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More city buildings

Started by Archon, February 13, 2010, 10:47:07 AM

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The Hood

While these buildings are rare, we do need some. One option is to code them as attractions rather than city buildings. We will have them one day, but it's a case of when I or someone else decides to draw them.

Carl

Quote from: kierongreen on September 06, 2012, 07:01:36 PM
The problem is this type of building is very very rare in Britain. Simutrans has a habit of flooding areas with the highest level building available, which would mean them cropping up in every area :(
I think this can be exacerbated -- to a certain extent, at least -- by having several buildings at the highest level and giving a lower "chance" parameter to the ones you want to be rare. I seem to remember using this to avoid a similar problem a while ago.

AP

The thing with 'skyscrapers' is UK planning law (and economics) encourages them to cluster. Coding them as attractions will stop the proliferating unduly, but actually to be realistic, if anything, the attraction should be e.g. a 3x3 city block containing 6 or 7 of them, with a park or plaza between, with a very low probability. Otherwise there is every chance of 2 or 3 tall towers every city, whereas in fact there are many cities which do or have effectively operate(d) blanket bans on them (e.g. many cathedral cities), some deliberately, other by means of conservation policy, whereas other cities have areas where they are tolerated (or encouraged) becaues the impact is less.

UK cities, unlike e.g. American cities, are mostly very human in scale (exceptions exist, often products of the 1950-70s). Skyscrapers are generlaly very poor contributors to the urban environment, and indeed just create transport nightmares - I read in the architectural press not too long ago one of the only reasons the Shard got permission is that it sits almost directly on top of London Bridge railway station.

sdog

QuoteSkyscrapers [...] just create transport nightmares - I read in the architectural press not too long ago one of the only reasons the Shard got permission is that it sits almost directly on top of London Bridge railway station.

Well planed they would not need to create such nightmares, the station below is a good start. Requiring every skyscraper development project to also build living quarters within walking distance another one. The trend to re-urbanization likely needs such concepts. And they are being developed, i heard Chinese cities are working hard at such things [while the central government undermines the effort to foster the automobile industry].

The attraction idea of a cluster of skyscrapers is excellent. I think this might be by far the best way to cover three aspects, first to get the actual ensemble, secondly make them unique on the map, and thirdly allows to tweak the passenger an mail numbers without too much trouble.

AP

Quote from: sdog on September 06, 2012, 11:50:17 PM
The attraction idea of a cluster of skyscrapers ...

Thinking this through, it would also have the advantage of appearing toward the periphery of a city, away from the historic core, which is realistic (e.g. canary wharf). The exceptions would be cities that were bomb-damaged or regenerated, but simutrans doesn't do war or economic decline!

The Hood

The other advantage of an attractions approach is that citybuildings are max 1x1 tiles and skyscrapers are often bigger in footprint.

ras52

I know this has been discussed before, but can I put in a request for more variety in town halls?  Simutrans supports multiple size town halls.  I've just tested this using the stone church / college / cathedral buildings — it seems to work fine, and will demolish nearby buildings or relocate the hall when it needs to resize it midway through a game.  It would be nice to take advantage of this by having 1x1 and 1x2 village / small town halls, perhaps expanding as much as 3x4 for a large city hall.  Less importantly, the neo-Palladian architecture of the current town halls is only really appropriate for the 18th or early 19th centuries.  It might be nice if we also had versions that were mediæval (e.g. the London Guildhall), neo-Gothic (e.g. Manchester Town Hall) and modern (e.g. London City Hall). 

