The International Simutrans Forum

 

Author Topic: Boats, barges and ships  (Read 94705 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline kierongreen

  • Dev Team, Coder/patcher
  • Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 2346
Re: Boats, barges and ships
« Reply #210 on: December 22, 2012, 11:08:44 PM »
CalMac Loch Class vessels have been built from the 1970s through to the present - while they have the same basic design with a ramp at each end they differ in size (the smallest taking 12 cars, the largest 36) and some details (whether passenger lounges are provided on both sides, just one, or on larger vessels above of the car deck). In the first instance I've chosen to use a batch of 4 vessels produced in the 1980s as a prototype - these take 203 passengers and 12 cars, a significant increase on that provided by Island Class vessels, slightly faster too, and also providing the convenience of not having to reverse vehicles onto the boat, while keeping a shallow draught and good maneuverability. I might produce other variants of the Loch Class later - but I don't want to end up duplicating similar sized and era vessels to the excellent ones already drawn by The Hood (and others!) :)

Also, just to show off some of the details I put into these models, I've got a comparison render of the Island Class at 12x that used in the game... pak1536 anyone?

Offline jamespetts

  • Simutrans-Extended project coordinator
  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 20720
  • Cake baker
    • Bridgewater-Brunel
  • Languages: EN
Re: Boats, barges and ships
« Reply #211 on: December 22, 2012, 11:28:11 PM »
Splendid!

Offline kierongreen

  • Dev Team, Coder/patcher
  • Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 2346
Re: Boats, barges and ships
« Reply #212 on: December 23, 2012, 11:43:33 PM »
Final boat in the small CalMac series - this is a "Super Loch" class vessel (prototype Loch Shira). With a vastly bigger capacity than the regular Loch Class vessels this boat can cope with all but the largest influx of holiday makers. Most of the extra capacity is actually in the form of vehicles (3x Loch Class), passengers capacity is only 250 vs 203 for Loch Class. I've got an idea of how to get this extra capacity into Simutrans but it's going to mean another (large) patch to the code :p
 
Screenshot shows Island, Super Loch and Loch Class boats compared to the Mersey Ferry already in the pak. I've also included a large render, because, well, because!
 
I might at some point make some of the larger CalMac ferries (ones designed for more open crossings of up to 6 hours and that are about half the size of cross channel ferries).
« Last Edit: December 23, 2012, 11:48:45 PM by kierongreen »

Offline jamespetts

  • Simutrans-Extended project coordinator
  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 20720
  • Cake baker
    • Bridgewater-Brunel
  • Languages: EN
Re: Boats, barges and ships
« Reply #213 on: December 24, 2012, 12:27:11 AM »
Excellent!

Offline greenling

  • Lounger
  • *
  • Posts: 1728
  • Simutransarchology it my hobby!
  • Languages: DE,EN
Re: Boats, barges and ships
« Reply #214 on: December 25, 2012, 10:59:56 PM »
kierongreen
the Ships are very nice.
thank you.

Offline The Hood

  • Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 2889
  • pak128.Britain developer
Re: Boats, barges and ships
« Reply #215 on: December 30, 2012, 08:16:23 PM »
Fantastic - great to have kierongreen artwork being added to the pak! I'm sure any longer distance CalMac ferries would be a great addition when you get the time. I'm intrigued about the coding change for accomodating car ferries...

Anyway, with these additions (and any arising out of jamespetts' canal overhaul) I think we have a pretty decent ship/boat set now - can anyone think of any major omissions? I may also be tempted to do an ocean liner set at some point, but I don't think they would be too useful in game (large, slow, v. long distance passenger anyone?). I'm officially crossing this off the to-do list now anyway - only took 3 years!!! :D

Offline jamespetts

  • Simutrans-Extended project coordinator
  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 20720
  • Cake baker
    • Bridgewater-Brunel
  • Languages: EN
Re: Boats, barges and ships
« Reply #216 on: December 30, 2012, 08:25:32 PM »
Do we not perhaps need more short distance (i.e., less than cross-channel distance) passenger ferries in the early and mid 20th century?

