Topic: pak128.USA

[wlindley]

Please advise here if you would be interested in co-operating on a pak128 version for the United States.

This would build on the excellent work from Pak128, Pak128.Britain, and others...

I've always been a little surprised no-one has really tried a pak128.USA.  I think there have been a few half-hearted attempts, and there are some pak128 scale american bits lying around on the archive forum, e.g.
http://archive.forum.simutrans.com/topic/00699.0/index.html
http://archive.forum.simutrans.com/topic/05920.0/index.html
http://archive.forum.simutrans.com/topic/06454.0/index.html
http://archive.forum.simutrans.com/topic/06436.0/index.html

Perhaps we can get permission to use some of the graphics already drawn? 

And what other usable bits exist -- anyone?

[The Hood]

You can of course use as much or as little of pak128.Britain as you want, but it is, well, a bit... British...  As long as the project is open source and gives credit to original authors, which is probably the best way forward IMO.

Good luck with the project - and if you are going to aim for a full-blown pakset I'd suggest doing what I did with pak128.Britain and start by taking an existing set (either pak128 or pak128.Britain, whichever suits the graphics style you settle on) and gradually replace the different parts.  Just be prepared for the long haul!

Unfortunately I won't be helping (except maybe the occasional guest contribution if I feel like a change from something British) as I think one pakset is more than enough to keep me busy!

[Combuijs]

Perhaps we can get permission to use some of the graphics already drawn? 

The first link is to Raven's work. He has given permission to use all of his creations for Simutrans if credited.

The other ones are from TonyBzt. I don't think he comes to this forum anymore, but you might be able to contact him via the German Simutrans Forum. As far as I know he had some troubles with copyright issues over there (pak128.German?), but that might just be me mis-interpreting the German language.

[wlindley]

Thanks Combuijs, I'll see if I can contact Tony. 

TheHood: I'll probably start with at least the buildings from Britain, ... after being "there" for so long, the bright colors in "regular" pak128 hurt the eyes!

Is there a repository of the blend files that the various .png were made from?  Is it true that by loading different light sources, it should be possible to convert "regular" pak128 to British or whatever USA lighting is chosen?

[VS]

If you want something from pak128, just tell me...

[The Hood]

Is there a repository of the blend files that the various .png were made from?  Is it true that by loading different light sources, it should be possible to convert "regular" pak128 to British or whatever USA lighting is chosen?

Yes (in the case of pak128.Britain) - it's called my hard disk  Just ask for what you want and I can send them.  All the pak128.Britain models have lighting setups in them for pak128.Britain, which is essentially a standard for all pak128.Britain buildings (I certainly try to encourage that for consistency's sake).  In theory, you could stick any blender model in the pak128.Britain lighting setup, and get a consistent result.  The only thing is that many pak128 buildings were hand drawn I think.

If you start with pak128.Britain, you could certainly use the tracks, rivers, and grounds (there is even a desert texture!) without any modification.  Roads would need to be converted to have give-way markers on the right instead of left, and US road markings, but that shouldn't be too hard (in any case, I think a USA roads set exists somewhere anyway, you could ask about using that).

[Spike]

Thanks Combuijs, I'll see if I can contact Tony. 

IIRC the problem was that the some images were only given to TonyBzt for using in pak128.german, and the rights could not be transferred to other people/sets. Was weird though. Ask him, maybe it clears up

I might be able to donate a cactus plant or two, but I guess pak128 already has better ones.

[Combuijs]

in any case, I think a USA roads set exists somewhere anyway, you could ask about using that

Yes, our benevolent dictator made them. I'm pretty sure he will donate his roads in exchange for a hat  .

[wlindley]

Hm, without the .blend files, it's like having only compiled code.

Ideally what should exist, is a Pak-generating script... so you can say make pak128.Britain or make pak128.USA and the Makefile will --

• Select the appropriate subset of ways, vehicles, and so forth, from a single repository;
• Load the appropriate Blender lighting and create the .png files;
• Apply an algorithm, according to curves defining the pak, to automatically balance production levels, payment levels, etc.
• Use a makeobj that directly understands images with sections larger than 1x1, and png's innate alpha transparency

Then all the paks could share the same source.  And you could just as well make pak64.Britain or make pak192.Britain or...

Otherwise developers of all the various paks (German, Dutch, USA, Britain, ...) are wasting time, re-inventing things already done.

Pak128.USA would be a logical, automatic fall-out of such a tool... perhaps *that* is what we should write first?

[The Hood]

Lovely idea, but I don't think it would work.  Pak128.Britain is probably the pakset most-derived from blender models, so in theory is best suited for such an approach.  But (and this is a big but) there is a significant amount of post-processing required on the blender images in the GIMP to remove stray pixels, perfect alignments etc.  I wouldn't say what you are after is impossible, but is at least incredibly impractical (and I should know, given I like using blender and hate pixel editing, I keep my pixel editing to a minimum and it still accounts for ~50% of the pakset work).  Anything with player colours or night colours is also very difficult in your scheme.  Besides, many artists prefer to use other 3D programs or to do it pixel by pixel, and generate good results.

