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Author Topic: Boats, barges and ships  (Read 94702 times)

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Offline jamespetts

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Re: Boats, barges and ships
« Reply #280 on: January 06, 2013, 10:11:48 PM »
Thank you very much - very useful figures!

Offline kierongreen

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Re: Boats, barges and ships
« Reply #281 on: January 06, 2013, 10:24:32 PM »
No problem - it's worth noting that those estimated displacements will be when the vessel is at full capacity - if it's running empty displacement would probably be a bit less.

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Re: Boats, barges and ships
« Reply #282 on: January 07, 2013, 12:32:17 AM »
In this commit are the unprocessed images for the PS Chevalier, a larger iron steamship for coastal work from the 1860s. I cannot find an exact capacity for this, but it should probably take about 1.5x the passengers of the existing "Clyde steamer".


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Re: Boats, barges and ships
« Reply #283 on: January 07, 2013, 05:00:44 PM »
Taking a break from paddle steamers and starting on the first ship in The Hood's list, in this commit, I add unprocessed images for the TSS King Edward, the world's first turbine powered passenger ship:



I adapted the graphics for this from The Hood's TSS "The Queen" of 1903, a larger turbine ship based on King Edward. However, I notice that the orientation is different, with the boat running lengthways through the X rather than the Y axis, leaving the South image where the West image should be on the auto export (and so forth). I shall have to rename the files before processing them with Image Masker, or else alter the orientations in the .dat file.

I also notice that this seems to be out of scale with the existing Clyde steamer (on which I have based the scale of my paddle steamers), being about 0.7 the size by comparison (I have made the King Edward the same scale as The Queen). Further, I notice that, whilst the existing coastal steamers have both loaded and empty graphics, The Queen does not appear to have any loaded graphics showing passengers on deck. I have produced loaded and empty graphics for the King Edward, as I had with my paddle steamers, but wonder whether other boats without loaded graphics will now look wrong.

Edit: I have now re-exported having rotated the ship through -90 degrees on the Z axis, which fixes the orientation issue.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2013, 06:04:33 PM by jamespetts »

Offline jamespetts

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Re: Boats, barges and ships
« Reply #284 on: January 07, 2013, 07:48:48 PM »
I have now produced unprocessed graphics for the Tyne ferry in this commit, another one on The Hood's list, this time filling in a gap in the river passenger boat timeline.

I have based the boat on the tug barge - the hull is the same (and the same size), but I have added the cabin, etc. on the top. The tug barge is just slightly larger than the canal barge (which is 14ft across), which is about realistic for the barges hauled by tugs on the Thames. In this scale, the existing Thames river steamers seem to be the correct size.

Again, I have produced loaded and non-loaded images, although the difference between them for this particular boat is very small. Here is the loaded South facing image:


Offline greenling

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Re: Boats, barges and ships
« Reply #285 on: January 07, 2013, 10:01:36 PM »
That are Nice Ship.

Offline jamespetts

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Re: Boats, barges and ships
« Reply #286 on: January 08, 2013, 06:08:29 PM »
I think that we may have to use Kieron's suggested log scale - attempting to model the RMS Columba ends up with the thing being far too large for a tile if we do anything else.

Accordingly, I have rescaled all of my creations on this thread (aside from the Tyne ferry, which is based on the scale of the existing tug barges and therefore ought to be correct, PS Premier, which, when I checked it, was correct already, and the TSS King Edward, which is in scale with the SECR The Queen), plus PS Comet, PS Industry and the existing vessels called the "Clyde steamer", "Wooden paddle steamer" and "iron paddle steamer" as well as the Mersey ferry. I have not altered the scale of the canal boats as they are already too small to need their scales adjusting and are all in scale with the tug barges and original canal barges (which I took as being a wide beamed barge, which, again, is in the same scale as the tug barges and Thames sailing barges). In the case of the Mersey ferry, the iron paddle steamer and the wooden paddle steamer, I have added loaded graphics showing passengers on the deck.

