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Author Topic: ROADS REPLACEMENT PROJECT  (Read 92591 times)

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Offline Fabio

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Re: ROADS REPLACEMENT PROJECT
« Reply #105 on: September 15, 2010, 09:49:44 AM »

Overall work in progress: 64%


and few work done since.

The biggest part concerns now tunnels and earlier roads.

I hope it may take less, maybe for a Release Candidate for testing.

Offline Isaac Eiland-Hall

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Re: ROADS REPLACEMENT PROJECT
« Reply #106 on: September 16, 2010, 02:37:51 AM »
I'd gladly help test. :D

Offline greephus

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Re: ROADS REPLACEMENT PROJECT
« Reply #107 on: September 16, 2010, 09:33:31 AM »
me too if it is possible  :)

Offline tony.p

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Re: ROADS REPLACEMENT PROJECT
« Reply #108 on: October 17, 2010, 01:09:08 PM »
Hallo fabio. Your roads are very nice. How far are with production? A how long yet abortion work?

Offline greenling

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Re: ROADS REPLACEMENT PROJECT
« Reply #109 on: October 28, 2010, 03:16:37 PM »
fabio
I have be look on your picture from the new roads and Tunnels.
and must said thats you try too make good pakfiles.
here On tip for your development:
its the Development from the new Roads,tunnels,bridge and Elevated road
be closde then give your new pakfiles names they be not overwirte
old pakfiles.
new pakfiles make the simutransworld colorful and beautiful!

greenling

Offline Fabio

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Re: ROADS REPLACEMENT PROJECT
« Reply #110 on: November 15, 2010, 01:29:51 PM »
Finally, last weekend I resumed a bit the works.
Here's the statistics of the update:


Overall work in progress: 73%

Highways (110-200 km/h):  96%

Intercity (55-90 km/h):   50%

Urban (40-50 km/h):       64%

Rural (30 km/h):          80%

- 200 km/h: Road       (100%) + Bridge(100%)                + Elevated(100%)
- 130 km/h: Road       (100%) + Bridge(100%) + Tunnel (99%) + Elevated(100%)
- 110 km/h: Road        (90%) + Bridge (90%) + Tunnel (90%) + Elevated (90%)
-  90 km/h: Road       (100%) + Bridge (90%) + Tunnel (99%) + Elevated (50%)
-  70 km/h: Road        (80%) + Bridge (30%) + Tunnel  (0%)
-  55 km/h: Gravel Road  (0%) + Bridge  (0%)
-  50 km/h: City Road   (90%) + Bridge (90%) + Tunnel  (0%) + Elevated (90%)
-  40 km/h: Stone Road  (90%) + Bridge (90%) + Tunnel  (0%)
-  30 km/h: Dirt Road   (90%) + Bridge (70%)


130 km/h tunnel has been completely redrawn. Old tunnel will probably be used for 110 km/h.
Added elevated for 200 km/h; elevated for 90 km/h under work.
Discovered a previous version of 30 km/h bridge, almost done.
Gravel road speed will be raised to 55 km/h, for it not to be used as a city road.
I hope to release the pak for Christmas (painting time is still very few, I'm trying to make the most of it)



Offline Zeno

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Re: ROADS REPLACEMENT PROJECT
« Reply #111 on: November 15, 2010, 06:35:23 PM »
Wow, it slowly grows! It would be a perfect Xmas present for the pak :)
Priceless work, fabio! :award:

Offline Isaac Eiland-Hall

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Re: ROADS REPLACEMENT PROJECT
« Reply #112 on: November 15, 2010, 09:21:29 PM »
I refuse to make another post expressing my anticipated excitement.

Oh, wait, I guess I am after all. ;-)

Offline Lawyer

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Re: ROADS REPLACEMENT PROJECT
« Reply #113 on: November 16, 2010, 05:23:47 PM »
Wow! It looks great! I'm really excited to see it working. Good work, fabio!

Offline Fabio

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Re: ROADS REPLACEMENT PROJECT
« Reply #114 on: November 19, 2010, 02:36:47 PM »
No graphic updates from last post, but here I come with a comprehensive proposal for prices and maintainance.
I would ask the Game Economics experts (Zeno?) to validate them.