By all means try, but I fear that the amount of work trying to do what you are doing would also constitute re-inventing things already done (if the pngs exist already, why not use them rather than spend months re-drawing the same thing?) and would work out slower.

I'm not trying to pour cold water on your idea, just speaking from experience

PS if you do find a way of automating all of the pixel editing, I'm first in the queue to use it!

[ӔO]

might as well throw in mexico and canada and call it pak128.North America since all freight rolling stock is shared between the three countries and the only real difference between each company is the paint scheme. (at least starting from the electric diesel age).

one thing that might be important is the scale, since freight trains here can stretch up to 2~3km and consist of more than 150 cars driven by 3~4 engines.

[VS]

Otherwise developers of all the various paks (German, Dutch, USA, Britain, ...) are wasting time, re-inventing things already done.

I see it as alternatives rather than reinventing. It's not that we all pakset people don't have something in common - Simutrans the program. But our approaches to graphical style, timeline, balancing etc. differ. That's why there will be more paksets, incompatible on various levels. For some reason, this is the spirit of this community - we work together, just not that much

Of course, you could start something, let's call it a bundle of paksets, where all of the sets overlap in vision, automation and content. Such approach makes a lot more sense than just applied broadly to everything. And 128.Britain is a logical candidate, because it is highly consistent, so there is less "import friction", so to say... But you won't get people coming to overturn the whole pakset they manage, just so that it fits a new scheme. If this hypothetical solution offers significant advantages over old ways, some will come. I'd say once there is some base of content, appending new paksets will become cheaper, which could be the killer. But if you want to absorb old paksets, too, your keywords are better, not merely another.

AFACIT all of us maintainers around here are happy to share, so there already is this kind of "support by content". Just not automated to death.

[wlindley]

Thanks VS, yes I see a core agreement forming on a 'family' of paks... although perhaps not quite as easy as "roll your own pak with five mouse clicks" i was daydreaming of this morning.  ( "I can haz magic pak-generating wand???")

Let's see who else responds here...

[The Hood]

"I can haz magic pak-generating wand???"

Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeezzzzzzzz!

[Spike]

Thanks VS, yes I see a core agreement forming on a 'family' of paks...

There is no love anymore for the smaller paks

Edit: Also, posting 666. Must be a curse.

[VS]

Bigger screens -> smaller paks are too small for people that need glasses

Solution -> resize to 2x size and call pak64x2.Hajo

[Spike]

I guess I have too many other ideas, such a pak set needs much time and devotion. I should try smaller projects, which I can finish in a reasonable amount of time.

But sometimes it itches me to make a high quality all-raytraced set.

[jamespetts]

I remember on the old forums somebody tried a Pak192.US at one stage, but it never got very far. 192 seems a good size for an American pakset - after all, everything's bigger in the US

It's a good idea to have US content, though, as it might help to make Simutrans more popular over the pond, and attract a considerable number of North American users and developers.

[ӔO]

if things are done in 192 size, I wonder how the really big vehicles will scale, or if they even fit within 255 tile sizes, because we have some really huge (and long) vehicles in NA.

[The Hood]

It might be easier to stick to 128x128 - certainly demo versions would be easier to create and generate momentum for the project as certain parts could be borrowed from pak128 / pak128.Britain.

[sdog]

i'm living in toronto since about 2 months now, and i think the most important detail to make the pak typicaly american would be to make streets in cities twice as wide, with one square for each direction.

(the other thing that strikes me about toronto's TTC is the rolling stock, wich looks like it was right out of the museum
)

i think there are already some code changes for double lane tunnels comming, maybe there's a chance to extend that code for general streets.

[ӔO]

TTC doesn't have the money to replace them
If you think those GM buses are old, then you'd be surprised at how old the streetcars are. They only look new because they got a new paint job.

CLRV was introduced since 1977 and another batch was made in 1981
ALRV was introduced in 1987
We still had PCC streetcars running in the mid 90's.

One key thing with a lot of North American vehicles is that it's used long past it's retirement date, either because there's a shortage of money or because it hasn't been totalled.

