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Author Topic: Elevated ways and new simutrans  (Read 9812 times)

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Offline Amelek

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Elevated ways and new simutrans
« on: November 15, 2009, 09:15:02 AM »
With introduction of fancy "3d cursor" comes bug in elevated ways. I don't know if elevated roads and rail is affected, but elevated maglev from pak64 is.

There are two bugs:
1. It is possible to build one track on another. Currently, elevated way build +1 to cursor position, so if cursor is aligned to elevated track instead of ground it is possible to build new one on +2. There seem to be no limit in height:
http://mallorn.ii.uj.edu.pl/~amelek/waybug_1.PNG

It is only possible to continue tracks over other tracks though.
However:
2. It is possible to destroy track under another track, resulting in levitating way.
http://mallorn.ii.uj.edu.pl/~amelek/waybug_2.PNG

Online Dwachs

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Re: Elevated ways and new simutrans
« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2009, 03:08:47 PM »
Yes, these are some kind of known and tolerated bugs.

Before the chnge to the cursor system, one could achieve such things with the help of terraforming: raise land, build elevated way on top of it, the lower land again.

Here, some kind of a max-height restriction for the elevated way is needed.

Offline z9999+

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Re: Elevated ways and new simutrans
« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2009, 03:18:47 PM »
If you restrict or forbid this, please make a option setting for this in simuconf.tab.
Since many players really enjoying this feature, please allow this.

Offline Amelek

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Re: Elevated ways and new simutrans
« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2009, 03:38:11 PM »
well, i like this feature, but in current implementation it is really bad

Things to consider:
pak-definable pillars or similar feature to avoid floating ways
ability to connect high-level ways to low-level ones ( no idea how to do this now )
ability to somehow build beyond stack (sliced mode?)
restrict max height
make high ways more expensive then low ones. Currently, you pay the same no matter how high you build

Anyway, currently I find this much more confusing then useful. Its pretty hard to extend elevated ways as you need to make sure, that cursor is one level down track you like to extend, rather then on that track.

Offline z9999+

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Re: Elevated ways and new simutrans
« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2009, 04:09:29 PM »
ability to connect high-level ways to low-level ones ( no idea how to do this now )

You can connect different levels.


Offline DirrrtyDirk

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Re: Elevated ways and new simutrans
« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2009, 04:40:47 PM »
z9999+:

How did you do it? Raise land, build and then lower land again or is there another method?

Offline jonasbb

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Re: Elevated ways and new simutrans
« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2009, 04:44:04 PM »
raise and lower land is the old method to build such things.
With the 3D cursor, you can easily put the cursor over an elevated track and then build in one level higher.

Offline z9999+

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Re: Elevated ways and new simutrans
« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2009, 05:35:54 PM »
Yes, you can use slope tool and trace surface with way tool to connect them.
Pillars are track and elevated track like as place holder.

Offline DirrrtyDirk

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Re: Elevated ways and new simutrans
« Reply #8 on: November 15, 2009, 06:36:12 PM »
Ah same as with tunnels! Ok, thanks!

Offline prissi

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Re: Elevated ways and new simutrans
« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2009, 06:39:10 PM »
The only thing that is maybe to be changed is to forbid destroying elevated gorund under elevated grounds. All the other stuff is (as written before) intended.

Offline skreyola

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Re: Elevated ways and new simutrans
« Reply #10 on: November 15, 2009, 10:40:36 PM »
ability to somehow build beyond stack (sliced mode?)
*support*
It seems to me that, intuitively, building while in slice mode should guarantee that ways built are all on the level selected by the slice. I was frustrated when I first discovered it was possible to build a second level of elevated monorail, because I didn't realize it and did it by accident, and then I couldn't get it to select for removal, and I thought the game was stuck or something until I figured out I had to places the cursor more carefully.
I'd love to see a boundary function for building in slice mode.
I agree that higher elevated ways should be more expensive (but I think it should be a .conf option, too, in case people want something between hard mode and -freeplay.
The only thing that is maybe to be changed is to forbid destroying elevated gorund under elevated grounds. All the other stuff is (as written before) intended.
I agree that destroying elevated under elevated needs to be restricted. However, I'd think a method should be made to remove el-under-el ways that replaces them with pillars... though in the real world, you would have to remove and rebuild, so maybe you're right that just forbidding is best.

Offline prissi

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Re: Elevated ways and new simutrans
« Reply #11 on: November 16, 2009, 09:29:06 AM »
Elevated ways likely not get pillars, since the are not ways but grounds with predefined ways. I do not want to have elevated ways x-levels above ground. It is not very realistic, and even today you can do almost any connection you need with them. Otherwiese, for freely formed way go underground (as in reality.)

And do you really need more spaghetti junctions than those:

Offline wlindley us

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Re: Elevated ways and new simutrans
« Reply #12 on: November 16, 2009, 01:13:25 PM »
Can someone please explain how to build an elevated way like this?  I have tried using Ctrl, then tried various things in slice mode and nothing builds elevated ways (even with pak64, rc-2864) and don't see any way to do it...?    Also, what is the 3d-cursor?  Documentation anywhere?  (Yes I searched the forum and history.txt -- found nothing)

Offline Lord Vetinari

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Re: Elevated ways and new simutrans
« Reply #13 on: November 16, 2009, 01:28:57 PM »
The only thing that is maybe to be changed is to forbid destroying elevated gorund under elevated grounds. All the other stuff is (as written before) intended.

I agree, but we need something that lets you go up without terraforming for at least one level. Double decker highways and tracks are quite common. I think about Queens Plaza station in New York, for example. There are quite a lot of them in Tokyo too and I suppose also in other cities I didn't visited yet.
The whole point of having an elevated way is to be able to build other ways under it. If you are forced to terraform then you can as well use normal ways over an embankment (by the way, it's a good thing that you can't drag elevated ways over a city building or and industry, but nothing prevents buildings and industries to grow under an el when a nearby city expands. After a couple of years one may end up with chimneys or skyscrapers popping through the tracks).

Can someone please explain how to build an elevated way like this?  I have tried using Ctrl, then tried various things in slice mode and nothing builds elevated ways (even with pak64, rc-2864) and don't see any way to do it...?    Also, what is the 3d-cursor?  Documentation anywhere?  (Yes I searched the forum and history.txt -- found nothing)

You can't do that with normal tracks. Not currently, at least. There are, however, coded elevated ways; monorails have them by default, and there are add-ons from the japanese Simutrans community for elevated roads and rails. Then you need patience and a little bit of terraforming to achieve that spagetti junction.


EDIT: z9999+, where can I find those supports? I already have the add-on for elevated rails, but I don't have supports for a second level. Can I drag a road or anything under them as I can do with the standard els?
« Last Edit: November 16, 2009, 01:46:01 PM by Lord Vetinari »

Offline VS

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Re: Elevated ways and new simutrans
« Reply #14 on: November 16, 2009, 01:30:06 PM »
wlindley - 3d cursor is the normal cursor after some recent improvements. As you can see in z9999+'s screenshots, it can go up and looks like a stack of boxes instead of just rectangle on ground. Try moving it a bit more carefully and you'll see that it "catches" on upper parts of bridges and elevated ways. So you build these insane constructs by moving the cursor up and building second elevated way over the already existing.

Offline wlindley us

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Re: Elevated ways and new simutrans
« Reply #15 on: November 16, 2009, 01:43:20 PM »
Aha!  Thanks guys.  ("Any problem -- once solved! -- is simple.")

Offline skreyola

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Re: Elevated ways and new simutrans
« Reply #16 on: November 16, 2009, 06:55:57 PM »
Elevated ways likely not get pillars, since the are not ways but grounds with predefined ways. I do not want to have elevated ways x-levels above ground
....
And do you really need more spaghetti junctions than those:
I don't see how any spaghetti junctions are needed, since there's no both-lanes-one-way in simutrans, so why not just have a basic intersection or roundabout?
My concern with pillars was for the aesthetics, so there's no floating el.

Offline Isaac.Eiland-Hall us

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Re: Elevated ways and new simutrans
« Reply #17 on: November 18, 2009, 05:41:45 AM »
Reduction of congestion is possible with at least basic interchanges. I haven't experimented with really complex stuff, but I generally prefer *more* freedom, not *less*.

For example: If I had the capability of building elevated roads on top of water - well, that's just a bridge to me; same functionality as a bridge, except I could make curves and cheaper connections; or more effective connections, or even just more aesthetically pleasing connections. :)

Offline Aglezabad

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Re: Elevated ways and new simutrans
« Reply #18 on: November 18, 2009, 09:25:56 PM »
This function is brilliant. Almost it is possible to waste the bridges and do elevated ways. But there is a problem, a small bug. I pass the image to you.
There doesn't worry the visual problem, but the problem of which it may causes a critical stop in Simutrans.