Speed |
Road Cost |
Road Maint. |
Bridge/Elev. Cost |
Bridge/Elev. Maint. |
Tunnel Cost |
Tunnel Maint. |
30 km/h |
12,00 Cr |
0,00 Cr |
320,00 Cr |
12,00 Cr |
55 km/h |
24,00 Cr |
1,00 Cr |
340,00 Cr |
16,00 Cr |
40 km/h |
45,00 Cr |
2,00 Cr |
380,00 Cr |
17,00 Cr |
850,00 Cr |
40,00 Cr |
50 km/h |
90,00 Cr |
4,00 Cr |
460,00 Cr |
19,00 Cr |
950,00 Cr |
42,00 Cr |
70 km/h |
170,00 Cr |
7,00 Cr |
600,00 Cr |
22,00 Cr |
1100,00 Cr |
45,00 Cr |
90 km/h |
290,00 Cr |
10,00 Cr |
810,00 Cr |
25,00 Cr |
1400,00 Cr |
48,00 Cr |
110 km/h |
460,00 Cr |
14,00 Cr |
1100,00 Cr |
29,00 Cr |
1800,00 Cr |
52,00 Cr |
130 km/h |
680,00 Cr |
17,00 Cr |
1500,00 Cr |
32,00 Cr |
2300,00 Cr |
55,00 Cr |
200 km/h |
1200,00 Cr |
24,00 Cr |
2400,00 Cr |
39,00 Cr |
These figures tend to reproduce the old ones for similar speed.
Here are the formulas used:

KR = ([1..9] / 4)^2   
    where [1..9] is the progressive number of the road, from lower to higher quality
   KR ranges from 0.0625 to 5.0625

Road_Cost = MAX(10, 40 * KR) + Speed * KR

Bridge_Cost = 300 + 1.75 * Road_Cost

Tunnel_Cost = 750 + 2.25 * Road_Cost

KM = (0.03 + (10 - [1..9]) / 100 ) / 2
    where [1..9] is the progressive number of the road, from lower to higher quality
   KR ranges from 0.06 to 0.02

Road_Maint = Road_Cost * KM
    Road_Maint is 0 for 30 km/h

Bridge_Maint = 0,05 * 300 + Road_Maint
    Road_Maint is 12 for 30 km/h (= Road Maint)
   
Tunnel_Maint = 0,05 * 750 + Road_Maint

Bridge and Tunnel costs increase less than proportionally compared to Road costs, having fixed costs of, respectively, 300 and 750 Cr.

Maintainance is relatively lower for better roads.

Here is the timeline (just as a reminder):



Offline Zeno

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Re: ROADS REPLACEMENT PROJECT
« Reply #115 on: November 19, 2010, 04:05:35 PM »
No graphic updates from last post, but here I come with a comprehensive proposal for prices and maintainance.
I would ask the Game Economics experts (Zeno?) to validate them.
Consider your budget approved ;)
Costs and maintenance for base roads fit perfect on current system edges, and gaps look like have good proportions. Moreover, the progression seems to be fairly logical, which I like even more than maths.
The only think I always wonder when thinking on price/mantainance costs is whether to apply or not exponential raising and which curve deepness should be used for each. I'll take a further look on that, but at the moment these numbers look very well.

Offline Fabio

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Re: ROADS REPLACEMENT PROJECT
« Reply #116 on: November 19, 2010, 04:15:47 PM »
Thank you, Zeno!

If it can help you, i attach here the Excel sheet with figures and calculations...

Offline Zeno

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Re: ROADS REPLACEMENT PROJECT
« Reply #117 on: November 19, 2010, 05:02:48 PM »
Fantastic! Thanks fabio :)

Offline Fabio

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Re: ROADS REPLACEMENT PROJECT
« Reply #118 on: November 19, 2010, 11:11:34 PM »
By the way, 40 km/h stone city road is intentionally more expensive than 55 km/h gravel road, in order to disincentivate the use of the former outside cities.

Offline sdog

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Re: ROADS REPLACEMENT PROJECT
« Reply #119 on: November 20, 2010, 12:18:23 AM »
i want to propose incresing the maintenance of the 30 km/h gravel road from 0 to any small value. Having no maintenance gives road transport quite an edge over rail, especially since the actualy driven speed has no influence on the speedboni.

Offline An_dz

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Re: ROADS REPLACEMENT PROJECT
« Reply #120 on: November 20, 2010, 12:42:43 AM »
I agree with sdog, in real life even if it's gravel you need to send trators to remove the holes rain create or stop the plants from 'invading' the road and also, sometimes, put more gravel. That's how works some gravel and dirt roads here in my country.

And by the way those roads are amazing.

Offline Zeno

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Re: ROADS REPLACEMENT PROJECT
« Reply #121 on: November 20, 2010, 12:45:34 PM »
I have similar opinion to you two, sdog & An_dz. Me no like zerp maintenance. I'll think about what to do about that, but I can advance I have two ideas to start with it: 1) fixed cost for all city roads, no matter speed or level 2) calculate city roads and normal roads in different process/sheet/scale/whatever (in other words, don't mix them).