Offline The Hood

  • Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 2889
  • pak128.Britain developer
Re: Boats, barges and ships
« Reply #217 on: December 30, 2012, 09:47:18 PM »
Oh yes, there were a couple of shorter distance pax ferries (2 clyde and one IoW) still on my list I'd forgotten about covering 1901-1960s that should plug that gap, and two very low capacity lake/river boats.

Offline jamespetts

  • Simutrans-Extended project coordinator
  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 20720
  • Cake baker
    • Bridgewater-Brunel
  • Languages: EN
Re: Boats, barges and ships
« Reply #218 on: December 30, 2012, 09:50:54 PM »
Ahh - that should do it!

Offline jamespetts

  • Simutrans-Extended project coordinator
  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 20720
  • Cake baker
    • Bridgewater-Brunel
  • Languages: EN
Re: Boats, barges and ships
« Reply #219 on: January 03, 2013, 01:33:21 AM »
I am currently in the process of considering whether to try to fill in the river steamers timeline a little. However, I am struggling to find out exactly where the "Clyde Steamer" fits into all of this. Is this based on any particular ship? The only thing that I can see that matches the introduction date is the PS Eagple, but the appearance is different (large paddles, two funnels, different deck arrangement, lower in the water). No passenger capacity is given for that boat. May I ask - where did you get the passenger capacity information from for the Clyde Steamer?

Offline The Hood

  • Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 2889
  • pak128.Britain developer
Re: Boats, barges and ships
« Reply #220 on: January 03, 2013, 09:31:26 AM »
It's intended to be fairly generic, and I'm not really sure where the data was from. Druid drew this boat so perhaps he supplied the data too. I would point out that the type is intended to represent the sometimes sea-going services on the firth of clyde rather than out-and-out river steamers, so this type is also similar to the sorts of boats used on cross-channel and IoW runs for example. Bear in mind that the PS Waverley of 1947 is essentially the same design - it would be counterintuitive to draw many examples of essentially similar paddle steamers when they were so similar for so long. Smaller, riverine steamers could be added however.

Offline jamespetts

  • Simutrans-Extended project coordinator
  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 20720
  • Cake baker
    • Bridgewater-Brunel
  • Languages: EN
Re: Boats, barges and ships
« Reply #221 on: January 03, 2013, 12:15:42 PM »
Hmm, I wonder whether they really were that similar.

 Wikipedia lists the PS Waverly as having a capacity of 925 passengers and engines producing 1,566Kw. The King Alfred paddle steamer, a Thames river steamer of the lower Thames in London that I was considering adding was built in 1906 and had a capacity of 500. I cannot find capacity information for the original PS Eagle of the 1860s, but this source lists its engines as having 100 nhp (nominal horsepower). The PS Waverly's power was based on indicated horsepower, so the comparison may not be exact, but 100hp converts to 74.57Kw. Even if we reduce the PS Waverly's power by .7 to give an idea of its actual power, there is still the difference of 1,096Kw to 75Kw. The PS Royal Eagle is said to have had 3,000 hp - equating to 2,237Kw (or 1,565Kw if one takes the figure of 70% as being power after traction losses).

The PS Madge Wildfire built in 1886 had a capacity of 983; PS Lord of the Isles, built in 1877, had a capacity of over 1,000. The 1932 PS Royal Eagle, meanwhile, carried over 3,000 passengers on its London to Clacton and Southend runs (although that might be an overcrowded capacity, as this website gives its capacity as 1987).

The 1893 London Belle with triple expansion engines is listed as having a speed of 19-20 knots, whereas the 1910 PS Eagle III was capable of only 16.5 knots. The PS Royal Eagle was capable of 18.5 knots.



There seems to be a difference between, on the one hand, the large sea-going steamers that went from London to Southend, Margate or Clacton, and, on the other, smaller river ships that operated a service between about Richmond and Greenwich - out and out river steamers, as you might put it.

As to the former category, the above links show the progression of these coastal/river ferries to ever larger and more powerful engines and ever greater passenger capacities throughout the second half of the 19th and first half of the 20th centuries. As a coastal vessel, the Clyde Steamer is probably about right in capacity for the 1860s, but larger ships soon came along, it seems, and it seems worthwhile to represent that.

