Topic: 3.14 bugs

[Colin]

Hi James,
I missed out on 3.13, but 3.14 still has a few problems.

1. It's still laggy but not as bad.
2. I've just built a rail system from Timber Plantations to Saw Mills. The factory's are connected, but are not manufacturing anything. The Saw Mills obviously because they are not getting timber supplies. The train has the correct carriages, (there are only two types) but can't pick up because the TP's are not producing.

I haven't tried any other industries yet.

edit10amAEST

My apologies James, Problem No 2 was my fault. I had put passenger platforms instead of freight platforms. I've never done that before so I didn't realise that a freight train would not recognise a passenger platform. I always though a platform was a platform? If this is not so, how can a mail train stop at a passenger platform?

Regards

Colin

[knightly]

Hi Colin,

1. It's still laggy but not as bad.

I wonder if you can kindly compare the lagginess between v3.11 and v3.14 with the same save game -- that can help to identify the code that causes lagginess. In case you have lost v3.11, I have uploaded James' zip file for v3.11 Win GDI/SDL versions here. Thank you very much in advance and look forward to your further feedback!

[Colin]

Hi Colin,

I wonder if you can kindly compare the lagginess between v3.11 and v3.14 with the same save game -- that can help to identify the code that causes lagginess. In case you have lost v3.11, I have uploaded James' zip file for v3.11 Win GDI/SDL versions here. Thank you very much in advance and look forward to your further feedback!

 The first part is easy, 3.11 was taking approximately 5-7 Simu-Days to respond after an Auto Save, 3.14 is random but usually at the change of the month and is taking app 1-2 Simu-Days, and the game (my game) has progressed from 1948 to 1953, and from a profit of 35mil to a loss of 14mil, with all lines, Trains, Trams, Boats making a profit but not enough to pay the Operating and Maintenance cost. (Not that has anything to do with this problem. I'm just making a comment)
Sorry I wouldn't know how to start trying to identify the code.

[knightly]

Hi Colin,

Thank you very much for your swift response.

The first part is easy, 3.11 was taking approximately 5-7 Simu-Days to respond after an Auto Save,

Regarding Autosave, my code that refreshes the halts' connexions and paths will not be triggered during Autosave. They will only be triggered by actions like changing schedules, adding lines, adding convoys, etc. So I suspect there is a separate problem related to autosaving. James, do you have any idea about this?

3.14 is random but usually at the change of the month and is taking app 1-2 Simu-Days,

Actually, 1-2 days of lagginess during the start of every other month is expected with the current code, because all paths and all connexions become stale and need complete re-calculation. Also, when making changes to your transportation network, it will also cause all paths to become stale, and hence the impression of random lagginess. If the lags span 1 - 2 days, that is within expectation, at least.

Sorry I wouldn't know how to start trying to identify the code.

Maybe I have not expressed myself clearly, as I didn't ask you to identify the relevant part of code But with your report above, you have helpfully cleared my doubts as to the code I have added. As far as I can see, the performance of v3.14 is roughly the same as v3.11 , and I can focus on other parts of code to further resolve/alleviate the problem of lagginess.


BTW, can you kindly check one more thing for me? I would like to know how many frames per second (FPS) there are when you experience the lags. You can find the figure in main menu (options) -> Display -> 2nd last item. Please also state the current game speed (T=? in the lower right corner on the status bar) when you experience the lags. Thanks once again!

[jamespetts]

Colin,

thank you very much for trying 3.14 and for your feedback. Do you think that performance of this version is worse than previous versions of Simutrans-Experimental? If so, when is performance bad - every two months, at random intervals, or all the time?

As to your second question above, to allow railway stations to accept post,  you have to build a post office. In most paksets, post offices are in "special construction tools" (for some reason), although in some paksets, they might also be in railway tools.

Thank you again for trying 3.14 and for your feedback :-)

[Colin]

Hi Colin,


Regarding Autosave, my code that refreshes the halts' connexions and paths will not be triggered during Autosave. They will only be triggered by actions like changing schedules, adding lines, adding convoys, etc. So I suspect there is a separate problem related to autosaving. James, do you have any idea about this?

Well I suppose it's the end of the month really, I thought it may be the Auto Save because the end of the month corresponds to the Auto Save. But it is mainly the end of the month. With 3.14 I've noticed it happening at random times too, like say the 28th of the month. As I said, it's not anywhere near as bad as 3.11.

BTW, can you kindly check one more thing for me? I would like to know how many frames per second (FPS) there are when you experience the lags. You can find the figure in main menu (options) -> Display -> 2nd last item. Please also state the current game speed (T=? in the lower right corner on the status bar) when you experience the lags. Thanks once again!

25-28fps during the game dropping to 17-20fps when the month changes.

[Colin]

Colin,

thank you very much for trying 3.14 and for your feedback. Do you think that performance of this version is worse than previous versions of Simutrans-Experimental? If so, when is performance bad - every two months, at random intervals, or all the time?

3.14 would be 80%-90% better than 3.12 but probably worse than 3.8. This is purely for lag time, everything else seems fine up to now. As I said I missed 3.13 so I don't know what that was like, Reading your post on that, it may be just as well that I missed it.

Re the mail thingy, yes I understand that but I can't remember Simutrans-Standard ordinary freight transport trains not recognising passenger platforms. I will check this out tomorrow, It's 8.30am and I've had a hard day, so I'm off to noddy land. See you all tommorow.

Regards

Colin

[jamespetts]

Incidentally, to respond to Knightly's question, I am not aware of anything in autosave that would trigger rebuilding of paths/connexions; however, autosave itself is very time-consuming.

Nonetheless, at the beginning of every other month, there is a full recalculation of the paths, whether or not the schedules have been changed. This, too, can be time-consuming. The problem in 3.12 was that there was a bug in the code causing the recalculation to happen more than necessary - this should be fixed in 3.13 and later. More time-consuming calculation of paths is an inevitable part of having a more sophisticated way of calculating the paths; it is somewhat of a trade-off against the simpler but faster system in Simutrans-Standard.

The slow-downs on other occasions might be caused by AI players (if you have any) doing things to their network, causing the paths to need recalculating. However, it is particularly reassuring that you find this version faster than 3.12 (I assume that you mean 3.12 rather than 3.11, as it is with 3.12 that you reported problems with lag). Thank you very much for your testing, Colin - it is most worthwhile :-)

PS: Is 3.12 much worse than 3.8, or only slightly worse? And enjoy noddy land :-)

[Colin]

PS: Is 3.12 much worse than 3.8, or only slightly worse? And enjoy noddy land :-)

3.12 became impossible for me to play as the lag at month end became  5-7 Simu-Days. 3.14 is a vast improvement.

Shows how tired I was. I said "It's 8.30am" when I actually meant 8.30pm.

edit 7:12am AEST

I've now come across more problems.
1. The Increase City Size in Special Construction Tools has suddenly stopped working for no apparent reason.
2. I have just made a shipping route using a passenger liner (The large one) it is traveling at about half a tile per day, and that is with T=1.50. All freight ships seem to be ok. (I'm only using Oil Ships at the moment)
3. The Lag in the game is becoming more random. Please Note! I have everything else, (except WINXP) shut down. That includes all unnecessary processes, and the Internet (LAN) connection. Plus I have assigned High Priority to Simutrans.

[jamespetts]

Colin,

thank you very much again for your feedback - it is much appreciated :-) As to the individual points:

(1) I am afraid that I cannot reproduce this one - it works fine for me.
(2) Are you using the "Titanic" ship? That goes very slowly with me, too - the problem, I think, is the adjusted power/speed ratios for steam powered vehicles. At present, it applies to all steam powered vehicles, but I am wondering whether it would be more realistic if only applied to steam powered railway vehicles - does anyone have any thoughts on that?
(3) How much does the lag interfere with your ability to interact with the game?

Thank you again very much for all your helpful feedback :-)

[Colin]

Colin,

thank you very much again for your feedback - it is much appreciated :-) As to the individual points:

(1) I am afraid that I cannot reproduce this one - it works fine for me.
(2) Are you using the "Titanic" ship? That goes very slowly with me, too - the problem, I think, is the adjusted power/speed ratios for steam powered vehicles. At present, it applies to all steam powered vehicles, but I am wondering whether it would be more realistic if only applied to steam powered railway vehicles - does anyone have any thoughts on that?
(3) How much does the lag interfere with your ability to interact with the game?

Thank you again very much for all your helpful feedback :-)

1. This is a strange one indeed. It was working fine, and then it wasn't. I even deleted everything but the SVE files and reinstalled the whole thing and it still wouldn't work. I will try a new game and see if it's just this SVE that has a problem.
2. Yes I am using the 'Titanic' liner. I also noticed that the steam powered locos are very slow too. I compensated for this by increasing 'T' to T=150, but it doesn't work with the ship.
3. It's more frustrating than anything else. I can click on say for example a new Tram in the Tram Depot, nothing happens so I click and click again wait awhile and POW! I've got three trams. Or I rotate the map first 'shift r' nothing, second nothing, third and the map suddenly rotates three times.

I'll try that new game in a few minutes, hopefully I can get back to you ASAP.

Best Regards

Colin
Hi back again. This gets stranger and stranger, the Increase city button is working again, maybe something was corrupted in the old file and the rebuild has cured the problem. Fingers crossed.

The time lag waiting for the game to catch up to keyboard clicks is getting longer as I progress.

[jamespetts]

Colin,

thank you very much for your response. It might be better in future to discuss issues with performance on this thread to keep them all together for ease of reference: poor performance is not a "bug" as such.  I should be very grateful if you could head over to this thread and answer the same questions as I have asked Dante so that I can get an accurate idea of how to calibrate and assess the performance.

I am still not sure what to make of the issue with city resizing: I have not been able to reproduce it, and it does not relate to any code that I have changed in making Simutrans-Experimental. It might well be that this is a rare and intermittent bug from Simutrans-Standard. Especially since you have resolved your issue, I do not plan to take that issue any further at this stage, but it is useful to be aware of it.

Finally, on the subject of steam, steam railway locomotives have, in effect, a lower power output at lower speeds, as described here. That caused them to be slow to accelerate compared with diesel or electric locomotives of similar overall power, and also to be poorer at climbing gradients. This had a substantial impact on the history of railways, firstly in that railways in the days of steam were built taking more strenuous efforts to avoid gradients than would be prudent if diesel or electric traction was used (leading, for example, to less straight routes than would be desirable in modern times with faster, more powerful trains), and also was an important factor in the demise of steam (and it is no coincidence that steam was first replaced on local stopping trains where the improved acceleration of diesel or electric traction could make the most difference). To simulate that, I have also given steam powered vehicles in Simutrans-Experimental lower power at lower speeds: they will therefore give less than their rated power until they reach a certain speed. However, I am wondering whether this ought be restricted to steam railway vehicles, as the physics are a little different for steam road vehicles (which were inevitably driven through gears, rather than directly as with steam railway locomotives) and steam ships (which would drive a propeller or paddle which would turn freely in the water, the speed of the propeller or paddle shaft not having a fixed relationship with the speed of the boat itself). Your (and anyone else's) thoughts on that issue would be appreciated indeed.

[Colin]

NEW BUG:
The Locomotive BR234 (Diesel) wont run. It always says (Can't find a route) This is not pertaining to just 3.14, I think it has always been so in Experimental, but to be honest I haven't tried it in Standard. I will later today.

Edit: 07:25am AEST.

I've just tried it in Standard and it works fine. Could someone else try it in Experimental too?

Sorry James, I've just read your post which must have come in as I was typing the above edit.

[jamespetts]

Colin,

thank you for your feedback again :-) However, this is not a bug: the BR234 of Pak64 weighs 116 tonnes. Inexplicably, the weight limits on all the track in Pak64 is 110 tonnes, apart from the "sand track", which has a weight limit of 60 tonnes. If you have set the weight limits to be enforced strictly (rather than simply by making the vehicle slower), the BR234 cannot be used with any Pak64 track. If you have set the weight limits to reduce speed instead of prevent routing, however, then, because the BR234 is within 10% of the weight limit of all but the sand track, its speed reduction will only be by a third.