Topic: pak128.USA

[Zeno]

Oh Jeez! Did ya see that?? 
I don't know if I should feel jelous or just amazed...They look very 3D-ish indeed. Those graphics are outstanding!

[sdog]

om*g

how did they do that terrain, it looks nothing like the ugly ttd polyeders anymore. (i guess it helps a bit that in openTTD terrain elevations are only half as high)

any idea if it is open source?

[prissi]

About open source: Ask the guy doing this.

And the ridges are just clever elevations ... may have been worked better with non-skinned simutrans; however reintroducing non-skinned tile support would be easy if somebody comes out with such tiles. Even doing half-height is easily possible. Much more since simutrans allows longer trains than OpenTTD (and a patch for less clipping errors is also under advanced testing).

[ӔO]

that's pretty impressive.

I think the shadows help it looks realistic, on top of the high pixel count tile size and render quality.

[prissi]

I just had to try: This is how the txteture and six buildings compose cities in simutrans 128 ...

[gauthier]

that's lovely  

I don't like many paks but pak128, but this one is simply lovely ...

[sdog]

hamburg won't sink after climat change, but look like this?

looks pretty good prissi!

[sdog]

Prissi, a few questions:

- are there reasons not to go for 256 tilesize, if a pak would be mostly built from scratch?

- In 3d larger textures are less of a problem than the number of textures, how's it with the tile based 2d renderer used in simutrans?

- When taking objects from 128 paks, could they be scaled up them as placeholders?

- For a US pak it would be nice to have the climate of a tile not only based on it's height, but also have a climate gradient from north to south. Could this be implemented in standard without to much work?

- can normal city buildings, i mean non-factory, non-attraction buildings also spread over more than one tile, or cluster like farms or solar powerplants?

@pak US team:
Regarding building from scratch: I don't think taking pak128 britain objects directly into a pak north america would be a perfect sollution. The light is different here, and most things are much more colourfull.


ps.: sorry for the double posting, but my last posting was so old, i didn't want to modify it.

[Dwachs]

although I am not prissi, I think I can answer some questions.

Prissi, a few questions:

- are there reasons not to go for 256 tilesize, if a pak would be mostly built from scratch?

Prissi did some code change recently to allow larger graphics. Before that each piece of graphics was limited to 255x255. I personally find pak192 way too large. You have to keep in mind that only very small numbers of  256x256 tiles can be displayed on a screen. So constant zooming out is a must when playing.

- When taking objects from 128 paks, could they be scaled up them as placeholders?

Nothing implemented in this direction, you have to scale up the graphics yourselves.

- For a US pak it would be nice to have the climate of a tile not only based on it's height, but also have a climate gradient from north to south. Could this be implemented in standard without to much work?

Impossible (I mean much work would be required).

- can normal city buildings, i mean non-factory, non-attraction buildings also spread over more than one tile,

No (in the sense that nobody works on an implementation)

or cluster like farms or solar powerplants?

I dont understand you here.

[prissi]

All non-special buildings are single tile. A code change to allow loading them but ignore them for automatically placement would be easy.

And yes, I am working in the moment a little on the size restriction of images. Imho even pak128 is too large for me ... But zooming works very good with the comic paks.

ABout texture size: I do not understand what you are asking.

[VS]

Graphics size is actually two issues.

• You can make the individual pictures very nice.
• The algorithms for positioning these pictures and moving them do not cope well with larger sizes (aesthetically).

So larger tile sizes are already partially possible - technically, without the means to actually look good. Which defeats the purpose, doesn't it. But I think biggerizing the pictures without any regard for other aspects wouldn't yield anything beautiful anyway. Perhaps focusing on individual graphic quality and consistency is a reasonable choice for next few years?

[jamespetts]

One issue at present is that larger sizes zoomed out look considerably worse than smaller sizes zoomed in.

[prissi]

Currently OpenTTD has a quite a lot images for 32Bit; but all those are made for 256 tiles. Thus, it seems to me reasonable to allow also for that tiles size. Especially since there is very little effort needed to support it.