Offline Lawyer

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Re: ROADS REPLACEMENT PROJECT
« Reply #122 on: November 20, 2010, 02:32:46 PM »
I agree that 30km road must have some maintenance. Same maint. cost for all city roads seems pretty unfair to me, too. I was wandering if maint. costs can be calculated grouping types of alike ways (dirty, gravel and cobblestone = type 1, asphalt 70km, 90km and 110km = type 2, concrete 130km and 200km, type 3), having same maint. costs to roads of the same type. Well, fabio's model is much better then this, but it's just an idea for a different process/sheet/scale/whatever =P

Offline Fabio

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Re: ROADS REPLACEMENT PROJECT
« Reply #123 on: November 22, 2010, 03:43:42 PM »
I just revised the proposal for prices and maintainance.

Speed |
Road Cost |
Road Maint. |
Bridge/Elev. Cost |
Bridge/Elev. Maint. |
Tunnel Cost |
Tunnel Maint. |
30 km/h |
15.00 Cr |
1.30 Cr |
430.00 Cr |
18.00 Cr |
|
|
55 km/h |
55.00 Cr |
4.60 Cr |
510.00 Cr |
16.00 Cr |
|
|
40 km/h |
80.00 Cr |
2.20 Cr |
560.00 Cr |
13.00 Cr |
1,000.00 Cr |
24.00 Cr |
50 km/h |
100.00 Cr |
2.80 Cr |
600.00 Cr |
11.00 Cr |
1,100.00 Cr |
19.00 Cr |
70 km/h |
140.00 Cr |
3.90 Cr |
680.00 Cr |
12.00 Cr |
1,200.00 Cr |
21.00 Cr |
90 km/h |
270.00 Cr |
7.50 Cr |
940.00 Cr |
16.00 Cr |
1,600.00 Cr |
24.00 Cr |
110 km/h |
440.00 Cr |
12.00 Cr |
1,300.00 Cr |
21.00 Cr |
2,100.00 Cr |
29.00 Cr |
130 km/h |
520.00 Cr |
14.00 Cr |
1,400.00 Cr |
23.00 Cr |
2,400.00 Cr |
31.00 Cr |
200 km/h |
800.00 Cr |
22.00 Cr |
2,000.00 Cr |
31.00 Cr |
|
|

The values are slightly revised (some higher, some lower) and can be further tweaked.
What changed is mostly in the LOGIC behind, a bit more coherent (less coefficients).

Here are the formulas used:

Kc = [1..8]
    This is to group roads by type, as proposed above.    
   1 is for 30 km/h dirt road
   2 is for 55 km/h gravel road
   4 is for 40 and 50 km/h city roads, and for 70 km/h intercity road
   6 is for 90 km/h intercity road
   8 is for 110, 130 and 200 km/h highways

Road_Cost = (Speed * Kc) / 2

Bridge_Base = 400

Bridge_Cost = Bridge_Base + (2 * Road_Cost)

Tunnel_Base = 800

Tunnel_Cost = Tunnel_Base + (3 * Road_Cost)

Maintainance was completely re-thought.
The basic idea is that in x months the total maintainance paid will sum up to the construction cost.
In other words, after x months of maintainance the infrastructure can be considered renewed.
We need to play with the number of months.

M1 = [12..36]
   This is the number of months needed to renew the road surface
   12 months for 30 km/h dirt road and 55 km/h gravel road: in one year the weather ruins the cheap infrastructure
   36 months for all the other road types: stone or asphalt need less maintainance

M2 = [24..48]
   This is the number of months needed to renew bridges and tunnels
   24 months for 30 km/h timber bridge
   36 months for 55 and 40 km/h stone bridges and 40 km/h tunnel
   48 months for all the other bridges (concrete) and tunnels
   
Road_Maint = Road_Cost / M1

Bridge_Maint = (Bridge_Base / M2) + Road_Maint
   
Tunnel_Maint = (Tunnel_Base / M2) + Road_Maint

Some newer type infrastructures have lower maintainance than older ones, making it convenient to replace them when newer are available.
Specially, 55 km/h gravel road is rather cheap, but quite expensive to maintain.

Here's a new timetable, with costs: it shows the cost gaps in time periods:



In attachment: the updated Excel sheet.

EDIT: Added a few brackets for readability
« Last Edit: November 22, 2010, 04:05:08 PM by fabio »

Offline Lawyer

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Re: ROADS REPLACEMENT PROJECT
« Reply #124 on: November 22, 2010, 03:59:50 PM »
Wow! Very, very cool! I liked pretty much the new way you build the maintenance costs. Great!

Offline 123abc

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Re: ROADS REPLACEMENT PROJECT
« Reply #125 on: January 18, 2011, 06:52:22 AM »
any update's?

Offline Fabio

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Re: ROADS REPLACEMENT PROJECT
« Reply #126 on: January 18, 2011, 04:36:18 PM »
I'm rethinking a bit tunnels layout, the rest is in an advanced stage...

