius

Quote from: Ranran on May 30, 2022, 09:10:25 AMCrossing the road is dangerous and such layouts tend to be excluded.
I checked another 31 bus stations at main railway stations of some large and medium cities in 7 European countries and it appears that people are usually allowed to walk across the road. The only one in the sample where this does not appear to be normal was Fulda. A few others have grade-separated access, but only in addition to ordinary crossings, usually if the main station hall is at a different level from the bus platforms. Note the one I posted a picture of in post #4: you can see platform N and part of platform M. This is a modern bus station, with a separate waiting room, allowing for minimalistic platforms.

I also found a particular German habit. At Frankfurt am Main, Hamburg, Hannover and München Hbf, part of the bus platforms are bay platforms, requiring the bus to reverse on departure, back to a one-way street closed to ordinary traffic, before proceeding to the exit of the station.

Quote from: PJMack on May 30, 2022, 07:56:48 PMI believe OTRP branch has a flag that can be applied to road way (in addition to the one-way flags) that prevents city vehicles from spawning on them and cities from automatically connecting to them.  Perhaps porting this to extended would help with allowing players to build BRT systems.
I concur. Bus lanes, where only buses and emergency vehicles are allowed so they can avoid traffic jams, are common. Every self-respecting city has some.

jamespetts

Quote from: Octavius on May 31, 2022, 07:41:46 PMI also found a particular German habit. At Frankfurt am Main, Hamburg, Hannover and München Hbf, part of the bus platforms are bay platforms, requiring the bus to reverse on departure, back to a one-way street closed to ordinary traffic, before proceeding to the exit of the station.
I concur

This is not unique to Germany - this is fairly common in UK 'bus stations: see, for example, this picture of the 'bus station in Swansea, Wales:

Buses at Swansea Bus Station by Kristian Davies, on Flickr
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Ranran(Hibernating)

#42
I think the bay type bus stop is intended to stay there for a long time. In other words, it is not suitable for frequent traffic. I think that the reason why parallel parking bus stops are preferred in Japan and Asia is also because of the heavy traffic. Also, as you can see from the photo, it requires enough land. The bus must go backwards and turn. This is a common arrangement in freight yards. From a game perspective, it can be useful if you want to wait for loading at that stop. Players will want to avoid unnecessary reversal time penalties if they want to make a normal stop without waiting. It's the same in the real world. This is my point in arguing that underground bus stops other than the terminal end should be allowed.


I implemented some features in my test branch.
https://github.com/Ranran-the-JuicyPork/simutrans-extended/tree/2206-privatecar

- private car cannot enter the road with constraint prohibitive.
However, it disappears instead of turning back. I'm not familiar with the private car routing code, so it would be difficult to code how to find a routing that avoids it.
- Cities will not rob it if a player lays a road with constraint prohibitive.
- Roads with constraint prohibitives are not considered living roads, so residents will not complain when removing them. However, since it can be used as an alternative to diversionary route search, this point needs to be fixed.


Quoteand cities from automatically connecting to them. 
I suspect that the noise barrier function already implemented may have had such a feature. However, I don't think cities should automatically connect to roads that has constraint prohibitive. I think this is easy to implement.


I don't know if this is a bug, but city auto-connections produce signs that shouldn't be placed at intersections.
(´・ω・`)シミュトランスのアップデート履歴(日本語) (※更新停止中)
bit.ly/3AuKHHP

PJMack

Quote from: jamespetts on May 31, 2022, 12:11:45 PMThe discussion of prohibitive constraints is interesting. I think that the exsiting logic should already prevent private cars from entering roads with prohibitive constraints and prevent these roads becoming public rights of way by diversionary routes (as the route finder object would lack the necessary matching constraint), but this would not stop such a road being taken over automatically in a town. Perhaps it is just this one element, not allowing a town to adopt a road with a prohibitive constraint, that needs to be added.

We may also want to consider having one prohibitive constraint being enabled for private cars.  I am not sure how common it is in Britain, but there are some parkways in the US are exclusive to cars with no trucks or buses allowed (though some may permit vans if they fit).  One example that comes to mind is Soldiers Field Road and Storrow Drive in Boston which has a height limit of only 10' (3m).

wlindley

Quote from: PJMack on May 31, 2022, 11:27:32 PMSoldiers Field Road and Storrow Drive in Boston which has a height limit of only 10' (3m).
The technical restriction is, "Pleasure Vehicles Only" — a stipulation by the families who donated the land.  One wonders whether the Boston Police Department has ever ticketed someone for using these roads to travel to work ("But officer, I really enjoy my job!")