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Author Topic: Unifying the Wikies - Community Discussion  (Read 22969 times)

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Offline IgorEliezer br

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Re: Unifying the Wikies - Community Discussion
« Reply #35 on: March 12, 2010, 12:16:56 AM »
IMO, before discussing about administration (once it already exists and is working very well :) ), we need to think of a proper way of getting the material transferred from the old wikies to the new official wiki, the wiki.simutrans-germany.com. Transferring the material is the main issue now. But it doesn't mean we are not allowed to talk about something else; feel free to do so. I just want to not lose the focus on the main issue.

Besides that, server is not address. If the address simutrans-germany.com is a "problem" (would it be?), we can point the wiki.simutrans.com address to the simutrans-germany site (is it possible?); so, all you'll need to do would be typing "wiki.simutrans.com" in address bar, hit ENTER, and you get the Frank's wiki.... and everyone will be happy. :D

Plus, I think it's possible to create the a bunch of *.simutrans.com addresses that point to the simutrans-germany.com sites, just for consistency. For instance, http://nightly.simutrans-germany.com would be just http://nightly.simutrans.com with no need of moving this or that site from a server to another. In fact, the visitors won't care if a site is here or there; they care if the site is easily accessible and is working. But, the address issue is not a priority now.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2010, 12:45:18 AM by IgorTekton »

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Re: Unifying the Wikies - Community Discussion
« Reply #36 on: March 12, 2010, 03:43:39 AM »
Igor, you have pretty much hit the nail on the head in terms of what I was refering to, having to many domain names makes it harder to find things, and makes it more confusing. From a personal example I always somewhat assumed the domain simutrans-germany.com was the german speaking equivalent of this website, not that it refered to the location of the domain name.

as for it not being a priority right now you are correct, but it makes more sence to do it now while there is less chance of loosing stuff then it does to do it in the future. when the wikis are larger and more complex.

Offline z9999+

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Re: Unifying the Wikies - Community Discussion
« Reply #37 on: March 12, 2010, 08:43:02 AM »
@Frank
Is it possible to change top page of wiki ?
Currently, top page of wiki is the index page of German wiki.
I think top page should have a list to index pages of every languages.
So, bread crumb list should be like this.
Quote
top > English > Manual > Getting Started
In this case, we can navigate all wiki contents without Javascript, and we can easily know which language current content is.

As I said before, I hate content negotiation thing which was used before.
It is only useful when all language content are equally served.

So, I like current one because permanent link is working properly.
But navigation is not good as I wrote here...

Offline Zeno

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Re: Unifying the Wikies - Community Discussion
« Reply #38 on: March 12, 2010, 08:54:09 AM »
I will give my sincere opinion on the ideas under discussion:

Ideas and items under discussion:
1) Old material: How to transfer the texts from the old wikies to the new one.
2) Backups: where to do/store in?
3) Backups: How to do?
4) Superadminstration: how will the wiki be administrated ?
5) Server and domain/addresses
1) We need a translator crew to add the new content by hand. Then we need a protocol for adding content.
As example:
- I guess we need a main language as reference, that should be german since it's the most content language currently in the wiki.
- Then need to send Frank or other people he designs to add that content in the reference language.
- When the content is available in reference language, translators can start translating to other languages.
That is only an example of a way of doing it. Maybe there are other ideas. I think it's important to make a more "closed" discussion group for this, with wiki admins and translators. At the end they will be the ones who will do the work.
2) Maybe Frank agrees to send his backups somewhere else for conservation purposes. We should ask him.
3) I'm sure that Frank has a valid backup system. So no discussion here.
4) Frank. Of course. He will decide to change the admin hierarchy if needed. So nothing to discuss here neither.
5) Current servers work fine, no need to change. Maybe pointing wiki.simutrans.com to Frank's server is a good idea. Maybe simple portal with links to the current wiki at simutrans-germany.com does the job.

You'll probably detected I've expressed some ideas in a somehow direct (severe) way: that's because I detect a general assumption (feeling) of Frank's wiki to be converted to official wiki. I would like to express my absolute opposition to that feeling: Frank's wiki *is* Frank's wiki, and if we accept to make it the official one it may be a good idea, but then we *must* accept that the official wiki will continue being Frank's wiki. AFAIK he never agreed to donate his work of many years just because we had a fantastic idea of unifying wikis (actually if I was him I wouldn't). Maybe we should wonder about that before posting our great ideas for free (and it's a critisism for the general situation, not for anyone's particular comment/behaviour).

Offline IgorEliezer br

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Re: Unifying the Wikies - Community Discussion
« Reply #39 on: March 12, 2010, 12:40:48 PM »
that's because I detect a general assumption (feeling) of Frank's wiki to be converted to official wiki. I would like to express my absolute opposition to that feeling: Frank's wiki *is* Frank's wiki, and if we accept to make it the official one it may be a good idea, but then we *must* accept that the official wiki will continue being Frank's wiki.

If something is becoming official, it doesn't mean the owner will donate their stuffs. Calling official is a way of community telling something will be their reference. For instance, Isaac owns this server and he allows us to use this forum and his webspace, even so this forum is an official forum of community.

Also, calling something official is way of separating what deserves our care, attention and support from what doesn't. For instance, there's a Simutrans page on Orkut: whatever may happen there doesn't have to do with us, it's not our responsibility. It's their problem.

Therefore, if Frank's wiki is becoming official, this means the community will give all needed support, will use it as reference and the community will offer this wiki to the public in their official webpages.

And I'm not being severe. ;D

Offline Zeno

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Re: Unifying the Wikies - Community Discussion
« Reply #40 on: March 12, 2010, 12:45:23 PM »
Oh, thanks for the *official* clarification then ;)
It's just that I was worried about the feeling that some roofs were being constructed before the foundations.

