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Author Topic: Pak128 prices list  (Read 14550 times)

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Offline fabio85

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Pak128 prices list
« on: October 19, 2009, 08:53:50 PM »
Hi! I'm playing Simutrans with pak128 and I have noticed one important thing: prices list is changed than pak64 and values are 1/3 than pak96! Before passangers payed 0,15c per tiles, now 0,05c and it's impossible to be in profit with infrastructures maintenance costs! It's possible to increase prices?

Thank you

Offline VS

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Re: Pak128 prices list
« Reply #1 on: October 19, 2009, 09:26:42 PM »
The price is good. Did you look at other numbers, eg. running cost of vehicles?

Offline fabio85

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Re: Pak128 prices list
« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2009, 08:43:59 AM »
Yes, but or prices are too low or running costs are too high! For example: I have a coil powerplant and near a coil mine and I want to transport coil from the second to the first... I have to build a road and, if I want to use a truck that can run at 65km/h, I will use a 65km/h max road to save maintenance costs. Then I buy some trucks and I create a new line for them. After some time I can see that the line has a positive budget, but too low to cover maintenance costs!!! I'm considering a mine relatively near to powerplant, if mine is too far from powerplant I know that I will have a negative budget because trucks will be empty in a too long return travel!
I tried with a train (more realistic than an infinite number of trucks) and things are similar: the line has a positive budget but stations have elevate maintenance costs (using low railways (coil has not a speed bonus) and 10 stations with 64 of capacity)!
So, what can I do? Can you explain me, for example, what to do with a powerplant and one or more mines near it?

Thank you for the help!

Offline Combuijs

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Re: Pak128 prices list
« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2009, 08:55:55 AM »
Quote
I'm considering a mine relatively near to powerplant, if mine is too far from powerplant I know that I will have a negative budget because trucks will be empty in a too long return travel!

Distance from powerplant does not matter as long as both routes are equally direct. It can only strengthen the tendencies, e.g. you earn more money or you loose more money.

In which year are you playing? I usually play from 1980 on and I don't have the problems you have. Are you in an earlier period?

Offline DirrrtyDirk

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Re: Pak128 prices list
« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2009, 10:30:47 AM »
Hi! I'm playing Simutrans with pak128 and I have noticed one important thing: prices list is changed than pak64 and values are 1/3 than pak96!

Well, different pak sets can have different prices. And they are all more or less internally balanced - and each pak set does that differently. So if passengers pay less in pak128 than in other pak sets, it is very likely that maintenance costs are also lower than in other pak sets. And some paksets are simply designed to be easier or harder to play... so just comparing one number between different paksets is useless.

Before passangers payed 0,15c per tiles, now 0,05c and it's impossible to be in profit with infrastructures maintenance costs!

Before? Pak128 has had 0.05 as passenger rate for years now (checked with my old 88.10.5 version and it was 0.05 already) - and it always worked. And I wouldn't say that it is "impossible" - so far you are the only one complaining... so my guess is that others actually manage to generate some profits.

But if you want us to look deeper into this, please tell us what version of simutrans (and pak128) do you play? In what year? Timeline on or off?

Oh and please: it's either coal or oil - coil is not something that gets burned in powerplants.  ;)

Offline fabio85

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Re: Pak128 prices list
« Reply #5 on: October 20, 2009, 12:27:59 PM »
Quote
Before passangers payed 0,15c per tiles, now 0,05c and it's impossible to be in profit with infrastructures maintenance costs!

Before? Pak128 has had 0.05 as passenger rate for years now (checked with my old 88.10.5 version and it was 0.05 already) - and it always worked. And I wouldn't say that it is "impossible" - so far you are the only one complaining... so my guess is that others actually manage to generate some profits.
I'm comparing pak64 and pak128, so before is referred to pak64.

Quote
In which year are you playing? I usually play from 1980 on and I don't have the problems you have. Are you in an earlier period?
I have the latest version of pak128 and simutrans and I'm playing from 1960 with timeline activated! This evening I will try 1980...
But, just to answer to my question, what would you do with a powerplant and one or two coal mines (thank you Dirk ;)) near it?

Offline Combuijs

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Re: Pak128 prices list
« Reply #6 on: October 20, 2009, 01:03:23 PM »
Quote
what would you do with a powerplant and one or two coal mines

I would build 3 train stations of each six tiles, connect the two coal mine stations as straight as possible with the powerplant with single track (<=160km/h) (no electricity, diesel). Set up two trains (1 depot!, maybe destroy it afterwards to minimise maintainance) with loc + 11 bulk good wagons. I think I've used the Delta loc in the 60's, but I'm not sure if it's already there in 1960. Set wait for 100% in the coal mine stations. I expect these trains to have rather long waiting times, if that's the case, make a power connection from the powerplant to one or both mines.


Offline Spike

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Re: Pak128 prices list
« Reply #7 on: October 20, 2009, 01:32:53 PM »
I'm comparing pak64 and pak128, so before is referred to pak64.

Pak128 isn't just pak64 with bigger images. You're comparing apples and pears, both are fruit, both are good, both are different.

Offline DirrrtyDirk

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Re: Pak128 prices list
« Reply #8 on: October 20, 2009, 03:29:48 PM »
I'm comparing pak64 and pak128, so before is referred to pak64.

Like Hajo said: these paksets are completely different and cannot be compared that way.


I have the latest version of pak128 and simutrans and I'm playing from 1960 with timeline activated! This evening I will try 1980...

There we go again: "the latest"  :::). You wouldn't believe how many people have claimed that in the past - and were wrong. Please, always state the version numbers when asked about that. Now we don't even know if you meant "the latest" nightly or "the latest" release version (for both simutrans and pak128).



EDIT:
I just did a little test with 102.2 (release) and pak128 r718 in 1960, with timeline on. And you are right, fabio: the train didn't earn enough for tracks and stations (all of the cheapest kind) - even without its own running costs. But the train wasn't actually moving very often, as the production rate of the coal mine was too low (and all other on that map had the same: 300t) that this single, 5-tile 1960's train had to wait very long until it was filled up again. There were simply not enough trips per month (or year) to earn the necessary money. However, when I used the map editor and replaced the coal mine with a new one, producing 800t instead of 300t, the train travelled more often and hence made net profit easily (not terribly much but at least 15k per year). So maybe it's not the prices but production rates that don't work properly any more...? Certainly something Zeno and VS should take a look at some day.

EDIT: Original rate was about 220t, not 300 - and it varies over the map (I had looked at the wrong numbers)
« Last Edit: October 20, 2009, 08:57:23 PM by DirrrtyDirk »

Offline fabio85

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Re: Pak128 prices list
« Reply #9 on: October 20, 2009, 05:35:43 PM »
Simutrans version 102
Pak128 version: 1.4.5

I tried to connect coal mines to powerplant with a train: with one Rvg D22 (maintenance 2,08c and 2420KW), 11 Rvg Bulk wagons (0,18c), low quality track (0,8c) and three stations of six tiles I was in negative of 1406c in a year. Low quality track has the problem that it can't resist to that heavy train, so max speed is set to 21km/h. With a concrete sleeper track train is faster, but I am in negative too! Adding a powerline things aren't better because powerline's maintenance is higher than increase of revenue!

Quote
I just did a little test with 102.2 (release) and pak128 r718 in 1960, with timeline on. And you are right, fabio: the train didn't earn enough for tracks and stations (all of the cheapest kind) - even without its own running costs. But the train wasn't actually moving very often, as the production rate of the coal mine was so low (and all other on that map had the same: 300t) that this single, 5-tile 1960's train had to wait very long until it was filled up again. There were simply not enough trips per month (or year) to earn the necessary money. However, when I used the map editor and replaced the coal mine with a new one, producing 800t instead of 300t, the train travelled more often and hence made net profit easily (not terribly much but at least 15k per year). So maybe it's not the prices but production rates that don't work properly any more...? Certainly something Zeno and VS should take a look at some day.

I noticed it: trains wait a long time in mines stations because it is empty... With an higher production I will exploit my railways and trains better than now!

Offline DirrrtyDirk

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Re: Pak128 prices list
« Reply #10 on: October 20, 2009, 06:13:22 PM »
Simutrans version 102
*sigh* 102.0 or 102.1 or 102.2 ...? Please don't make me beg you for every single piece of information. My patience has limits.

I tried to connect coal mines to powerplant with a train: with one Rvg D22 (maintenance 2,08c and 2420KW), 11 Rvg Bulk wagons (0,18c), low quality track (0,8c) and three stations of six tiles I was in negative of 1406c in a year.
That loco is available from 1973 - I thought we were talking about the early 60's?

Low quality track has the problem that it can't resist to that heavy train, so max speed is set to 21km/h. With a concrete sleeper track train is faster, but I am in negative too! Adding a powerline things aren't better because powerline's maintenance is higher than increase of revenue!
That's... rather unlikely. AFAIK weight limits aren't yet supported in simutrans standard - so the tracks only have a simple maximum speed - regardless of weight. Anyway, I created the same train you describe (same loco, same cars, same length) and even with 100% load of coal (=330t) it was able to reach the slow tracks' max. speed of 65km/h (and on 110km/h tracks the train even reached its own maximum of 80km/h). So I don't know what you're talking about with 21 km/h here...

Offline fabio85

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Re: Pak128 prices list
« Reply #11 on: October 20, 2009, 07:23:17 PM »
I have Simutrans 102.0-1 (102 Nightly)(taken from Debian packages)(if I write 102 is because I have 102.0 version of a software...) and Simutrans 102.1 Experimental 6.8. I have used 102.0 till sunday because I have found this problem and now I am trying the Experimental version hoping to avoid this problem, but is a pak128 issue... Sorry but I made the experiment on Experimental version, this is because I have a load limit on railways...

Quote
I have the latest version of pak128 and simutrans and I'm playing from 1960 with timeline activated! This evening I will try 1980...
That's because I have that train...
« Last Edit: October 20, 2009, 07:30:36 PM by fabio85 »

Offline DirrrtyDirk

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Re: Pak128 prices list
« Reply #12 on: October 20, 2009, 08:55:13 PM »
Well, pak128 is currently not balanced for simutrans experimental, only for simutrans standard. So if you want to talk about pak128 balancing, you can only use simutrans standard as reference. Anything else will really mix up results.

The train you described is actually able to earn net profits - when the production rate of the coal mine is high enough (I mixed up some numbers earlier myself, sorry.) Of course bringing electricity from the power plant back to the mine already enhances its production rate, so that helps production rate a little - but not quite enough in my test game. (And the powerlines appear to earn their own costs and some more in my game - additional to make the train able to travel more often.) But still production level was not high enough to have this train going often enough to earn the infrastructural costs.

So some tweaking either of production rates or maintenance cost (or whatever else) seems to be something that needs to be reviewed.

Offline fabio85

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Re: Pak128 prices list
« Reply #13 on: October 20, 2009, 09:41:04 PM »
So the actual workaround can be to substitute coal mines with other more powerful... and use standard Simutrans instead Experimental: it has less rules than this last. The problem seems to be only for coal mines: one powerplant needs 5-6 coal mines, one refinery or oil-powerplant only 2 sources because oilfield are set to 700-800 units/month and coal mines to 180-250 units/month only!

Offline DirrrtyDirk

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Re: Pak128 prices list
« Reply #14 on: October 20, 2009, 09:43:59 PM »
Yep, and (like oil) coal is not only used in powerplants but also in other industries (e.g. steel, cement) so I guess a higher rate would not be that bad (just like oil, too)...

But let's wait for the pak maintainer and/or the balancing expert to say something on this matter.

Offline Zeno

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Re: Pak128 prices list
« Reply #15 on: October 21, 2009, 06:27:12 AM »
Raw materials (coal, oil, wood,...) transportation is balanced to have low profit ratings. That's a truth, as far as they have no speed bonus and low production ratios in their respective mines/factories. So, if you want to get some profit by transporting these goods, use a low speed (and low RC) loco over low speed tracks.

This pak was balanced using the Simutrans Standard version, so don't expect to have same results for Experimental or other versions. So, f.i. weight limits on track will break balancing on your game, as well as other Experimental's features may also do (I'm sorry I never tried Experimental version, so I can't give my oppinion there).

About raw matierials transporting, I always try to get profit from these kind of transportation in very early stages of game (around 1930 or 1940), and I usually use the cheapest locos, tracks and stations. It always works for me: I get a *low* but *sure* income source.

Anyway, if you expect to become rich just go straight to passenger transport.

Offline DirrrtyDirk

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Re: Pak128 prices list
« Reply #16 on: October 21, 2009, 07:45:32 PM »
I disagree with parts of this statement.