As to the true river steamers, those which in Experimental ought be forbidden from going to sea at all, the King Alfred paddle steamer (and the rest of the L. C. C. class from 1905 - see here for details) is an example of that, but there were earlier examples, too, of what were known as "penny steamers" from about the 1840s onwards, I think, according to Wikipedia (see the section on the City Steamboat Co.).

Here is a picture of a penny steamer from about 1896:

See also here for information on the PS Celia, a Thames steamer of the 1880s, similar to but perhaps a bit smaller than the L. C. C. steamers of 1905, although, sadly, capacity is not given.

According to this website, similar (but perhaps even smaller) boats were being built as early as 1866.

The costs of the two are quite different, too. Koh-i-Noor, a Thames coastal steamer intended to run from Tilbury to Margate and built in 1892 is reported to have cost £50,000, whereas the later 1905 King Alfred paddle steamer running a ferry service that never left London cost £6,000 (cost as in the link above).



Perhaps, then, we could do with a few river steamers and one or two more up to date, larger and (in Experimental) more comfortable coastal steamers with more powerful engines than the current 1864 model?

Offline The Hood

  • Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 2889
  • pak128.Britain developer
Re: Boats, barges and ships
« Reply #222 on: January 03, 2013, 02:48:42 PM »
In a word, yes. That's some pretty comprehensive research! If you would like to draw any of these that would be great. I'm a little shipped out at the minute and we now have a complete timeline so I was going to turn attentions elsewhere when I next get time to draw things.

Offline jamespetts

  • Simutrans-Extended project coordinator
  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 20720
  • Cake baker
    • Bridgewater-Brunel
  • Languages: EN
Re: Boats, barges and ships
« Reply #223 on: January 03, 2013, 03:19:03 PM »
I am looking into doing some of these at least. What was your research on the Isle of Wight ferries that you were planning to do?

Offline The Hood

  • Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 2889
  • pak128.Britain developer
Re: Boats, barges and ships
« Reply #224 on: January 03, 2013, 03:41:32 PM »
These are some of the ones I was thinking:

Turbine Steam Ship    1901    http://www.clydesite.co.uk/articles/turbines.asp
TS Queen Mary           1933    http://www.clydesite.co.uk/clydebuilt/viewship.asp?id=11562
MV Balmoral                1949    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MV_Balmoral

Offline jamespetts

  • Simutrans-Extended project coordinator
  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 20720
  • Cake baker
    • Bridgewater-Brunel
  • Languages: EN
Re: Boats, barges and ships
« Reply #225 on: January 03, 2013, 05:05:36 PM »
Thank you very much for those - will look into that.

I have started with some steam riverboats. I could not find an exact precedent for the early boats that plied their trade on the Thames in the 1840s, but I have adapted the wooden steam tug with what seems to be sensible effect. Unprocessed images are in this commit. Here is a sample:



I have also re-exported the graphics for the Mersey Ferry, which seems far too large compared with the other boats. Here it is at its new size:


Offline The Hood

  • Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 2889
  • pak128.Britain developer
Re: Boats, barges and ships
« Reply #226 on: January 03, 2013, 05:21:07 PM »
Looks good. I really wouldn't worry about exact historical precedents as long as it is broadly representative. After all very few players of the pak will be 1840s boat buffs!

Offline VS

  • Senior Plumber (Devotee)
  • Devotees (Inactive)
  • *
  • Posts: 4856
  • Vladimír Slávik
    • VS's Simutrans site
  • Languages: CS,EN
Re: Boats, barges and ships
« Reply #227 on: January 03, 2013, 06:57:48 PM »
Zeno already modelled the Balmoral, I believe...

Offline jamespetts

  • Simutrans-Extended project coordinator
  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 20720
  • Cake baker
    • Bridgewater-Brunel
  • Languages: EN
Re: Boats, barges and ships
« Reply #228 on: January 03, 2013, 07:05:31 PM »
Hmm, I wonder whether he has the .blend file somewhere that can be modified for the look of Pak128.Britain...?

