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Author Topic: [Bugs?] Finances, interest in ST-exp 3.11  (Read 7333 times)

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Offline whoami

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[Bugs?] Finances, interest in ST-exp 3.11
« on: May 22, 2009, 07:54:57 PM »
I have some strange effects in the finances window (using a savegame from ST-std with ST-exp 3.11 SDL Windows, with Pak128), at least when using fast forward (CPU utilization is <<100%):
- interest is shown as always 0 in the table, but not in the graph
- credit limit jumps between 0 and the intended value
- in the table, interest is listed above gross profit (internal name - the strings in the screenshot are untranslated!), but it seems to be deducted after that sum has been calculated (gross profit is >0 in that table and the graph, yet the company is going down the drain very quickly).



Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: [Bugs?] Finances, interest in ST-exp 3.11
« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2009, 09:36:37 PM »
Whoami,

thank you very much for your report. To make it easier to track down the problem, can you upload your saved game? Thank you.

Offline Colin

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Re: [Bugs?] Finances, interest in ST-exp 3.11
« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2009, 11:44:13 PM »
I believe that this is what was happening when I asked about changing the Maintenance Rates. I must admit that I didn't notice the $0 Interest so I've just had a look and there it is $0, and it's still there using PAK64 r3.11. Money is draining out faster that water down a plug hole.

edit 10:20 AEST Talking about losing money. I have a small fast train 5 passenger cars plus front and rear engine. It started off from one station showing a loss of $240,395,.69 it lost a further $118,395,80 going from one station to another with a full load of 384 passengers. Each passenger therefore is paying $0.30c per ticket, (Tell me where and I'll emigrate.lol) at a cost per tile travelled of $1,691,3685 Something has to be wrong either with the way that the finances are worked out or with the way I'm playing the game.

Excuse me if my math is wrong, my calculator doesn't work well with money, a bit like my brain.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2009, 12:41:12 AM by Colin »

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: [Bugs?] Finances, interest in ST-exp 3.11
« Reply #3 on: May 23, 2009, 11:08:37 AM »
Colin,

can you upload a saved game to make it easier for me to track down the problem? Thank you for your report :-)

Offline Colin

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Re: [Bugs?] Finances, interest in ST-exp 3.11
« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2009, 06:26:43 PM »
Colin,

can you upload a saved game to make it easier for me to track down the problem? Thank you for your report :-)

Sure thing James will do it now.

Sorry James I keep getting "error File to large" even though the file is only 1.8mb and the maz size is listed as being 20mb
« Last Edit: May 23, 2009, 06:40:08 PM by Colin »

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Re: [Bugs?] Finances, interest in ST-exp 3.11
« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2009, 06:38:56 PM »
Ahh, I forgot to add a note to this thread as I had planned to do earlier: I have found the problem with interest and the credit limit, which will be fixed in 3.12. Thank you very much for your report!

I have not found any problems with the revenue, though, so an upload would still be appreciated.

Offline Colin

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Re: [Bugs?] Finances, interest in ST-exp 3.11
« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2009, 06:43:47 PM »
Ahh, I forgot to add a note to this thread as I had planned to do earlier: I have found the problem with interest and the credit limit, which will be fixed in 3.12. Thank you very much for your report!

I have not found any problems with the revenue, though, so an upload would still be appreciated.

Please see my edit to my last post re: file size. This post by you came in just after my original saying that I was doing it now.

Offline whoami

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Re: [Bugs?] Finances, interest in ST-exp 3.11
« Reply #7 on: May 23, 2009, 06:55:11 PM »
@Colin: did you try to upload it here?

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: [Bugs?] Finances, interest in ST-exp 3.11
« Reply #8 on: May 23, 2009, 06:55:31 PM »
Colin,

it is better to upload to files.simutrans-germany.com rather than the forum.

Offline Colin

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Re: [Bugs?] Finances, interest in ST-exp 3.11
« Reply #9 on: May 23, 2009, 06:57:40 PM »
Colin,

it is better to upload to files.simutrans-germany.com rather than the forum.

That's where I am uploading them to, and that is where I'm getting the "Too large" error.
I was going to post a screenshot of the File Sharing Page but "Additional Options" are not working on this board, don't know about other boards.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2009, 07:03:35 PM by Colin »

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Re: [Bugs?] Finances, interest in ST-exp 3.11
« Reply #10 on: May 23, 2009, 07:07:33 PM »
Hmm, very odd. Perhaps you need to create a login name/password to upload larger files?

Offline Colin

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Re: [Bugs?] Finances, interest in ST-exp 3.11
« Reply #11 on: May 23, 2009, 07:13:28 PM »
Hmm, very odd. Perhaps you need to create a login name/password to upload larger files?

I hate to keep contradicting you, but I do have a LOG IN/PASSWORD and I've uploaded files before, which you should have read ,as you requested them.

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: [Bugs?] Finances, interest in ST-exp 3.11
« Reply #12 on: May 23, 2009, 07:19:19 PM »
Hmm, that's curious, then. I didn't remember about your previous uploads, sorry. I'll PM you my e-mail address, and you can send the .sve to me directly. Sorry about the difficulties.

Offline Colin

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Re: [Bugs?] Finances, interest in ST-exp 3.11
« Reply #13 on: May 23, 2009, 07:27:51 PM »
Hmm, that's curious, then. I didn't remember about your previous uploads, sorry. I'll PM you my e-mail address, and you can send the .sve to me directly. Sorry about the difficulties.

That's ok James, I've just tried again with the same result. So I'll send it direct to you.. Many thanks for your patience.

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: [Bugs?] Finances, interest in ST-exp 3.11
« Reply #14 on: May 23, 2009, 08:13:25 PM »
Colin,

thank you for sending the file. I have had a look at it, and cannot immediately find the problem. The train appears to be capable of generating significant revenue if the "wait until fully loaded" option is turned off (this option drastically increases journey times, therefore concomitantly reducing revenues). However, the line is not profitable: the maintenance costs of that train are, I think, prohibitively high. I have not noticed that problem with any other paksets.

Offline Colin

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Re: [Bugs?] Finances, interest in ST-exp 3.11
« Reply #15 on: May 24, 2009, 12:49:56 AM »
Colin,

thank you for sending the file. I have had a look at it, and cannot immediately find the problem. The train appears to be capable of generating significant revenue if the "wait until fully loaded" option is turned off (this option drastically increases journey times, therefore concomitantly reducing revenues). However, the line is not profitable: the maintenance costs of that train are, I think, prohibitively high. I have not noticed that problem with any other paksets.

Thanks James for your fast response. If you remember one of my other posts asked about maintenance costs. They are exceedingly high, although that doesn't seem to affect the game in Standard. This train would be making heaps of money in Standard.

I'll persevere with it and see what happens. I've reduced some of my Maintenance cost by removing all surplus Depots. Hopefully this will help.

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Re: [Bugs?] Finances, interest in ST-exp 3.11
« Reply #16 on: May 24, 2009, 09:44:22 AM »
Colin,

do you mean vehicle maintenance or track/building maintenance?

Offline Colin

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Re: [Bugs?] Finances, interest in ST-exp 3.11
« Reply #17 on: May 25, 2009, 01:10:38 AM »
Colin,

do you mean vehicle maintenance or track/building maintenance?

To be quite honest James, I've no idea. I'm just talking about the MONTHLY Maint charge which is taken at the end of each month. I thought it applied to everything. Tracks, Depots, Vehicles etc.

edit 12:10AEST James I've just done a little experiment. I removed the 100% loading as you suggested, I then followed the train to see what happened. To cut a long story short here is what happened between what I will call 'A' & 'B'. Train travels from 'A' to 'B' with 389 passengers earns $13617.00, costs $23321.00.Train travels from 'B' to 'A' with 699 passengers earns $2316.00, costs $34321.00 How is it possible for a train going the same distance, with double the passengers, earn less and cost more?
Also going through 11 stations and starting with a loss of $723.887.00 it ended up making a further loss of $249.807.00. It generated a total earnings of $128.525.00. On one journey with a full load of 1024 passengers, going to 3 stops it, earned respectively $35.206.00, $26.980.00 and $48.785.00. All distances more or less equal. Between other stops, again of the same distance, it earned as little as $568.00. Why the difference?
« Last Edit: May 25, 2009, 02:39:29 AM by Colin »

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Re: [Bugs?] Finances, interest in ST-exp 3.11
« Reply #18 on: May 25, 2009, 09:51:11 AM »
Colin,

unlike in Simutrans-Standard, passengers and goods will only pay at the end of their journey, not at each hop. So if you have a network A-B-C-D, only the passengers alighting at B will pay when the train reaches B. The passengers from A bound to C and D will not pay until they reach C or D respectively. Likewise, only those passengers from A or B that alight at C will pay when the train reaches C, those passengers from A, B and C waiting until they reach D to pay for the whole journey. So, two journeys with equal numbers of passengers aboard will produce different amounts of revenue depending on the proportion of passengers that alight at each stop.

As to the vehicle's running costs: that is not something that Simutrans-Experimental alters. Simutrans-Experimental only alters running costs in two cases: (1) where the vehicle is obsolete; and (2) where the pakset creator has added a fixed monthly maintenance parameter (which will not be the case using Pak64). Are you sure that the maintenance cost of that particular train is higher than in Simutrans-Standard?

Offline Colin

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Re: [Bugs?] Finances, interest in ST-exp 3.11
« Reply #19 on: May 25, 2009, 11:55:09 PM »
Colin,
 Are you sure that the maintenance cost of that particular train is higher than in Simutrans-Standard?