[sdog]

When taking objects from 128 paks, could they be scaled up them as placeholders?

Nothing implemented in this direction, you have to scale up the graphics yourselves.

i put it in the wrong part of the message, this was less of a technical question, than a suggestion for a way to get to a pak256, if neccessary. i was indeed thinking of just doubling and interpolating them with e.g. imagemagick

if i understand you correctly, something in the line of LOD (level of detail) would be needed to make larger tilesizes feasible. I expect most players would likely play most of the time zoomed out to varying degrees.

or are more fundamental problems to be expected with large tile sizes?

[rfg123]

If anyone is still interested in an American/Canadian pak I would be willing to help.. Just let me know which pakset size to start working in, and I can make a few sample buildings or way types and see where it goes from there.

[wlindley]

I have not yet figured out how to get the pak started.  Perhaps we could use this as an exercise in writing a wiki page, How To Start A New Pak ...?

[The Hood]

I can try to help from my experiences of pak128.Britain if you want.  IIRC, the things you need in a new pakset for it to actually work are grounds, fences and a gui, but there may be more.  As I have said above, the best bet is to take an existing pakset and replace things piece-by-piece.  I'd generally say that replacing trains first is the best place to start, as that is what most people like to play with so you can get some momentum going with that. 

While pak128.Britain may be the obvious starting point in terms of open-source, sdog's comments about the lighting are probably correct.  pak128.USA should be brighter and less gloomy I think.  For new stuff that's not a problem, just increase the brightness of render settings.  For existing stuff, you could try brightening images in a picture editor.  Get the grounds right first for this, and then try a few buildings or vehicles.  Alternatively, you can ask VS for a lot of openpak128 stuff (he's very obliging!)

[checksumdigit]

hi wlindley,

I'm interested in contributing graphics to a US pak set. I just found this game over a month ago and have been playing pak96.comic so I started creating some US focused graphics for the pak (http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=5267.0). However, it already seems like my style/scale is not the best for for that pak. I'd be happy to start looking into 128 instead if you are leading the US version in that direction. Has a style been defined at all. Personally I like the comic style but it does have its limitations in terms of realism. I was thinking of starting as US pakset with 96comic as a base and removing/adding individual paks to gradually make a US pak. I agree with The Hood that a US pak colors and lighting should be brighter and this is the main reason 128 britain was not as interesting to me.

My contributions would be focused on structures, roads and road vehicles post 1960's to present. Just let me know where my efforts would be best used.

[ӔO]

If you'd like pictures of rolling stock for CN, I could take pictures as I live right by a stock yard and train station where VIA and GO trains run. I also recently saw some Automax tri-level car racks sitting around. I wonder if they're still there...

[greenling]

wlindley
I Have an old paksetzip with the name 128_us_set.zip.
The Pakset do only work with Simutrans 0.85.xx.x and Simutrans 0.86.xx.x!
In My Simutransfolder Simutrans 086105 do this pakset work unter the name pak128_usa .
I hat hear that´s this paksetzip from raven are it.
And I hat hear to that´s the engineerdata to build this Pakset that from Raven it´s go through a Harddiskcrash be loss!

wlindley want you have this paksetzip with the name 128_us_set.zip?

Greenling

[wlindley]

Greenling:  OK please to bill@saltriversystems.com

I hope to have a "starter" pak derived from Open pak128 and pak128.Britain, this week.

[DirrrtyDirk]

In the German forum greenling just announced that he won't be online until evening of june 18th - so you'll have to wait a while, I guess.

[greenling]

Hallo Dear Member
1. Alle Member the want to Have the paksetzip with the name 128_us_set.zip Please sending a Mail!

In the mail must be stand the info What´s for Hardware you have,
and what´s for Operatingsystem you use,
and the EmailAdress who i be Can to sending the paksetzip.
Don´t forget to use in the Commentfield the password : Pak128.usa .