In this message Kieron Green said that it was important that the town hall should be immediately recognizable.  Is this really true?  From a game play perspective, I rarely to want to access the city tab, and if I do, I find the city list is often a more convenient way of accessing it than clicking on the town hall; and I almost never care precisely where the hall is.  By contrast, I frequently want to locate city industries (pubs, bakeries, and the like) and they're often very similar in style to houses.  I'm not advocating changing the city industries to make them more readily identifiable, but I think the case for doing that is rather stronger than the case for readily-identifiable town halls.
Richard Smith

greenling

ras52
The photolinks looks very nice out.
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kierongreen

I think there's potential for a range of town halls (including the ones you mention). What I would suggest is that each town hall has a range of sizes all in the same style, preferably each the same size (like the present one). So 18th century (and earlier) might have mediaeval, first half of 19th century the current one, then other new ones for second half of 19th century, first half of 20th century (art deco?) and second half of 20th century (modern). Probably also a 21st century one. Are you volunteering to draw some? :p

ras52

Quote from: kierongreen on October 02, 2012, 06:07:40 PM
Are you volunteering to draw some? :p

No, but if it'll help, I'm happy to take a look at any bugs in the code that may come to light with multiple styles and sizes of town halls.
Richard Smith

Combuijs

pak64 has multiple sizes of the townhall. As far as I know there are no problems with it, but when extending to a larger size it can relocate the townhall. As I hate those relocations I've removed the smaller ones from my personal pak64.
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greenling

Combuijs
I think thats smaller townhalls must be Stay in Paksets.
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ras52

Quote from: Combuijs on October 02, 2012, 06:33:33 PM
pak64 has multiple sizes of the townhall. As far as I know there are no problems with it, but when extending to a larger size it can relocate the townhall. As I hate those relocations I've removed the smaller ones from my personal pak64.

I'm curious.  Is there a game play reason for disliking town hall relocations, or is your objection simply aesthetic (not that that isn't important too)?

Based on recent experiments with a modified version of pak128-Britain with town halls of sizes 1x1, 1x2, 2x2, 2x3 and 3x3, it seems more common than not for the town hall to be upgraded in situ with 1x1 -> 1x2 -> 2x2.  The upgrade from 2x2 -> 2x3 usually resulted in it being moved by a short distance; but the upgrade from 2x3 -> 3x3 almost invariably involved a large move, and sometimes to a suburb site.  It might be possible to reduce the scope for major relocations if we are allowed to delete city roads during the upgrade (with the obvious caveat that removing the road leaves the city's road network connected), but that's a code issue, not a pak one.
Richard Smith

Combuijs

QuoteIs there a game play reason for disliking town hall relocations, or is your objection simply aesthetic (not that that isn't important too)?

I don't mind about aesthetics, so for game play reasons. As townhalls generate a lot of passengers and mail such relocation will influence local traffic and a need to rebalance the line system in town. Further, it is irritating to see the townhall somewhere in a new corner of the city, its position is changed on the minimap while the city itself remains in the same place. Also when clicking on the city list the view is centered on the townhall. It like it to be in the same place all the time, it is more or less an orientation point for the city.

QuoteIt might be possible to reduce the scope for major relocations if we are allowed to delete city roads during the upgrade (with the obvious caveat that removing the road leaves the city's road network connected)

Never do that, it might disrupt a few transportroutes without you noticing it (busses may take a long way around).
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AP

There are c20th precedents for town hall relocations though. Often the symbolic "hall" in the town centre is kept for functions, whilst the offices full of staff (and generating the "traffic") is relocated to a nice modern air conditioned building on the ring road where the parking is better.

I like the idea of evolving town halls (i may have said this before). The cotswolds have some lovely pre-twentieth-century examples on the same design (from simple Tetbury to grand county hall Abingdon).

kierongreen

The reason for keeping town halls the same size is to keep it in the same place. Yes simutrans tries to do this, but it's not guaranteed, and it would look a bit odd for a town hall to be extended and moved at the same time. However the different styles could be different sizes as if it's a completely new building being built then it would be expected that this might often be in a new place.

jamespetts

Quote from: kierongreen on October 02, 2012, 06:07:40 PM
I think there's potential for a range of town halls (including the ones you mention). What I would suggest is that each town hall has a range of sizes all in the same style, preferably each the same size (like the present one). So 18th century (and earlier) might have mediaeval, first half of 19th century the current one, then other new ones for second half of 19th century, first half of 20th century (art deco?) and second half of 20th century (modern). Probably also a 21st century one. Are you volunteering to draw some? :p

I definitely agree with this - this would be splendid. The current range of town halls is good for the earlier era, I think.
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wlindley

