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Author Topic: Buy land  (Read 8851 times)

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Offline timfan3939

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Buy land
« on: May 27, 2009, 02:30:56 AM »
Can I buy a blank area so that no one will build anything on it?

I mean, buying an area of land without build anything( including road, building, ... ) so that other player and the resident that computer control will not build anything on the area.

I hope I have explained my question clear enough.

Offline colonyan

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Re: Buy land
« Reply #1 on: May 27, 2009, 03:25:08 AM »
Umm, you can't buy it but you can build on it(like cheapest railroad track) to reserve it. No one can use that tile.
Hope its clear.

Offline timfan3939

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Re: Buy land
« Reply #2 on: May 27, 2009, 03:43:40 AM »
Thanks for your help, colonyan.

Your answer is clear enough.

Thanks.

Offline colonyan

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Re: Buy land
« Reply #3 on: May 27, 2009, 06:07:25 AM »
np :)

Offline prissi

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Re: Buy land
« Reply #4 on: May 27, 2009, 08:13:12 PM »
Placing a marker should wrok too.

Offline z9999

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Re: Buy land
« Reply #5 on: May 27, 2009, 08:46:53 PM »
Placing a marker should wrok too.

Marker is a object. It doesn't own land.
It avoids city roads and city buildings, but doesn't avoid other player's way.

So, any player can build ways on the other player's marker.
Is this a bug of way builder ?

Offline Spike

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Re: Buy land
« Reply #6 on: May 28, 2009, 09:35:54 AM »
Marker was originally invented to reserve land for players (aka "buy"). if it doesn't, I'd consider it a bug in current Simutrans versions.

Offline jamespetts

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Re: Buy land
« Reply #7 on: May 28, 2009, 09:41:11 AM »
It replicates the feature that does the same thing in Transport Tycoon Deluxe, doesn't it?

Offline vilvoh

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Re: Buy land
« Reply #8 on: May 28, 2009, 09:48:31 AM »
I think that feature is used mainly as a direct link. You put a marker on a particular zone, and if the map is large or you have a lot things rolling out, you have quick access to those areas through to markers list. Anyway, if the original approach was not finally implemented, well, it may be useful for the future multiplayer mode. However, right now in single mode, it has not to much sense as the AI's are not able to use this feature.

Offline z9999

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Re: Buy land
« Reply #9 on: May 28, 2009, 10:03:50 AM »
Quote
Release of 99.06
   CHANGE: ground can no long be owned, only objects on it (need some tweaks with labels still)
Release of 99.07
   ADD: new label enables land buying (cost by 'cost_buy_land' in simuconf.tab, default -100), help file now possible ('label_frame.txt')

So, in current versions, nobody can own ground.
Old code of 99.07 only owned first object, (cityroad, city buildings).
Since player owning cityroad or city buildings was wrong behavior, I removed it.

Offline Dwachs

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Re: Buy land
« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2009, 10:15:30 AM »
@vilvoh: the ai's use this feature to reserve grounds, however it is perfectly possible to build ways on markers of different players.

Offline Spike

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Re: Buy land
« Reply #11 on: May 28, 2009, 10:20:45 AM »
It replicates the feature that does the same thing in Transport Tycoon Deluxe, doesn't it?

Yes. But I'm not sure how the feature evolved, I think it was changed even while I was still active and can nowadays be quite different.

Offline jamespetts

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Re: Buy land
« Reply #12 on: May 28, 2009, 10:27:31 AM »
I meant the original, proprietary TTD, not OTTD.

Offline vilvoh

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Re: Buy land
« Reply #13 on: May 28, 2009, 10:34:15 AM »
@vilvoh: the ai's use this feature to reserve grounds, however it is perfectly possible to build ways on markers of different players.
That's why I write the word use in italic. As Hajo has said, the feature may have evolved for other ways, and your comment confirm that the feature is available however any player can override it. Therefore I'm agree with z999's comment, what's the actual sense of it? is it there in case it's needed in the future?

Offline Dwachs

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Re: Buy land
« Reply #14 on: May 28, 2009, 10:50:32 AM »
It seems like a bug in several algorithms: one can build ways through tiles with markers, but no ways starting/ending on a tile with a marker. One can build stations on markers but no depots.

Offline VS

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Re: Buy land
« Reply #15 on: May 28, 2009, 11:53:41 AM »
There seems to be some confusion. TTD had two different tools, one for adding labels (only text above terrain), one for buying land (these ugly signs and brown earth). What we have is a mix of these that buys land, adds a label and as a bonus allows some navigation.

I think our current model, mixing ownership and labels, is very poor design. These are two radically different goals. Consider:
1) Reserving more tiles for way will clutter the map or list with lots of empty labels.
2) You cannot label a place unless it's your own tile or empty. Labels in cities = fail. Labels on industries = fail.

If you can't tell: I do not use that feature at all :(

Offline Spike

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Re: Buy land
« Reply #16 on: May 28, 2009, 12:04:01 PM »
It started as the "ugly sign" feature to reserve land. Other functions were added later. I never used it either, since it was no more what I had it intended to be.

Maybe we should split it. The AI needed the "reserve land" feature in the past, since from the moment when it reserved land for stations till the moment when actually everything was built, some time passed and it was important that players cannot interfere with the AIs plans.

I assume the AIs now work differently, but a "reserve land" feature still seems to be useful.

Markers and navigation should be split from it.

