News:

Simutrans Forum Archive
A complete record of the old Simutrans Forum.

Scrolling and the "scroll inverse" option - should it be the default?

Started by jamespetts, January 11, 2023, 01:14:38 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

jamespetts

Can I ask - how many people use the "scroll inverse" option? Indeed, how many people even know that it is there?

The default scrolling behaviour in Simutrans (both Standard and Extended) is to replicate the scrolling in Transport Tycoon: that is, when one clicks the mouse and moves it, the world moves in the direction in which one is moving the mouse. I have always found this counter-intuitive, and one of the first things that I did when I first started to play Simutrans was find and enable the "scroll inverse" option.

What the "scroll inverse" option does is do the opposite: when one clicks the mouse button and moves the mouse, the world moves in the opposite direction to the direction in which the mouse moves. What this means is that scrolling is like grabbing the world with the mouse and moving it around, in much the same way as one would with, for example, a .PDF document and the hand grab tool, or with any sort of scrolling with a touch screen interface.

I ask because I strongly suspect that, for new players, especially those accustomed to touch screen interfaces, the current default is extremely difficult to deal with. Many may not explore the menus for long enough to find the "scroll inverse" option to remedy this. I am considering making "scroll inverse" the default option in the future, and I should be grateful for people's views on this. The traditional option would still be available; this would only be a change to the default.
Download Simutrans-Extended.

Want to help with development? See here for things to do for coding, and here for information on how to make graphics/objects.

Follow Simutrans-Extended on Facebook.

Matthew

I strongly support this for the reasons given above. It's the first thing I do too.
(Signature being tested) If you enjoy playing Simutrans, then you might also enjoy watching Japan Railway Journal
Available in English and simplified Chinese
如果您喜欢玩Simutrans的话,那么说不定就想看《日本铁路之旅》(英语也有简体中文字幕)。

zook2

Every time I come back to Simutrans this gets on my nerves for a few minutes. After that I don't notice it anymore, but making inverse the default would be good.

TurfIt

Quote from: jamespetts on January 11, 2023, 01:14:38 AMThe default scrolling behaviour in Simutrans (both Standard and Extended) 
Standard and Extended are different defaults.... standard changed ~5 years ago to inverse as default in a stowaway commit (no mention of intention of change in message).

Inverse is, well, backwards! Horrible. 
Are you moving the world(map), or the camera?  Worlds are heavy and can't be moved...


jamespetts

Thank you all for your feedback. I have now effected the change. The "scroll inverse" option has been replaced (in the English translations) with a "retro scrolling" option, which, when selected, will use the classic Simutrans/Transport Tycoon scrolling, and, when deactivated, will work in the way that "scroll inverse" formerly worked. It is off by default.

Those who have previously turned "scroll inverse" on will need to turn off "retro scrolling" to get the desired effect.
Download Simutrans-Extended.

Want to help with development? See here for things to do for coding, and here for information on how to make graphics/objects.

Follow Simutrans-Extended on Facebook.

Ranran

Quote from: TurfIt on January 11, 2023, 06:52:45 PMWorlds are heavy and can't be moved...
How do you kick your feet off the ground and move forward?
How do you move your hands to swim?
If the ground does not move, the reaction will move the camera. Therefore, I think it is a very intuitive operation.
pak.256やpak.nipponのような複数タイル市内建築物があるpakセットはextendedではちゃんと遊べません。それどころかextendedの追い越し機能はバグまみれで修正が難しくなっており、都市機能および道路機能というゲーム土台部分を壊し、開発作業&コードメンテナンスの足かせになっている。それは最終的にプレイヤーの損失に他ならない。その原因は全て1人の日本人=ひめし@himeshi_hob(THleaderH)によるもの。周囲のアドバイスをガン無視して結局実装されてしまった。彼は問題を認識しつつ5年以上放置して今なおOTRPの開発を続けている。あまりにも身勝手で無責任。日本の人達はそういう事実にちゃんと目を向けるべき(´・ω・`)

Mariculous

I am used to both and it usually takes me a few seconds of confusion to switch from one mode to the other one.
Some games consider moving the world around as "normal" whilst moving the camera around is considered "inverse".
Others do it the other way round and yet others go for one of these and don't even offer an option to switch this behavior.

In most games, I'm usually using the screen borders to move the camera in that direction, so I think it feels slightly more intuitive to me to move the camera around, not the world.
But then again, I don't really mind as I can quickly switch between these modes in mind and I am quite sure I'm not the only gamer who can do this ;)

So who are these people that cannot switch this mode in mind quickly? And what feels most intuitive to them?

Ranran

Reminder since I remembered how this is like in other games.

A more intuitive way to communicate this difference in behavior to the player is to change the mouse cursor graphic while navigating the map.

scrolling mode A:
For scrolling actions that move the ground, a hand mouse cursor is displayed instead of the current cursor while dragging.
For example, the inspection tool's magnifying glass cursor doesn't work while being dragged, tricking players. It would be nice to change this to a hand cursor.

scrolling mode B:
When representing the direction in which the camera is moving, the cursor changes to an arrow pointing in the direction in which the camera is moving.
However, I think that this mouse cursor expression is generally combined with Infinite mouse scrolls turned off to continuously scroll the map.
What makes this behavior so inconvenient in simutrans right now is that the cursor disappears and you don't know where it is.
pak.256やpak.nipponのような複数タイル市内建築物があるpakセットはextendedではちゃんと遊べません。それどころかextendedの追い越し機能はバグまみれで修正が難しくなっており、都市機能および道路機能というゲーム土台部分を壊し、開発作業&コードメンテナンスの足かせになっている。それは最終的にプレイヤーの損失に他ならない。その原因は全て1人の日本人=ひめし@himeshi_hob(THleaderH)によるもの。周囲のアドバイスをガン無視して結局実装されてしまった。彼は問題を認識しつつ5年以上放置して今なおOTRPの開発を続けている。あまりにも身勝手で無責任。日本の人達はそういう事実にちゃんと目を向けるべき(´・ω・`)

jamespetts

Quote from: [C] Ranran on January 20, 2023, 11:16:34 AMReminder since I remembered how this is like in other games.

A more intuitive way to communicate this difference in behavior to the player is to change the mouse cursor graphic while navigating the map.

scrolling mode A:
For scrolling actions that move the ground, a hand mouse cursor is displayed instead of the current cursor while dragging.
For example, the inspection tool's magnifying glass cursor doesn't work while being dragged, tricking players. It would be nice to change this to a hand cursor.

scrolling mode B:
When representing the direction in which the camera is moving, the cursor changes to an arrow pointing in the direction in which the camera is moving.
However, I think that this mouse cursor expression is generally combined with Infinite mouse scrolls turned off to continuously scroll the map.
What makes this behavior so inconvenient in simutrans right now is that the cursor disappears and you don't know where it is.

This is a very good idea.
Download Simutrans-Extended.

Want to help with development? See here for things to do for coding, and here for information on how to make graphics/objects.

Follow Simutrans-Extended on Facebook.