[sdog]

a bit off-topic (but pms are still down):

having not enough money shouldn't be a problem for a public company as the TTC. they should have excellent credit ratings. lending the money wouldn't be a weight on the balance when they buy a vehicle with it. dunno if new buses are written of in 10 or 15 years.
driving that old stuff should cost plenty in maintenance. it maybe also doesn't attract a lot of riders. and taking  the buses for a short part is almost inevitable for any trip here.

i encountered the first streetcar last summer on college street. i thought it was just a touristic thing, with a historic car. i knew those rod-like pantographs from the museum only. same for the small doors. learned quickly however (spadina) it's on the 'rapid' lines too. (oh, did i mention i kind of love them streetcars? they remind me of the old P Reihe in Munich
here in front of Löwenbräu Biergarten and brewery. when i commuted on that line they were extremely rare already. Toronto and Munich both have 11 lines with 75km track!)

well, as i said only for a month here, but it's already enough to get surprised everyday how planless TTC and much more the political responsible in toronto act and acted. seems like they start to build a random major high profile project, just to scrap it after a few years. leaving for example half finished subway stations or a dedicated tram track without any trafic signal priority or dedicated entry points behind. my guess is some mayor wins an election with some big plans for TTC, the next one wins it by promising to cut down the TTC.

on the other hand it works almost well enough, and i'm pretty glad it's there. i'd be screwed without th TTC. i also think the people here in toronto are rather proud of it, and i don't want to hit a nerve, so don't consider it as complaint. it's more of being surprised abouth how differently the transport can be run.

what i find kind of symphathetic about the TTC is it's very outfashioned way. a lot of old people working for it. and i almost couldn't believe it: an employee the 'collector' at every subway station!

[ӔO]

no worries there sdog, most torontonians have exactly the same thoughts you do.
It's inadequate, we know it's falling apart, but it's severely difficult to live without it.

speaking of no plans in urban development, just check out our highways. 8 lanes of traffic each way.


back on topic, for a USA/Canada/Mexico pakset, there should be a heavy reliance on air and road for passenger transport, while rail and ship would be heavy in freight.  There's no high-speed passenger train service. If European transport is fast, small and nimble, then North American transport is slow, large and lumbering.

[wlindley]

AEO: I would like Pak128.USA to permit the way things 'should' have been, as well as the way the are.

I would play my games as "What if Pullman hadn't been bought by the railroads in 1944, as the result of a Supreme Court Decision, but instead R.R. Young's conglomerate? What if Congress listened to President Eisenhower and built only a skeletal Interstate Defense Highway system, and refused federal funding to airports?"  Things would be quite different...

[ӔO]

@wlindly

now that might be more interesting than what we have now.

[werl]

8 lanes of traffic each way

Actually i counted 9.

love the idea of a North American pak, I say this because the US and Canada have similar transportation systems.

only 2 lanes each way in Alberta.

[sdog]

i'll take the ttc - with all it's kinks and unreliability - anyday, i really hope i never have to use THAT *points at AEO's photo*

that's by the way about the first thing a foreigner sees from canada, when arriving in toronto. (i had more luck and a nicer first glimpse: two cycles around downtown and the islands, on a bright sunny afternoon.)

if there wasn't so much motorised trafic and less crossroads, toronto would be great to use cycles to get around. very flat, rather good weather, a bit windy though. I heard horrible things however about north american drivers when sharing roads with cyclists.

[ӔO]

Cycling isn't so bad in Toronto. It could be better. The main problems are the highways and train tracks that limit and force bicycles and cars to share the road, which isn't pleasant in some areas due to bad drivers in general.

to reflect it in the pakset, the cost of elevated ways and bridges should be very pricey compared to ways that are not.

[werl]

Not living in a city with mass transit, car is most common. If it was available, I would use mass transit before even thinking of stating a car. What you would need to do is put a focus on things like elevated or even the tunnels to move around. The only mass transit that i remember being on is the ETS. The new expansions are nice.

For anybody who is thinking of working on this, electrics (of any kind) should be super expensive to purchase and have little variety, we mostly use diesel loco's. Big vehicles are a MUST. piece goods on planes would make for a more realistic North American experience. Trucks should be cheep to run. but only make trains and planes profitable over LONG distances. One last thing, for citycars, pickup trucks are a must.

I think that I will take Hood and VS on their offers.  (just a sort of pass time thing to do on the weekends)

[Plastikman]

Interesting.

It has been a long time since I played Simutrains. Maybe it is time I take a look at it again...

[The Hood]

Is anything happening with this?  I think it would be a real shame to let this go the way of all the other pak128.USA discussions, i.e. all talk and no results.  Why not put together a quick demo release with all the bits you can so far, perhaps using pak128.Britain as a base?  That's how pak128.Britain got going... (combined with a decent train set as that's mainly what people like to play with, that should probably be the first priority).

[wlindley]

OK let me see what I can put together.  Work has been hectic the past few weeks, but I have a bit of time now.

I'll likely start with a little copy of Britain ... hmm, sounds like 'real' history!  (p.s., I was once asked if I would consider joining the Sons of the American Revolution but I explained my link to that event, my 7th great-grandfather, came over to fight those pesky colonists.  Invitation rescinded with a laugh and a grin "have a beer anyway.")

[jamespetts]

Any chance of making it Experimental cocompatible?

[prissi]

Someone look over to the OpenTTD 256 tile thread: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=44188

That would be an awesome american pak set!

Some image links: