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Author Topic: Metro - as tram or train?  (Read 45258 times)

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Offline ӔO

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #70 on: July 12, 2010, 05:17:44 AM »
Vienna (Wein), Austria is a bit confusing between the distinction for U-bahn/metro and tram.
U-bahn platforms are very low. Trams are long. Station spacing isn't that different.

Offline Sybill

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #71 on: July 12, 2010, 10:16:38 AM »
In some citys the tram runs underground in the city center and becomes an u-bahn, like in Hannover for example.

Offline sdog

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #72 on: July 12, 2010, 06:08:38 PM »
They avoided the naming problem in hannover by calling it Stadtbahn (city rail).

Wien has a very typical Tram system i think, at least those in districts I to XVI. They're colloquially called Bim by the way.

I think it's still sensible to consider also longer sets with their own right of way as tram, this is rather common in europe and comming to north america. Toronto's Transit city plan will (perhaps) replace the american style Streetcars with modern Tram sets.

I'm a bit doubtful if it will actually be done, it seems like the city planers and politicians are very undecided about public transport here.

Offline Max Cheng

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #73 on: September 09, 2010, 01:32:38 PM »
I think trams should be used as shuttle for heavy-rail system like commuter-metro-rail systems, since trams have a characteristic of low cost and street-running ability. Trains can be an "commuter-metro" for an large area running with fast, short-waiting timetable systems like the real subway. Although that needs a large numbers of subway train, but you can still receiving huge profit from $10K~50K or even more in the first few month if you can arrange a well-done shuttle from station to other urban area around the station. I will suggest bus for city with population less then 10000 because trams are one of the transit systems that drains your cash in a big time if you don't have support from high passanger rate and/or speed bonus.

Offline Freewayman

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #74 on: September 21, 2010, 03:28:50 AM »
Here is my criteria:
High floor - train
Low floor - tram
Therefore metros, aka subway, rapid transit, etc etc etc, is a train because it has an elevated boarding platform.

Offline yoshi

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #75 on: September 21, 2010, 12:39:39 PM »
Here is my criteria:
High floor - train
Low floor - tram
Therefore metros, aka subway, rapid transit, etc etc etc, is a train because it has an elevated boarding platform.

According to your definition,
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Toden-Arakawa-Line_Asukayama.jpg
This is not a tram, as the floor height of this vehicle is 790mm above the rail surface.
  http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Taf_vigonza_pianiga.JPG
And this is a tram.

Weird.  :P

Offline Isaac.Eiland-Hall us

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #76 on: September 21, 2010, 12:48:56 PM »
I think floor height is a good *general* rule, but definitely not definitive...

So, we already have "trains" and "trams"... In my opinion, either:

1. Create a third "light rail" for anything that doesn't fit the above two, or
2. Reconsider "trams" to include anything "light rail", i.e. anything not "trains"...

Offline Freewayman

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #77 on: September 25, 2010, 11:10:40 PM »
Well, had there been no exceptions like that we wont have this thread in the first place now would we

Offline yoshi

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #78 on: September 26, 2010, 03:48:31 AM »
Well, had there been no exceptions like that we wont have this thread in the first place now would we

Well, in Italy, many FS commuter trains are low floor, just because platform height is low. This is not an exception in Italy at least.

German cities, including Stuttgart, Hannover, and Frankfurt am Main, have U-Bahn system which runs partially on-street sections and uses high floor vehilces. In Germany, U-Bahn is usually formed as a result of upgrade of existing tram network. If I remember correctly, there are only 4 cities (Berlin, Hamburg, Muenchen, and Nuernberg) which have U-Bahn system which were originally built as a separate U-Bahn system.


What is called something like "undergraoud railway", is significantly different from city to city. My conclusion is, it depends on where you are.

Which is yours?
http://pak128.jpn.org/underground/

Offline Erik

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #79 on: September 26, 2010, 02:58:10 PM »
This is a difficult poll.

Look to the way you build it with the track and stations. I should say train.
But looking to the way as local transport and the economic build-up of the game. I should say tram.

Actually it deserves a own category. (pff, more category's.)
Perhaps point 2 of Isaac is the best point.

I think floor height is a good *general* rule, but definitely not definitive...

So, we already have "trains" and "trams"... In my opinion, either:

1. Create a third "light rail" for anything that doesn't fit the above two, or
2. Reconsider "trams" to include anything "light rail", i.e. anything not "trains"...


Offline Freewayman

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #80 on: October 17, 2010, 10:07:22 PM »
Well, in simutrans, the platforms are too high for the trams, so all rail vehicles that are too small for train platforms should be trams.
Which brings to mind we could make a platform for trams - half as high as the train ones

pocytac

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #81 on: January 23, 2011, 06:27:05 PM »
They avoided the naming problem in hannover by calling it Stadtbahn (city rail).
That isn't avoiding the problem. "Stadtbahn" is the correct terminology in academic traffic theory.


German cities, including Stuttgart, Hannover, and Frankfurt am Main, have U-Bahn system which runs partially on-street sections and uses high floor vehilces. In Germany, U-Bahn is usually formed as a result of upgrade of existing tram network. If I remember correctly, there are only 4 cities (Berlin, Hamburg, Muenchen, and Nuernberg) which have U-Bahn system which were originally built as a separate U-Bahn system.


In germany academic theory and law divide into three kinds of system.
  • "U-Bahn" / "Hochbahn" (underground / elevated metro) meaning all crossings with streets or other rail systems are level-free and tracks are completely separated from street/car traffic.
  • "Stadtbahn" meaning tracks are completely separated from street/car traffic but can have level-crossings with streets.
  • "Straßenbahn" / "Tram" meaning tracks don't need to be separated from street/car traffic and thus have crossings in same level with streets.
Most important point is, that they all are run under the terms of "BOStrab" ("Straßenbahn-Bau- und Betriebsordnung", "regularities for building and operation of trams"). The first and second layout are usually both named "U-Bahn" despite their unequality in academic theory. So according to german law underground would be considered as "tram".

In germany every kind of transport system that is not a ropeway or conventional railway is run unter the terms of BOStrab, which would include light railway, underground, tram and so on. Basic point is the length of vehicles when running on streets. Those cars must not be longer than 75 meters. Cars with seperated tracks do not have this limitation. But I think - to think in-game - simutrans is not capable of controlling this difference.

The highth of the floor in vehicles is not important. Most U-Bahn trains are high-floor vehicles whereas Tram trains are usually low-level vehicles. But that's not the point to group them. Even the gauge of tracks is insignificant. For example in Frankfurt Stadtbahn and Tram have 1435 mm gauge. In Darmstadt Tram has only 1000 mm gauge. But trams in both cities are nowadays run with low-floor vehicles and were run with high-level vehicles in the past.


In the system of heavy rail there is also something similar to "metro" in germany. It is called "S-Bahn". Best equivalent in english would be local commuter railway I think. Mostly S-Bahn trains run more far into the suburbs than U-Bahn / Stadtbahn / Tram trains. Main difference in Germany is, that U-Bahn / Stadtbahn / Tram systems are run by the cities whereas S-Bahn is generally run by Deutsche Bahn.


Back to simutrans I would consider underground / metro to be both, tram and train. It depends wheter you want to mix tram and metro (then it's tram) or metro and heavy rail (then it's train). For example the "London Underground" would be train. The DLR (to stay in London) would be tram.
In Germany S-Bahn would be train, U-Bahn would be tram even if they have the same gauge of tracks and nearly same width of vehicles.

So thinking in-game I would appreciate if there were tunnels for tram / metro (as tram) in simutrans with faster tracks (could easily be 100 km/h top-speed) and larger vehicles. And thinking about gates for tunnels I find the 130-km/h-tunnels of 128.japan very stylish and useful for that purpose. ;-)

Offline Václav

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #82 on: January 24, 2011, 01:09:34 PM »

This tram looks fine. I wish somebody made it for Simutrans - pak128.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2011, 04:45:18 PM by VaclavMacurek »

Offline whoami

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #83 on: January 24, 2011, 04:24:25 PM »
But I think - to think in-game - simutrans is not capable of controlling this difference.
In Simutrans with the standard pak-set (pak64), train and tram are essentially the same transport system. But it is possible to put all the tram items into a separate system, so they cannot be connected to or combined with train facilities (except crossings, if defined).
However, introducing this change in an existing pak-set makes it incompatible to its previous versions and savegames.

Offline Erik

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #84 on: January 24, 2011, 04:50:20 PM »
No
I think that's not a good idea.
I like that a tram can particularly use the track and stops of a train.
Only thing to prevent is that a train use the tram-track.