Offline z9999

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Re: Buy land
« Reply #17 on: May 28, 2009, 12:45:49 PM »
At least, in 84.164 and 84.22.2, we couldn't build marker without label name.

I really want new buying land feature without destroying nature to save forest and to forbid to expand city.

Offline VS

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Re: Buy land
« Reply #18 on: May 28, 2009, 12:53:08 PM »
z9999: You think the same :D And you already did a good job on the marker!

Offline IgorEliezer

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Re: Buy land
« Reply #19 on: May 28, 2009, 01:37:32 PM »
Fences?

Some time ago, I thought Simutrans could have fences as ground object. Instead of a huge green terrain (years ago), forests, pastures and plantations could exist and fences would delimit them.

Fences could be used to project or reserve areas, like a highway, reserving an area, or limiting a city (who does remember Timothy's fences?). And there would be 2 types of fences: destructible (AI can build over and city can grow through), non-destructible (only owner can destruct - used to reserve and protect areas, maybe it's a tad bad if overused, Public Service could be the only Player that can perform it).
« Last Edit: May 28, 2009, 01:42:39 PM by IgorTekton »

Offline prissi

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Re: Buy land
« Reply #20 on: May 28, 2009, 02:56:52 PM »
Reserve area will not come, since it would make multiplayer games very complicated. This is an eternal topic on OpenTTD.

And you can have fences and so on, just use them as a way with waytype 255. It is is and used for ages (even in pak128 if memory serves me right).

Offline z9999

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Re: Buy land
« Reply #21 on: May 28, 2009, 05:41:29 PM »
Reserve area will not come, since it would make multiplayer games very complicated. This is an eternal topic on OpenTTD.

Reserving area tool itself is not only the reason of it. Any obstructive behavior is also possible in simutrans anyway.
We don't need to play against unwelcome player. We don't need to make a game like commercial online-games which playing against the general public.

Offline jamespetts

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Re: Buy land
« Reply #22 on: May 28, 2009, 07:12:13 PM »
Perhaps the reservation should be optional in multiplayer games, disablable by the public player?

Offline Isaac Eiland-Hall

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Re: Buy land
« Reply #23 on: May 28, 2009, 07:22:12 PM »
I don't understand why reserved areas are a problem if fences aren't.

But on the other hand, I don't fully understand why fences can't be used to reserve areas... so I sort of see both sides of this one, unless I'm missing something. :)

One of the comic paks has beautiful plazas and trails graphics for the 'fences' (Although it lacks fences, to my chagrin), for anyone not realizing that... they don't have to be fences - any graphic can be drawn (I think canals exist for pak64 - they're also pretty). (so when I know I might want to expand a truck stop near a city, I strategically place fence tiles to protect the area... graphically, it might be cool to have two "fence"s: an outer wall, and inner grassy area - this would be pleasing to the eye, and 'reserve' the tiles.....)

My only problem with the current setup is that, if I want to make a two-tile-wide freeway into a huge city, I have to make a four-tile-wide swath so the city won't connect to the freeway (using fences to protect my road tiles)...

Offline Lmallet

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Re: Buy land
« Reply #24 on: May 28, 2009, 07:53:36 PM »
But on the other hand, I don't fully understand why fences can't be used to reserve areas... so I sort of see both sides of this one, unless I'm missing something. :)
Only thing I can think of is in situations where you only need to reserve one tile.  Fences need at least two to build (yes, I know about the "build 2 destroy 1" technique :)  ).

Offline Isaac Eiland-Hall

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Re: Buy land
« Reply #25 on: May 28, 2009, 09:02:51 PM »
Now that's a good point -- I've redesigned my highway interchanges to account for the fact that I can't fill a single empty tile... (Although now that citycars can again make sharp turns, technically I don't need to anymore.. still, I hate those sharp turns :) )

Offline IgorEliezer

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Re: Buy land
« Reply #26 on: May 28, 2009, 09:19:25 PM »
Let me say a thing: reservation is different from possession.

Reservation is when you say "reserve this thing for me, and tomorrow I'll buy it", if you don't buy within the term, you'll lose "the thing" for someone else to buy.

Possession is "it's mine; I bought it"; it's an acquisition.

In Simutrans, the land is yours when you build on, and no longer is yours when you destroy what you've built. ATM, you don't need to pay for land. If you do, who you will pay for when you start a game? Public Service? Simutrans is not a real estate game, OTOH I know, in real life, "cost of the land" plays a role in transport cost when you are building a network.

Reservation could be used when you want to build anything in a limited space, but you must use that space within a term/period (a day, a month...). If the period expires, you lose the reservation. I think this is the only way to avoid abuse of this tool *if* implemented. Reserving an area in possession way would not good because this could be used against others players, AI or humans.

Now about fences: I would like, even, fences were implemented officially in Simutrans or as add-on; not as "a way that looks like a fence" but an a new object, as I've said, a buildable ground-object. I would use it to close a highway or to delimit areas of the map, or to limit a city.

Also I feel the lack of farms and wide plantations; fences could be used here too.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2009, 09:24:38 PM by IgorTekton »

Offline prissi

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Re: Buy land
« Reply #27 on: May 28, 2009, 09:34:01 PM »
Very good remarks.

Implementing another waytype which is only fence is trivial. But it would be identical to the current one, when using for instance maglev in pak64 ... it would still limit town growth an will prohibit crossing with anything.