I have not re-scaled boats in other series (such as the intercontinental, cross channel, modern riverboat or general ocean-going sailing vessel series) as I thought it better that, if these are to be re-scaled at all, they be done by The Hood; but I thought it worthwhile to have a comprehensive set of fully re-scaled vehicles in the series on which I am working.

Samples of the re-scaled graphics are below:

The "Clyde steamer":


The 1880s Thames river steamer:


The 1905 LCC Thames river steamer:


The 1860s Thames river steamer:


The "Iron paddle steamer":


The Mersey ferry:


PS Chevalier:


PS Comet:


PS Industry:


The 1840s Thames river steamers:


The "Wooden paddle steamer":

Offline greenling

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Re: Boats, barges and ships
« Reply #287 on: January 08, 2013, 06:12:18 PM »
That go very fast the ship building. :o :o

Offline jamespetts

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Re: Boats, barges and ships
« Reply #288 on: January 08, 2013, 06:18:13 PM »
Greenling, these are ones that I have made before (or, in some cases, that other people, such as The Hood, have made before), just rescaled. I am hoping to start on another steam ship very shortly, though, the RMS Columba.

Edit: Incidentally, I thought that it would be helpful for me to describe the precise scaling method that I use for future reference, and to ensure that I have understood Kieron correctly. Firstly, I take the square root of 15, which is 3.87 (to 2 decimal places). Then, I take a copy of the underframe of a BR Mk. I carriage, which I know is 19.35m. From that, I have produced a ruler which is sort of a see-saw shape, yellow in the centre, with red ends. I have scaled that to 15/19.35ths of the length of the original underframe, and therefore have a ruler of 15m, which I have stored as a .dae file and can import into any other Blender file.

If the vessel is 15m or below, I scale the ruler by a simple linear method: a 10m long boat, for example, would be 10/15ths of the length of the ruler. The ruler is scaled so that it is the correct length of the boat in the scale, then the scale of the boat is adjusted using the scale tool (without constraining to the X, Y or Z axes) until the bow and stern touch the vertically protruding parts of the ruler without poking through to the other side.

If the vessel is 15m or above, the same technique is used, except that, instead of scaling the vessel in direct proportion to the 15m ruler, I use the proportion of the square root, as Kieron suggested. So, for example, for a 44m long vessel (the Mersey ferry is this length) would be scaled in this way: take the square root of 44 (6.63) and divide it by the square root of 15 (3.87) to produce a scaling factor for the ruler - in this case 1.71. Scale the ruler by 1.71 on the Y axis (keystrokes: s, y, 1.71 after selecting the ruler and nothing else), and scale the ship to the ruler size as above.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2013, 06:27:21 PM by jamespetts »

Offline jamespetts

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Re: Boats, barges and ships
« Reply #289 on: January 09, 2013, 01:02:52 AM »
I have now completed unprocessed images for the RMS Columba, the first of the Clyde steamers built with steel, and the first to carry an onboard post office (hence "RM" for "Royal Mail"):



Introduced in 1878, she was the most luxurious Clyde steamer of her day, having onboard dining facilities and being fitted out to a very high standard. Luxurious as she was, she can't have been very safe, as, for a ship with a capacity of over 2,000 people, contemporary photographs appear to show only one lifeboat!

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Re: Boats, barges and ships
« Reply #290 on: January 09, 2013, 11:52:42 AM »
I have now re-scaled the TSS King Edward according to the logarithmic scale, and also corrected its relative dimensions, as it was narrower compared to its length than I had previously depicted. Here is the ship as it now stands:


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Re: Boats, barges and ships
« Reply #291 on: January 09, 2013, 03:23:05 PM »
I have now completed the graphics for the TSS Queen Mary, a turbine powered Clyde Steamer from 1933, which was after its retirement until 2009 used as a floating restaurant on the Victoria Embankment in London. This is one of the ships on The Hood's list. It is larger, slightly faster and carries more passengers than its 1901 predecessor.