Offline gwalch

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #85 on: January 26, 2011, 08:36:34 AM »
If trams and trains are totally separated, where go the "tram-train" ? It exists in many countries, for exemple Germany, or France...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tram-train

I prefer system which not allow trains on tram track (but tram can use trains line...and on that case tram-trains are firstly tram !).
And if it's separated, we have to design new complete set of lights for trams, maybe bridges...

For the metro, it's for me not a tram at all... Maybe it needs new specific category, but for the moment, i am agree with actual system (metro is train)... I think metro on the road is not correct...

Offline sdog

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #86 on: January 26, 2011, 07:26:09 PM »
I prefer system which not allow trains on tram track (but tram can use trains line...and on that case tram-trains are firstly tram !).
And if it's separated, we have to design new complete set of lights for trams, maybe bridges...

Weight limits for ways will soon take care of this problem. There will be some exceptions for really light trains, and it will perhaps not really work to get metros away from tram tracks, but at least you can't run a TGV as metro anymore :-)

pocytac

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #87 on: January 26, 2011, 08:04:11 PM »
[...]but at least you can't run a TGV as metro anymore :-)
Will that also prevent freight trains from using tracks for high speed passanger trains?


BTT:
I think there should be two kinds of metro-like transport system. Something similar to light rail systems belonging to tram (but, if possible with tunnels, bridges and elevated ways for tram tracks) and something similar to large underground, local commuter or local rapid transport system belonging to trains (also with tunnels, bridges and elevated tracks). Maybe the difference could be the height of floor level.

That would not be an precise dipiction of reality but as simutrans is only a simulation and it's complexity can't be completely variable at will we need to cut back at some point. And I think having room to decide whether to build a metro system as tram oder train system and also having all needed stuff to really do so is much more than we have by now.

Offline Václav

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #88 on: January 26, 2011, 08:11:46 PM »
at least you can't run a TGV as metro anymore :-)
Using TGV as metro is totally crazy. I would like to see anyone who uses TGV as metro.  :D

But I often use following trains as metro (and it is the same madness like using TGV):




Czech user TommPa9 created all of them. The first and the third one have already been present in pak128 - but he has made them new - and much better (mainly that double-decked EMU).

Offline sdog

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #89 on: January 26, 2011, 09:55:18 PM »
Quote
Using TGV as metro is totally crazy. I would like to see anyone who uses TGV as metro.
not in simutrans, speed bonus depends on maximum speed not average speed. Only length is a problem. But there are shorter high speed trains.

pocytac

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #90 on: January 26, 2011, 10:05:42 PM »
Using TGV as metro is totally crazy. I would like to see anyone who uses TGV as metro.  :D

I did! I once had a map where I used Shinkansen-Trains als underground because ist simply was the fastest (top-speed in tunnels 280 km/h) and most efficient vehicle in the depot. That's not as mad as you think by now.

Offline Václav

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #91 on: January 26, 2011, 10:54:56 PM »
Using TGV as metro is totally crazy. I would like to see anyone who uses TGV as metro.
not in simutrans, speed bonus depends on maximum speed not average speed. Only length is a problem. But there are shorter high speed trains.

I build metro webs where stations have length 4 tiles - and often they are not quite distant from each other - like on following old screenshot where you can see big underground station and two small stations of metro (the first one is built from London underground add-on stations; the second one is built from the same add-on like big one)


So you see that stations are too close to each other. For this reason I use only classical EMUs instead high speed trains. And still I make money from those trains. Actually used train (the second one from list of photos) can go only 110 km/h - but it can load also post. Transporting of mail in the same one as passengers is better (very often). And capacity of that train with length of 4 tiles is 672 people and 74 mail bags. It is (but I am not sure) the best what you can get.

Offline greenling

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Re: Metro - as tram or train?
« Reply #92 on: February 05, 2011, 05:43:40 PM »
I Find that´s a Splitting Between Railroad and tram then in Simutrans be get new Trouble and problems!
I Have many old´s Addons they then not more work and then be get worthless.
A little example:
Looking on Japanes.simutrans.com all zipfiles form vehicles,way,tunnels and bridge on and looking for whit
Simutransversion be made it!
Those zipfiles then be make than problems1

greenling