2. Im try to kepp Quick answer so fast i can!

3. My Laptop gove the ghost up but the Datas from My HD Live.

4. At 16:00 Pm after Germantime I get Online.Must make a Job and the Job can´t wait.I want not loss my Job!

[DirrrtyDirk]

Why do you need to know anyone's hardware and OS? And making it a requirement to give you that information before you agree to share what you have is a little... strange. As far as I know, you never created anything yourself, just collected things from other people - so why don't you just upload it somewhere and openly state the link for everybody? Instead of asking for hardware, OS and email address from everyone who might be interested... to me your behaviour (once more) makes me very suspicious of your intentions...

Oh and you shouldn't translate German slang word by word - it doesn't make sense in English that way.

[Isaac.Eiland-Hall]

I suggest uploading what you have to http://files.simutrans.us/ - that's what it's there for.

[greenling]

Hallo dear Simutransmembers
i Have be upload my 086105 Simutransfolder at http://files.simutrans.us .
Here it´s the Link to the zipfile.
http://files.simutrans.us/files/get/0SuZ3Hgg-Y/086105-simutransfolder-from-greenling.zip
The info for the Operatingsystem be standing in important please read.
Please give me massage the link not work!
Sorry my English get rusty!

Greenling

[Lmallet]

@Greenling:  It seems you have put a European car set in your pak128_usa (looks like Raven's car set).  To my knowledge, American trains have never had brakeman's cabins (while wikipedia seems to suggest its use in the US, I have yet to see a photograph of such a thing in North America).  Typical American trains would have brakemen in the locomotive and in the caboose at the rear; when braking was needed, the brakemen would climb on top of the train from their respective locations and make their way towards the middle of the train, applying brakes on the way.  Also, the colorful European tank cars seem out of place  (They should generally be black or white).

I will wait to see what wlindley comes up with.  86.10.5 is a very old version of Simutrans, I would prefer something a bit more current

[greenling]

Lmallet
I hate looking in my 128_us_set.zip and i Find some Europan vehicles,
those Vehicles hat Raven puting in this Pakset that he a Playabale Pakset.
This paksetzip it from raven.
Raven can This Pakset not more rebuild he loss the engineerdata throu a
Harddiskcrash.
Then you want to make new Generation form Pak128.usa then Must
you useing some Pakfiles out the Age from 086105 Simutrans.

[wlindley]

The above is quite confused.

Without a pakset de-compiler, these old .pak's are useless to build a new pak128.USA ... even if we had a de-compiler, the would would only be beginning.

[Lmallet]

The above is quite confused.

You can say that again  I think we are really seeing two threads here.

Without a pakset de-compiler, these old .pak's are useless to build a new pak128.USA ... even if we had a de-compiler, the would would only be beginning.

I have seen rumours that such a decompiler exists, and is held in a secret tower somewhere.  I also seem to recall that Raven has given permission to use his objects, and since most of the source files have been lost, there might be a legitimate reason to get a hold of the decompiler here.  (all of this needs to be confirmed).  And yes, having used Raven's addons before, they would need to be seriously re-balanced before finding a home in a proper pak128.USA.

Now, there is a drawing style difference between Raven and standard pak128, which also has a few American objects (E and F units).  Maybe decompiling is not the route to take if objects are to be created from scratch.

[jamespetts]

It would not be hard in theory to write a decompiler, given that the source code is public.

[greenling]

Hallo dear Simutransmembers
I find from Raven the new Webside her it´s the Link:
http://128.simutrans.com/raven/main/index.html

Here gives the vehicles out the USA!

greenling

[VS]

I have seen rumours that such a decompiler exists, and is held in a secret tower somewhere.  I also seem to recall that Raven has given permission to use his objects, and since most of the source files have been lost, there might be a legitimate reason to get a hold of the decompiler here.  (all of this needs to be confirmed).

I got all 3 items - paks, decompiler and images. So... I should give this to whom?

[greenling]

VS
before You reextracte the Pictures out the Pakfiles.
Talking with Raven thats he giving the ok to use his modells to build a
new Pak128.usa .
Gives Raven his ok Than sending the Picture and dats on wlindley.
He want build a New pak128.usa .

Greenling

[VS]

I did that already, a long time ago