Offline kierongreen

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Re: Boats, barges and ships
« Reply #292 on: January 09, 2013, 08:49:14 PM »
Looks good - yes 1.71 scale factor for length 44 is correct with 15m as the base scale :)

Offline The Hood

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Re: Boats, barges and ships
« Reply #293 on: January 10, 2013, 12:19:29 PM »
So to summarise the new scale - am I right in thinking <15m means linear scaling and >15m means proportional to square root; relative to a 15m object which has the same length as a 15m rail carriage on the rail scale?

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Re: Boats, barges and ships
« Reply #294 on: January 10, 2013, 01:53:15 PM »
I have now produced unprocessed images for the PS Waverly of 1899, the first paddle steamer on the Clyde to use compound engines. This vessel was lost during the Dunkirk evacuations of 1940, and it was its replacement (of the same name) that was the last sea-going paddle steamer ever built, and that still operates cruises around the country. My grandmother tells me that she remembers travelling on the Waverly in her youth in the 1930s (and possibly late 1920s) between Mumbles in South Wales and Ilfracombe in North Devon. Apprently, these ships had a bar on board and also had people selling small snacks, so in Experimental, they ought to have a catering level of 1 or 2.



I have produced the Waverly as it appeared after the first world war with the plating on the deck continued to the very front, as this is intended to represent a wide range of latter day paddle steamers.



As to the scaling, I had interpreted Kieron's suggestion in the same way as The Hood - I hope that that is correct.



A note, incidentally, on liners. Although these were generally pressed into service on very long distance runs between British ports and North America and further afield, they are potentially useful in the game whenever the expected journey time exceeds 24 hours, as their distinguishing feature is that they would have overnight accommodation for the passengers. This can be represented, in Experimental at least, by having a very high comfort level, calibrated for >24 hours.

To get an idea of the distances that would involve a 24 hour journey in Experimental, the RMS Oceanic of 1899 had a speed of 19 knots - that is 35km/h. 24 * 35 = 840km. Any sea voyage of more than 840km would therefore yield a travel time of 24 hours. At 250m/tile, this is 3,360 tiles - at 125m/tile, this is 6,720 tiles. A 1024x9600 map, for example, is permissible within the map size constraints of Simutrans. If we can have enough of that area to be ocean to prevent the computers running the game being overwhelmed by infrastructure and vehicles (which takes by far the more processing power and memory than empty map tiles), we can usefully simulate long sea voyages (and, for that matter, long-ish haul air travel) in Experimental even at 125m/tile.

We can have the coastal steamers being comfort rated for short daytime journeys of one or two hours, the channel ships being rated for longer daytime journeys of four to six hours (not all of them would have been used on the short Dover to Calais route, after all - many would have been used on the much longer Newhaven to Dieppe route, and so forth), and the liners rated for journeys of over 24 hours.

Offline greenling

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Re: Boats, barges and ships
« Reply #295 on: January 10, 2013, 04:57:23 PM »
Jamespetts
The last ships are nice. :thumbsup:

Offline jamespetts

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Re: Boats, barges and ships
« Reply #296 on: January 10, 2013, 04:58:23 PM »
Greenling - thank you.

A new addition:



This is the PS Madge Wildfire, a paddle steamer from 1886. This is intended to replace the earlier, smaller paddle steamers with something a little more up to date and efficient.

Offline Bear789

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Re: Boats, barges and ships
« Reply #297 on: January 10, 2013, 06:13:01 PM »
I can't find anything in the topic... there are no more big sail ships like the East Indiaman or the Blackwell Frigate or the Clipper in the latest nightly (r1135). Is that right?

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Re: Boats, barges and ships
« Reply #298 on: January 10, 2013, 06:23:52 PM »
Yes, that's right - large sailing ships weren't added on this occasion. Do you think that any particular large sailing ship types are missing from the pakset?

Offline Bear789

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Re: Boats, barges and ships
« Reply #299 on: January 10, 2013, 06:29:18 PM »
Not per se, it's just that in my old savegame I used all those, so all my freight sea routes failed when I loaded the savegame with the new pak version. I think I'll either revert back to an older version or replace all the ships on those lines with what's available.
Is there any plan to re-add them? Given the amount of cargo I'm moving via ships, there is a need for early cargo ships with big capacity.

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Re: Boats, barges and ships
« Reply #300 on: January 10, 2013, 07:20:01 PM »
Ahh, I see - this is a separate issue. The old ships are still there, but they are now defined differently because of the new hull/hold system (discussed in page 4, I believe, of this thread). It seems that compat.tab cannot have been defined correctly to deal with this with your old saved game.

Offline Bear789

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Re: Boats, barges and ships
« Reply #301 on: January 10, 2013, 08:09:14 PM »
I know what happened to my existing ships, it already happened to me in the past when there was some major change in the pakset I was usinng and I skipped some updates.
However, there is no new version of those ships or any equivalent in the shipyards even in a new game; it means that they aren't in the pakset.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2013, 08:21:32 PM by Bear789 »

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Re: Boats, barges and ships
« Reply #302 on: January 10, 2013, 09:04:02 PM »
There is a new version of them - it is just that, instead of having, for example, "Blackwall Frigate - piece goods" and "Blackwall Frigage - bulk goods" there is a new generic "Blackwall Frigate", and a "bulk goods hold" and "piece goods hold" (etc.) to go with it. The generic "Blackwall Frigate" is not the same object as far as Simutrans is concerned as the original "Blackwall Frigate - piece goods" (etc.), so it will behave as if the objects have been removed.

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Re: Boats, barges and ships
« Reply #303 on: January 10, 2013, 09:36:17 PM »
I have now completed the unprocessed images for the MV Lochfyne, which, when launched in 1931, was Britain's first diesel-electric powered ship. Used on Scottish island services, she was reportedly half as expensive to run as her steam powered compatriots, but her early engines caused great vibrations in the ship that made passengers less comfortable than they might have been.




Edit:

I have now processed all of the boats images, and added them for now to an "Awaiting dat files" subfolder of the "images" subfolder of the boats folder in the Github repository here.

For reference, below are all of the sea-going and river vessels that I have added or modified to date (canal boats are in their own thread):

Click the image to see it in full size


The Clyde Steamer - modified from the original graphic to re-scale and add a loaded image


A river steamer from the 1880s


The London County Council's river steamer from 1905.


An iron hulled river steamer from the 1860s


The current "Iron paddle steamer" - rescaled and with the addition of a loaded image


The current Mersey ferry - rescaled and with the addition of a loaded image


A diesel coastal ferry from 1931, based on the MV Lochfyne


A larger iron hulled coastal paddle steamer from 1866, based on PS Chevalier


The current PS Comet, rescaled and with a loaded image


The current PS Industry


A steel hulled coastal paddle steamer from 1886, based on the PS Madge Wildfire (later PS Isle of Skye)


An iron hulled coastal paddle steamer from the 1840s with open decks, based on the PS Premier


A steel hulled paddle steamer from 1899, based on the PS Waverly, the first paddle steamer on the Clyde to be fitted with (more powerful and efficient) compound engines.


A steel hulled luxury paddle steamer from 1878, based on the RMS Columba, the first such vessel to be made of steel, and the most luxurious of her time.


A turbine coastal steamer of 1901, based on the TSS King Edward, the first turbine powered passenger steamer in Britain.


A later turbine coastal steamer of 1933 with, based on the TSS Queen Mary II, which was until recently a floating restaurant in London and is currently awaiting possible restoration.


The Tyne ferry - a small diesel powered river ferry from 1940.


A wooden hulled river steamer from the 1840s.


The existing "Wooden paddle steamer", rescaled and with an added loaded image.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2013, 12:04:42 AM by jamespetts »

Offline Bear789

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Re: Boats, barges and ships
« Reply #304 on: January 10, 2013, 11:44:03 PM »
There is a new version of them - it is just that, instead of having, for example, "Blackwall Frigate - piece goods" and "Blackwall Frigage - bulk goods" there is a new generic "Blackwall Frigate", and a "bulk goods hold" and "piece goods hold" (etc.) to go with it. The generic "Blackwall Frigate" is not the same object as far as Simutrans is concerned as the original "Blackwall Frigate - piece goods" (etc.), so it will behave as if the objects have been removed.