Offline Václav

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Re: ROADS REPLACEMENT PROJECT
« Reply #127 on: January 18, 2011, 07:29:50 PM »
If you would need some ideas, you can find them on www.structurae.de.

Offline gauthier

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Re: ROADS REPLACEMENT PROJECT
« Reply #128 on: January 18, 2011, 08:47:16 PM »
Nice website (and translated in French ^^ )

Offline Fabio

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Re: ROADS REPLACEMENT PROJECT
« Reply #129 on: January 20, 2011, 02:17:24 PM »
Here's the statistics of the update:


Overall work in progress: 88%

Highways (110-200 km/h):  90%

Intercity (55-90 km/h):   79%

Urban (40-50 km/h):       93%

Rural (30 km/h):         100%

- 200 km/h: Road       (100%) + Bridge(100%)                + Elevated(100%)
- 130 km/h: Road       (100%) + Bridge(100%) + Tunnel (60%) + Elevated(100%)
- 110 km/h: Road        (90%) + Bridge (90%) + Tunnel (60%) + Elevated (90%)
-  90 km/h: Road       (100%) + Bridge (90%) + Tunnel (80%) + Elevated (60%)
-  70 km/h: Road       (100%) + Bridge (90%) + Tunnel  (0%)
-  55 km/h: Gravel Road(100%) + Bridge (90%)
-  50 km/h: City Road   (90%) + Bridge (90%) + Tunnel (90%) + Elevated (90%)
-  40 km/h: Stone Road (100%) + Bridge (90%) + Tunnel(100%)
-  30 km/h: Dirt Road  (100%) + Bridge(100%)


As said above, tunnels are intended to be reworked.
Bridges, instead, are either completed, either in a very advanced stage.
Unfortunately, painting time is extremely short, I couldn't keep the deadline of Christmas.
However, the work to do for a pre-release is few, now.
After the pre-release, I'll add winter version too, plus all the fixes from the feedback.

Offline Zeno

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Re: ROADS REPLACEMENT PROJECT
« Reply #130 on: January 20, 2011, 05:39:00 PM »
Oh, great news, fabio! We're looking forward beta-test it! ;)

Offline VS

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Re: ROADS REPLACEMENT PROJECT
« Reply #131 on: January 20, 2011, 06:13:35 PM »
/jumps on bandwagon

Offline 123abc

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Re: ROADS REPLACEMENT PROJECT
« Reply #132 on: February 08, 2011, 03:56:22 AM »
Any update's?

Offline Fabio

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Re: ROADS REPLACEMENT PROJECT
« Reply #133 on: February 17, 2011, 02:21:18 PM »
Any update's?

- Resumed work on tunnels

- Fixes to Bridges and elevated for 110-130-200 km/h

- Reworked turns for 200 km/h

Unfortunately I paint at home and browse the forum mostly at work or by smartphone, so I don't have screenshots.
After i'll have a RC version, i'll release it together with some screenshot.

Offline Václav

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Re: ROADS REPLACEMENT PROJECT
« Reply #134 on: February 17, 2011, 03:12:23 PM »
After i'll have a RC version, i'll release it together with some screenshot.
Finally.  :D
I hope it will be very soon.

Offline Fabio

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Re: ROADS REPLACEMENT PROJECT
« Reply #135 on: February 17, 2011, 03:21:36 PM »
Honestly, I hope it too! :)

I've been working on them for almost one year and the first stub is even older...
I can't wait to get away with it!!!


February 18, 2011

Actually, the first trials date back to September 2009. And with more experience, also part already done had to be reworked to get improved.

I want to share with you an accident occurred last night.
The XCF source file got corrupted from last save, so apparently I lost all the updates listed two posts ago. Gosh, I had a choke! Last backup was January, 29th! In the end, I recovered it all from the exported PNG i use to test the objects in game. I had to tweak the images a bit, in order to split everything in the appropriate layer, but now the source is back, backupped, and a little bit more has been done.

Offline Fabio

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Re: ROADS REPLACEMENT PROJECT
« Reply #136 on: March 07, 2011, 02:08:35 PM »
OK, good news on the topic :)

The summer version of all roads, bridges and tunnels is now in a pre-release status.

Still snow layer to be added, but I could say a test version should be made available soon-- together with some screenshots.

Offline Zeno

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Re: ROADS REPLACEMENT PROJECT
« Reply #137 on: March 07, 2011, 02:20:05 PM »
Superb news!! :drool:

Offline 123abc

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Re: ROADS REPLACEMENT PROJECT
« Reply #138 on: March 07, 2011, 07:35:03 PM »
Can I please test it for you?

Offline Václav

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Re: ROADS REPLACEMENT PROJECT
« Reply #139 on: March 07, 2011, 07:47:25 PM »
Splendid.