Offline The Hood

  • Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 2889
  • pak128.Britain developer
Re: Boats, barges and ships
« Reply #229 on: January 03, 2013, 07:14:40 PM »
Looking on his blog here: http://simutrans-creations.blogspot.co.uk/search/label/ships there is a blender model. Zeno, if you're reading this, can we have it please? The two liners QE2 and Baltic could also be good additions.

EDIT: I should add that any of the pak128.Britain blends are of course free to adapt for pak128 style too. The blends aren't so detailed (except kierongreen's!), but I've not found that necessary at the scale they get rendered...
« Last Edit: January 03, 2013, 07:20:15 PM by The Hood »

Offline jamespetts

  • Simutrans-Extended project coordinator
  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 20720
  • Cake baker
    • Bridgewater-Brunel
  • Languages: EN
Re: Boats, barges and ships
« Reply #230 on: January 03, 2013, 07:22:44 PM »
EDIT: I should add that any of the pak128.Britain blends are of course free to adapt for pak128 style too. The blends aren't so detailed (except kierongreen's!), but I've not found that necessary at the scale they get rendered...

The same goes for any of mine.

Offline jamespetts

  • Simutrans-Extended project coordinator
  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 20720
  • Cake baker
    • Bridgewater-Brunel
  • Languages: EN
Re: Boats, barges and ships
« Reply #231 on: January 03, 2013, 08:08:50 PM »
I have now added unprocessed images for an iron river paddlesteamer of about 1866 to this commit, which looks like this:


Offline The Hood

  • Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 2889
  • pak128.Britain developer
Re: Boats, barges and ships
« Reply #232 on: January 03, 2013, 10:26:37 PM »
Nice!

Offline jamespetts

  • Simutrans-Extended project coordinator
  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 20720
  • Cake baker
    • Bridgewater-Brunel
  • Languages: EN
Re: Boats, barges and ships
« Reply #233 on: January 03, 2013, 11:31:25 PM »
And here is a 1880s version (larger, two decks) based on the PS Celia linked above:


Offline jamespetts

  • Simutrans-Extended project coordinator
  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 20720
  • Cake baker
    • Bridgewater-Brunel
  • Languages: EN
Re: Boats, barges and ships
« Reply #234 on: January 04, 2013, 11:26:03 AM »
Final boat in the small CalMac series - this is a "Super Loch" class vessel (prototype Loch Shira). With a vastly bigger capacity than the regular Loch Class vessels this boat can cope with all but the largest influx of holiday makers. Most of the extra capacity is actually in the form of vehicles (3x Loch Class), passengers capacity is only 250 vs 203 for Loch Class. I've got an idea of how to get this extra capacity into Simutrans but it's going to mean another (large) patch to the code :p
 
Screenshot shows Island, Super Loch and Loch Class boats compared to the Mersey Ferry already in the pak. I've also included a large render, because, well, because!
 
I might at some point make some of the larger CalMac ferries (ones designed for more open crossings of up to 6 hours and that are about half the size of cross channel ferries).

Hmm - I note the size comparison of these against the Mersey ferry. I had to reduce the scale of the Mersey ferry by nearly half to get it in proportion with the other boats. I am wondering now whether these need similarly to be rescaled, too.

Offline The Hood

  • Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 2889
  • pak128.Britain developer
Re: Boats, barges and ships
« Reply #235 on: January 04, 2013, 02:12:06 PM »
Scale is a problem with boats. I've not come up with a satisfactory scale. Basically we have to fit the largest boats (up to a few 100m) into a 224x224 tile, but on a linear scale this would make barges too small by comparison with buses and trains. I've therefore done everything by instinct, which no doubt means some inconsistencies. Maybe we need to formalise some kind of non-linear scale. Either way, I'd be reluctant about rescaling too much - the key should be what looks good in game.

Offline jamespetts

  • Simutrans-Extended project coordinator
  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 20720
  • Cake baker
    • Bridgewater-Brunel
  • Languages: EN
Re: Boats, barges and ships
« Reply #236 on: January 04, 2013, 02:16:31 PM »
Hmm - I think that it's best to have the boats in scale with other boats where possible. Certainly, I have made sure that my narrowboats are in scale with the barges, and used your barges as a template for barges. I know that the very large ships can't be in scale for that, but there should be as much consistency as possible. The Mersey ferry was quite a long way out of kilter with the rest.