Nope, there aren't.
There are only two general hulls in 1860, Brig and Schooner. Funny enough, there are holds for the Frigate and the Clipper, but no hulls for them.
This is how the shipyard window looks like:




Offline jamespetts

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Re: Boats, barges and ships
« Reply #305 on: January 11, 2013, 12:01:51 AM »
Hmm - if that is so, it was not intended. Perhaps there was an error in compiling the latest version of the pakset for Standard...?

Offline greenling

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Re: Boats, barges and ships
« Reply #306 on: January 11, 2013, 01:43:44 PM »
Hello Jamespetts & Bear789
Here have Wernieman be sleep,he have not be ask Jamespetts after changes in the Pakset.

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Re: Boats, barges and ships
« Reply #307 on: January 12, 2013, 11:24:20 PM »
Thanks to Zeno, I have now produced graphics (by adapting Zeno's .blender file to fit Pak128.Britain style) for the MV Balmoral:



I have tried to do the same thing with the Queen Elizabeth II liner, but have run into some difficulties with the scale. Using the square root scale, I end up having to re-scale the 15m ruler in the y dimension by 4.43. This makes it far too long to fit even onto the size of the 224x224 image produced when I use the Great Eastern's .blend file as a template.

Ought I be scaling the ruler again by 128/224ths to compensate for using a 224x224 graphic?

Offline The Hood

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Re: Boats, barges and ships
« Reply #308 on: January 13, 2013, 09:36:58 AM »
Yes - thanks again Zeno. Good not to duplicate work. Of course pak128 team are welcome to adapt any of our objects (especially the ships as most sets are short on these) at any time.

@jamespetts: You would need to rescale again to compensate for the fact that the render is more detailed, presumably by 128/224 but it's a bit early in the morning for my head to be functioning yet!

The only difference between a 224x224 and 128x128 blend file is the setting on the camera: the blend objects are not scaled bigger in the 224 version.

Offline kierongreen

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Re: Boats, barges and ships
« Reply #309 on: January 20, 2013, 12:21:08 AM »
Here's updated pngs, dats and paks for CalMac ships to fit the new scale (Island a lot bigger, Loch a little bigger, Super Loch a little smaller). Source blends can be found here.

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Re: Boats, barges and ships
« Reply #310 on: January 20, 2013, 12:28:31 AM »
Ahh, splendid! The smaller ships look better like that, I think.

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Re: Boats, barges and ships
« Reply #311 on: January 20, 2013, 08:17:24 AM »
The new Ships are nice.

Offline The Hood

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Re: Boats, barges and ships
« Reply #312 on: February 11, 2013, 10:08:00 PM »
@jamespetts - can I check where you are up to (a) with coding the new ships as dat files and (b) rescaling images? With regard to the rescaling, I need to know which, if any, out of the ships I did to rescale. I'm hoping to get these ready over the next few weeks for a new release.

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Re: Boats, barges and ships
« Reply #313 on: February 12, 2013, 12:09:29 AM »
I was rather hoping that TygerFish would deal with the .dat writing for these and the canal boats, but, alas, he seems to have disappeared, which rather seriously sets back the canal/ship project. I am rather waylayed with a number of coding projects at present. The relevant statistics are contained in the .xls file, which is on my .blend file Github repository if you would like to do them yourself. Otherwise, I shall catch up to this task eventually, but it is hard to predict when, I am afraid.

As to rescaling the images, all of the images that I have posted in this thread are rescaled. I rescaled everything in the coastal steamers series and river boats series, but not any of the other series. I hope that this clarifies things - sorry that things had not progressed as intended.

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Re: Boats, barges and ships
« Reply #314 on: February 13, 2013, 10:04:53 PM »
Thanks for the update. I will start rescaling my own images which you haven't done and then I will look into coding the new graphics (for standard at least), balancing them and putting together a new release along with the latest bridges and elevated ways.