Offline z9999+

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Re: Unifying the Wikies - Community Discussion
« Reply #41 on: March 12, 2010, 02:08:31 PM »
The Tikiwiki uses a voice recognition of the browser if the pages are accessed using their names.

It is possible to put another home side forward.

Furthermore, there is the category page, which lists all existing categories.

And then gibs or the page, which lists all structures.

Okay, Tikiwiki can't make a list to index pages of every languages.
Then wiki.simutrans.com must have this list just like current one.

Offline Spike

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Re: Unifying the Wikies - Community Discussion
« Reply #42 on: March 12, 2010, 02:10:33 PM »
You know, one can kill good ideas by discussing them. In the beginning we all agreed that Franks wiki will be a good place for Simutrans documentation and that it will be good to move all content there.

Then people started to pile up demands and complaints. At the moment there is such a high pile of demands and complaints that the basic idea is about to fail - not because it was a bad idea, but because people demand too much perfection.

So either do it, or talk until the idea died.


Offline VS

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Re: Unifying the Wikies - Community Discussion
« Reply #43 on: March 12, 2010, 02:26:37 PM »
...also +1 for that...

Offline sanna

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Re: Unifying the Wikies - Community Discussion
« Reply #44 on: March 12, 2010, 04:06:44 PM »

1) We need a translator crew to add the new content by hand. Then we need a protocol for adding content.
As example:
- I guess we need a main language as reference, that should be german since it's the most content language currently in the wiki.
- Then need to send Frank or other people he designs to add that content in the reference language.
- When the content is available in reference language, translators can start translating to other languages.
That is only an example of a way of doing it. Maybe there are other ideas. I think it's important to make a more "closed" discussion group for this, with wiki admins and translators. At the end they will be the ones who will do the work.

Actually I do not quite agree with this very formal protocol. We are talking about a wiki where translators will work for the fun of it; and I see this protocol as removing most of the fun. Tikiwiki allows translations to be made no matter what the base language was/is; I see no reason why when incorporating material from other wikis, we should await a "reference language" translation in order for other to translate that material into their language of choice. There is also no need for each language page to be an exact translation of another page... the purpose of each page is to give information on how a certain aspect of Simutrans works in the manner most suited for the intended audience.

I would wish that every page that is translated would state on the page itself from which language/page it has been translated and which version of that page. Updates later on should of course update this information. Furthermore, I think it is very important that every page clearly states which stable version of Simutrans that it describes, and that primarily stable versions should be described.

However, something that might be useful is some sort of "badge of officialdom", especially if we talk about having material from the wiki being incorporated/replacing in-game help files. For such pages there might be a need for a more exact translation of a "reference page".

Now I have said my piece in this discussion and I am heading back to the TikiWiki to do some actual translating/adding material; something I would advice you all to do. Lets get some work done, and we will figure out the fine details later. *smile*

Offline Zeno

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Re: Unifying the Wikies - Community Discussion
« Reply #45 on: March 12, 2010, 05:04:31 PM »
I agree with Sanna that the example I used is too rigid, slow and expensive. On the other hand, I can see a "free for all" mode could be too relaxed, and as result we would get the same that we have now (many different wikis), but all in one server.
I really don't know what, but something far from these edges could be nicer. (Writing as I think) maybe some just rules, or a common content structure - folder-like or whatever - for all languages, use of wiki templates to keep same formatting, dunno...
What we all should agree is on making translators work as easy as possible, because in the end it's that work the one we should encourage.

Offline IgorEliezer br

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Re: Unifying the Wikies - Community Discussion
« Reply #46 on: March 12, 2010, 06:59:42 PM »
I don't see a discussion can kill an idea. What can kill the idea are indifference, indisposition and lack of perseverance. The discussion was opened mainly to not let any maintainer, writers and people who'd get interested out of process.

Once the discussion is open, unexpected opinions are quite expected. :D

(I said unexpected opinions, not unpleasant opinions)

I don't know why the grip with Frank's ownership over his server and his work. Isaac owns this server and maintains this forum, and nobody feels uncomfortable for it.

The main idea still remains the same: one wiki in one place for whole community. All community works are voluntary, so I'd adopt a flexible way of editing the wikies. If one feels the wiki for their language is in disadvantage, then start to write. In-game help texts work this way.

Last, I don't see better way to transfer the texts from old wikies to Frank's wike: manually: cut-paste-format-save. After it, blank the page and put a note warning the visitors that the text is now in Simutrans-Germany Wiki. I'd like to hear if there's a better way of getting the texts transferred than above. I wouldn't want to waste the texts on EN-Wiki.


Offline Frank

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Re: Unifying the Wikies - Community Discussion
« Reply #47 on: March 12, 2010, 08:43:48 PM »
.... I'd like to hear if there's a better way of getting the texts transferred than above. I wouldn't want to waste the texts on EN-Wiki.

example page for this

en MW Line Management

en TW Line Management ( text 2006, graphics v0.102.2.1 )

What they mean, text import, or update existing text?

Much has already been written in English 2005/2006. In Mediawiki, it was later posted again. In my opinion there are far fewer new en Mediawiki as there have been at that time in Tikiwiki 2006 were.

to compare
de Line Management
sv Line Management
« Last Edit: March 12, 2010, 08:50:10 PM by Frank »

Offline IgorEliezer br

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Re: Unifying the Wikies - Community Discussion
« Reply #48 on: March 13, 2010, 11:05:28 PM »
I meant text import. :)

I want to be sure that all subjects which MW covers are in TW. If MW has a text that doesn't exist in TW, we need to import it.

Also, maybe both MW and TW cover the same subject, but MW has a deeper and longer text, so we'll need to edit the TW text and erase the MW text.

Topic split. Project NOT DIED!

http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=4681.0