Offline The Hood

  • Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 2889
  • pak128.Britain developer
Re: Boats, barges and ships
« Reply #237 on: January 04, 2013, 02:21:16 PM »
Yes I agree the Mersey Ferry was too big, and maybe the largest of kierongreen's calmacs may be too big by the same argument, but the others can't really go much smaller!

Offline jamespetts

  • Simutrans-Extended project coordinator
  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 20720
  • Cake baker
    • Bridgewater-Brunel
  • Languages: EN
Re: Boats, barges and ships
« Reply #238 on: January 04, 2013, 03:07:52 PM »
Perhaps we should say that at least boats of the same general size should be in proportion to each other?

Offline The Hood

  • Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 2889
  • pak128.Britain developer
Re: Boats, barges and ships
« Reply #239 on: January 04, 2013, 03:29:13 PM »
I think there should be some obvious progression of scale from small to large ships even if it isn't linear. Are there any other vessels you currently think are obviously the wrong size?

Offline jamespetts

  • Simutrans-Extended project coordinator
  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 20720
  • Cake baker
    • Bridgewater-Brunel
  • Languages: EN
Re: Boats, barges and ships
« Reply #240 on: January 04, 2013, 03:58:49 PM »
Not that I have spotted so far - obviously things like the Great Eastern are not to scale, but that can't be avoided.

Offline jamespetts

  • Simutrans-Extended project coordinator
  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 20720
  • Cake baker
    • Bridgewater-Brunel
  • Languages: EN
Re: Boats, barges and ships
« Reply #241 on: January 04, 2013, 06:53:51 PM »
In this commit, I add unprocessed images for the LCC Thames paddle steamer of 1905:



The graphics are largely based on a picture that I took in October 2011 of a model of such a boat displayed in the London Transport Museum.

I am, unfortunately, having some difficulties in filling the gap between this and the Mersey ferry, which is the next in the short distance large river motor ferry: the LCC service stopped after only two years because it was unprofitable, but a private company bought half the boats and continued a reduced service until the outbreak of the first world war. I cannot find much on Thames river boats between the wars, aside from pleasure cruisers and river trip boats of the upper Thames, upstream of Richmond, which were not used for serious transport, unlike these lower Thames ferries.

Can anyone suggest a vessel that might plug the timeline hole between 1905 and 1959, or will these paddle steamers have to be available up to the end of the 1950s?

Offline sdog

  • Devotee
  • *
  • Posts: 2052
Re: Boats, barges and ships
« Reply #242 on: January 04, 2013, 09:29:42 PM »
A small criticism, the sunroof at the aft of the steamer looks a bit like a spherical object. At first glance i mistook it for a balloon. Perhaps a little change of shading would help.

Another suggestion, the same sun-roof appears to be striped in the colour drawing. giving it a happy white and player colour stripes, with the sootstains typical of the aera could give it a bit of distinc character.

Offline greenling

  • Lounger
  • *
  • Posts: 1728
  • Simutransarchology it my hobby!
  • Languages: DE,EN
Re: Boats, barges and ships
« Reply #243 on: January 04, 2013, 10:56:44 PM »
Hello on all.
It very good the photo from the new ship.
Came those ships on Monday on the github and the svn?
Edit: A translating of the blend's in png files work at my Laptop not, blender have no Manuel in german

Offline kierongreen

  • Dev Team, Coder/patcher
  • Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 2346
Re: Boats, barges and ships
« Reply #244 on: January 05, 2013, 12:38:20 AM »
The scale I used was half that of trains. The Super Loch class is 55m long roughly, and fills most of a 128x128 tile. As The Hood has stated, boats like the Island Class cannot get much smaller being only a few pixels as they are. Having the render size proportional to the square root of the length, with 15m the scale of trains would give a maximum length of 250m or so for 224x224 images. This would be large enough for the biggest cross channel ferry (and medium sized cargo vessels) while keeping vessels down to 5m a reasonable size. sound ok?