How about a porte-cochère as a through roadway station, matching the stone railway buildings...

greenling

Wlindley
Those Busstop looks very good out.
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jamespetts

Interesting. What is the historical precedent for that?
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wlindley

#405
It is a small version of something not unlike Glasgow Central Station

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Central_station_panoramic.JPG

The undercroft 'bus station I posted some time ago, while we are in Glasgow, was inspired by Glasgow Queen Street:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Glasgow_Queen_Street,_station_entrance.JPG

Both works in progress, looking to bring historic and modern railway stations out to the street interface.


jamespetts

#406
Hmm. It's hard to see how the reasons for designing  things this way in the first place could satisfactorily be simulated. People would be able to use these on their own, yet it makes no sense in reality to have them on their own, I think.
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Junna

Quote from: jamespetts on January 31, 2013, 02:08:34 PM
Hmm. It's hard to see how the reasons for designing  things this way in the first placee could satisactorily be simulated. PEople would be able to use these on their own, yet it makes no sense in reality to have them on their own, I think.

Sometimes, things just being there for the appearance is entirely acceptable and good.

AP

Quote from: wlindley on January 31, 2013, 01:05:33 PM
How about a porte-cochère as a through roadway station, matching the stone railway buildings...
We call them carriage porches here in GB, none of that french nonsense here... ;-)

greenling

Woh.
Very cool those photo.
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wlindley

Playable pakset and sources including Gimp .xcf for the ... umm, carriage porch... here

sdog

James, don't mind people using things in an unhistorical or silly way. There are endless possibilities to do so. It'd be better to consider if it fits the scope in its intended use.


@Wlindley
The original porte-cochère looks rather splendidly. Especially since it's just an example or a prototype. There was however something i couldn't put my finger on. Reading the wikipedia article gave me the clue:

"At the foot of the porte-cochère there are often a couple of guard stones to prevent the wheels of the vehicle from damaging the wall."

I think something similar to this would greatly improve it, the right angle at which the walls reach the floor looks a little strange.

wlindley

Applying the modular approach to Town Halls, here are four phases, starting with a version for very small towns.

Note that these four different buildings are built from only six tiles, through the use of BackImage and FrontImage.  Only in one rotation so far, but the 180-degree rotation will not require any new tiles.

If the .pak format ever supports image duplication, the variety of buildings can increase dramatically while the size of paks decreases.  Here's hoping.

Bear789

One of the good things that I like about Pak Britain is that it won't randomly teleport the town hall to the other side of the city (or even worse in the outskirts) outside the catchment area of my carefully planned transport hub; that's because each stage is of the same size, so the game can replace the old one in the exact same spot when needed.
It seems that at least the first fase of those town halls is smaller than the others, and that will definetly cause the game to move it when the city grows.

wlindley

They are all coded as 2x2, with open spaces. ("Room for a pony!")

Bear789

Very well, then! They do look good.

greenling

Wlindley
the idea from 15:36 on the second png file work not so easy.
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jamespetts

Are these intended to be additional to, rather than instead of some of, the current full range of town halls?
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wlindley

The smaller two could be additional levels for villages, and when complete to replace the existing townhall levels 1 through 3.  That would replace as follows:

was: 3 levels with 16 tiles x 3 levels x 2 seasons = 96 image tiles
with: 5 levels composed of 10 new tiles x 2 seasons = 20 tiles.

The Hood

I like them - I'm always keen on the modular approach and I'd love to see makeobj restructured so that it only saves each tile once regardless of how many times it is used in different objects - that would be a real win in terms of pak size.

The only thing I'm not sure about is how these fit in with levels of town hall - we could simply add extra levels on the bottom but even the lowest ones aren't exactly "village" halls - they're far too grand. This is something else that would require a coding change but I would like to see a differentiation in game between cities, towns and villages (i.e. how fast they grow and what mix of industrial/commercial/residential and attraction buildings they get). We could then have a set of 1x1 halls for villages, 1x2 for towns and 2x2 for cities.

Finally, are you planning on adding 4 rotations for the above?

PS I think the octagonal block could work quite well as a standalone building, e.g. a library?