Hi James, I'm not sure about that, I do know that in Standard the train would be earning hundreds of thousands of Simu-Credits. Your explanation of the way passengers pay in experimental has satisfied me on that topic. However, It does seem to make it almost impossible to make a profit. Maybe the fare that the passenger pays could be increased to make it a bit easier to perhaps, not make a profit as such, quickly, but to offset (ease) the running cost somewhat?

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Re: [Bugs?] Finances, interest in ST-exp 3.11
« Reply #20 on: May 26, 2009, 07:57:47 AM »
Colin,

why would that means of calculating the fare make it harder to earn money?

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Re: [Bugs?] Finances, interest in ST-exp 3.11
« Reply #21 on: May 26, 2009, 08:28:13 AM »
Colin,

why would that means of calculating the fare make it harder to earn money?

Heh! I wrote,  Maybe the fare that the passenger pays could be increased to make it a bit easier to perhaps, not make a profit as such, quickly, but to offset (ease) the running cost somewhat? So I don't understand your question. Sorry

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Re: [Bugs?] Finances, interest in ST-exp 3.11
« Reply #22 on: May 26, 2009, 10:33:09 AM »
Colin,

sorry - one or both of us is misunderstanding the other! I thought that you wrote that the way in which revenue was calculated in Simutrans-Experimental, "does seem to make it almost impossible to make a profit".

Might the problem be that you have not reduced the speed bonus? In Simutrans-Standard, the speed bonus is calculated based on the vehicle's maximum speed. In Simutrans-Experimental, it is calculated based on the vehicle's average speed, which is of necessity lower than the maximum speed. Without any adjustment in the speed bonus, revenues will be lower. Simutrans-Experimental version 3.0 and later has a simuconf.tab setting to apply a uniform reduction to all speed bonus settings to enable Simutrans-Experimental to be used with Simutrans-Standard paksets without making it  harder to make a profit. The example configuration files given with the download include that setting (and set at a somewhat generous level). If you have not used that configuration file, or added that setting to your own simuconf.tab, then you will find that your profits are reduced, especially with faster vehicles.

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Re: [Bugs?] Finances, interest in ST-exp 3.11
« Reply #23 on: May 26, 2009, 06:47:07 PM »
Colin,

sorry - one or both of us is misunderstanding the other! I thought that you wrote that the way in which revenue was calculated in Simutrans-Experimental, "does seem to make it almost impossible to make a profit".

Might the problem be that you have not reduced the speed bonus? In Simutrans-Standard, the speed bonus is calculated based on the vehicle's maximum speed. In Simutrans-Experimental, it is calculated based on the vehicle's average speed, which is of necessity lower than the maximum speed. Without any adjustment in the speed bonus, revenues will be lower. Simutrans-Experimental version 3.0 and later has a simuconf.tab setting to apply a uniform reduction to all speed bonus settings to enable Simutrans-Experimental to be used with Simutrans-Standard paksets without making it  harder to make a profit. The example configuration files given with the download include that setting (and set at a somewhat generous level). If you have not used that configuration file, or added that setting to your own simuconf.tab, then you will find that your profits are reduced, especially with faster vehicles.

Hi James, You're right of course I did write that. I dothink that the way that earnings are calculated make it hard to make a profit, but don't ask me how. I'm not a programmer, It just seems that no matter what is earned it is never sufficient to cover Operating and/or Maintenance costs. No business can survive that way. I thought that by increasing the earning ratio to the costs involved it would make the game more viable.

Are you saying that by reducing the speed bonus that it will improve the earnings ratio? if so this may be where I'm going wrong because I've always increased the speed bonus.

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Re: [Bugs?] Finances, interest in ST-exp 3.11
« Reply #24 on: May 26, 2009, 07:00:11 PM »
Colin,

aha, I think that that is where you are going wrong! The speed bonus is the speed at which passengers/goods have to travel to pay the full amount. In Simutrans-Standard, that bonus is earned simply by the goods/passengers travelling in a vehicle with the appropriate maximum speed; in Simutrans-Experimental, the average speed that that line or convoy travels in service must be that high. Thus, the higher the speed bonus, the harder that it is for your transport to make a profit, since they have to go faster to earn the same revenue.

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Re: [Bugs?] Finances, interest in ST-exp 3.11
« Reply #25 on: May 26, 2009, 07:04:33 PM »
Colin,

aha, I think that that is where you are going wrong! The speed bonus is the speed at which passengers/goods have to travel to pay the full amount. In Simutrans-Standard, that bonus is earned simply by the goods/passengers travelling in a vehicle with the appropriate maximum speed; in Simutrans-Experimental, the average speed that that line or convoy travels in service must be that high. Thus, the higher the speed bonus, the harder that it is for your transport to make a profit, since they have to go faster to earn the same revenue.
Thanks James, I'm away to correct that right now. I feel like a right dill.

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Re: [Bugs?] Finances, interest in ST-exp 3.11
« Reply #26 on: May 26, 2009, 07:34:14 PM »
Don't worry - easy mistake to make :-)