The problem is that just a little later in the game (and we're only talking about the 1960s here) it is really almost impossible to earn enough money (with one of the lowest priced locos available at that time - not including retired designs though) to just pay for a simple single track layout using the cheapest tracks and the cheapest stations. IMHO that setting is a little too hard for the majority of players (especially newer players). So I think this needs to be tweaked a bit, if we want more people to continually enjoy pak128. Of course we don't need raw materials to produce vast amounts of money - but they should be able to - at the very least - finance their own transports (incl. infrastructure) - and generate a small, continual profit. Which (currently) coal often just doesn't.

Offline Zeno

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Re: Pak128 prices list
« Reply #17 on: October 21, 2009, 09:16:56 PM »
Yup, you're right Dirk, no chance for newbies to get any income there; the difficulty level is a little to high at that point.

About the timeline, it should be the same result no matter the year being played since raw materials have no bonus, so price is not speed depending... it's just theory. Anyway I may take a look, cause raising prices probably won't make a difference, since vehicle RCs would be risen then to match those new prices (so vehicle balancing should also be modified). So this needs a more detailed analising & tuning I guess... and it doesn't sound easy :/

Offline DirrrtyDirk

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Re: Pak128 prices list
« Reply #18 on: October 21, 2009, 09:43:38 PM »
About the timeline, it should be the same result no matter the year being played since raw materials have no bonus, so price is not speed depending...

Just a quick thought - (and I really mean quick, so it might be flawed):
No, it's not connected to speed, at least not directly... But at later dates, vehicles usually get more expensive to run (since they are often more powerful and faster - and they are of course priced accordingly, so that they return reasonable - but not too high - profits with goods that actually have a speed bonus. But in cases with no speed bonus, there is no additional income to balance these increased costs... am I right? Especially when also production levels are not sufficient to have the train running often enough to generate more income by sheer transport volume, instead of speed (bonus)...

and it doesn't sound easy :/
Yes, what in balancing is ever easy?  ::(

Offline Zeno

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Re: Pak128 prices list
« Reply #19 on: October 22, 2009, 06:49:30 AM »
Especially when also production levels are not sufficient to have the train running often enough to generate more income by sheer transport volume, instead of speed (bonus)...
Oh yes, low production on non-bonused goods have a terrible impact on its profit because of high infrastructure mantainance (expensive stations/tracks + nothing to transport = bankrupcy). I may review how infrastructure affects vehicle cost calculations (at the moment I can't remember it); in a very generic/global meaning it should look like a "big" yearly fixed cost which should be substracted from the theoric vehicle yearly income.

Offline neroden

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Re: Pak128 prices list
« Reply #20 on: October 23, 2009, 09:08:48 AM »
Oh yes, low production on non-bonused goods have a terrible impact on its profit because of high infrastructure mantainance (expensive stations/tracks + nothing to transport = bankrupcy). I may review how infrastructure affects vehicle cost calculations (at the moment I can't remember it); in a very generic/global meaning it should look like a "big" yearly fixed cost which should be substracted from the theoric vehicle yearly income.
I wrote a fantastically complex (OK, not really that bad) set of spreadsheet calculations for pak128.Britain tonight exactly to relate infrastructure to vehicle profit.  I made the assumption that each route had its own custom infrastructure (which is close enough to true most of the time, frankly, and you should make more money if you somehow manage to share infrastructure), and I left out bridge and tunnel costs; apart from that it's quite accurate (though I think there were a few things I forgot to tweak in the formulas).  I ran the numbers as "monthly" rather than "yearly" though.  And yes, production level is one of the crucial inputs.

Feel free to borrow my formulas from the spreadsheet and plug in pak128 numbers....




[/quote]

Offline fabio85

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Re: Pak128 prices list
« Reply #21 on: October 31, 2009, 12:28:23 PM »
Another question: how Simutrans calculate speed bonuses? It looks only convoy maximum speed or the real maximum speed? For example: if speed bonus is at 50km/h and I buy a truck that can run at 60km/h maximum, I will earn the speed bonus or it depends on the type of road I will use for it? If I use a 45km/h max road, the truck will never go at 60km/h...

Offline DirrrtyDirk

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Re: Pak128 prices list
« Reply #22 on: October 31, 2009, 12:36:07 PM »
AFAIK Simutrans (standard) only uses the theoretical max speed of a convoy, not the actually reached speed. So using a 60 km/h truck on a 45 km/h road should still bring the speed bonus for 60km/h.