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Offline Dwachs

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Re: German in the code
« Reply #315 on: December 11, 2016, 07:36:17 PM »
I am in the process of translating the besch folder. I have some questions. How to translate the following strings :
Code: [Select]
fabrikbauer_t::ist_bauplatz -> check_construction_site
fabrikbauer_t::finde_zufallsbauplatz -> find_random_construction_site
haus_besch_t::get_h / get_w -> get_x / get_y   (get_height is ambigous here, get_h returns x-size of building)

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: German in the code
« Reply #316 on: December 11, 2016, 08:01:36 PM »
I think that your suggestions are sensible. Thank you for working on this, incidentally.

Offline Dwachs

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Re: German in the code
« Reply #317 on: December 11, 2016, 08:36:54 PM »
More questions:
Code: [Select]
hausbauer -> house_builder??
neues_gebaeude -> build_station_extension_depot ?? - this routine builds stations, extension buildings, and depots
Another possibility would be to split hausbauer into building_manager_t (that manages all the lists of building types) and house_builder_t (that does the construction of buildings on the map).

Edit: What to do with the methods with semi-German names in obj_desc_transport_related_t? For all of them, English equivalents are already available. Change?

Edit2: How to translate skin_besch_t? It is a list of image with associated name and author name...
« Last Edit: December 11, 2016, 09:03:04 PM by Dwachs »

Offline Ters

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Re: German in the code
« Reply #318 on: December 12, 2016, 06:48:29 AM »
Edit2: How to translate skin_besch_t? It is a list of image with associated name and author name...

When encountered on their own, they are mostly images for the GUI, so they are skins. When used as cursors for other types, they are just odd by having their own name and copyright.

Offline Dwachs

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Re: German in the code
« Reply #319 on: January 07, 2017, 04:30:44 PM »
I submitted now a number of commits to translate all the besch and bauer classes. Still there are some things to translate:
How to translate:
Code: [Select]
ware_besch_t -> good_desc_t ?
ware_besch_t::get_preis -> ..::get_revenue ?
warenbauer_t -> good_manager_t ? (in resemblance of good_write_t and good_reader_t)
Should these members be renamed
Code: [Select]
way_desc_t::styp -> systemtype
way_desc_t::get_styp -> get_systemtype ?
After this is finished, I will rename all the files, and the directories
Code: [Select]
bauer -> builder ?
besch -> descriptor ?

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: German in the code
« Reply #320 on: January 07, 2017, 04:38:46 PM »
This is excellent work, and apologies again that I have not had a chance to help with this yet. Most of the above suggestions are sensible, but may I suggest alternatives in two cases:

good_desc_t would be better as goods_desc_t; and

descriptor would be better as base_type, as the concept of a descriptor is of a description rather than a definition, which is not, to my mind, the same thing.

Offline Dwachs

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Re: German in the code
« Reply #321 on: January 07, 2017, 07:16:56 PM »
Why the plural word in goods_desc_t? All other class names use singular forms.

Also 'descriptor' was meant to be the renaming of the besch-directory. In the code, I have translated besch to desc.

Offline An_dz

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Re: German in the code
« Reply #322 on: January 07, 2017, 08:30:37 PM »
Because in English the only word that describe the Simutrans idea of products, manufactured stuff or wares is goods that only exists in plural form.

Offline Ters

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Re: German in the code
« Reply #323 on: January 07, 2017, 10:00:46 PM »
Because in English the only word that describe the Simutrans idea of products, manufactured stuff or wares is goods that only exists in plural form.

For Simutrans, I think the other definition of goods in my Oxford dictionary is the one that applies here (which is called freight in US English according to the same dictionary), but the word is the same and so are the rules. Although I'm not sure they intended their definition ("things carried by trains") to include passengers, although perhaps mail, neither of them fit the first ("things for sale") in modern civilization. Except top athletes, apparently.

Offline Dwachs

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Re: German in the code
« Reply #324 on: January 08, 2017, 10:07:23 AM »
Did not know about this plural thing :) What about
Code: [Select]
ware_t -> freight_t ?

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: German in the code
« Reply #325 on: January 08, 2017, 10:15:37 AM »
Did not know about this plural thing :) What about
Code: [Select]
ware_t -> freight_t ?

Might that not be confusing as "ware" includes passengers?

Offline Vladki cz

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Re: German in the code
« Reply #326 on: January 08, 2017, 11:23:59 AM »
I'm not native english neither german, but for me freight and cargo seem more general than goods (or german waren). But neither would include passengers. OTOH I dont know what word to use that includes passengers, mail and goods together.

I don't know whether t_ware includes pax in simutrans or not.

Offline Dwachs

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Re: German in the code
« Reply #327 on: January 08, 2017, 11:44:29 AM »
The class ware_t refers to stuff loaded into trains, whereas ware_besch_t describes different types of freight/goods. Their translations should somehow reflect this and should be easily distinguishable:
Code: [Select]
ware_besch_t -> goods_desc_t
ware_t -> freight_t, cargo_t?
How should single occurences of goods descriptions be called?
There are methods get_ware in factory descriptions to describe consumed and produced goods. There are also variables of goods descriptors called 'ware'.
How to translate them
Code: [Select]
factory_supplier_desc_t::get_ware -> ??
const ware_besch_t* ware -> const goods_desc_t*  goods_type ??? too long

Offline An_dz

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Re: German in the code
« Reply #328 on: January 08, 2017, 02:15:53 PM »
Why translate ware? Ware is English and fits:

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ware#Etymology_2
http://www.wordnik.com/words/ware

Quote
from The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, 4th Edition

n. An article of commerce.
n. An immaterial asset or benefit, such as a service or personal accomplishment, regarded as an article of commerce.

Offline Ters

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Re: German in the code
« Reply #329 on: January 08, 2017, 04:10:30 PM »
Ware is a word in commerce, not in logistics. Simutrans is generally about logistics. However, there seems to be an issue whether we should translate into British English or American English.

Offline sdog

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Re: German in the code
« Reply #330 on: January 08, 2017, 09:00:24 PM »
Cargo?

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=cargo
Quote
cargo (n.) ´┐╝
1650s, "freight loaded on a ship," from Spanish cargo "burden," from cargar "to load, impose taxes," from Late Latin carricare "to load on a cart" (see charge (v.)).

Offline isidoro

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Re: German in the code
« Reply #331 on: January 08, 2017, 11:42:08 PM »
What about payload or haul?

I'm not a native speaker.  Just found them searching in the web.

Offline An_dz

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Re: German in the code
« Reply #332 on: January 09, 2017, 12:59:17 AM »
Let's just remember that we are translating to help anyone in the world who speaks some English to better understand the code and not to be a dictionary.

Let us stick with more obvious words that non-natives can understand and not just a British can.

So I vote for cargo or goods.

Offline Ters

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Re: German in the code
« Reply #333 on: January 09, 2017, 07:06:31 AM »
I'm leaning towards goods_desc_t and cargo_t. The former isn't really about cargo, although it is about something that exists for the purpose of potentially becoming cargo. Goods feels more right (or less wrong) when dealing strictly with the consumer-supplier relationship.

The legacy warenziel_t should probably follow the cargo rule. warenbauer_t seems more like a goods_type_manager_t (or some would probably argue goods_types) than either goods_builder_t or cargo_builder_t.

Offline Leartin at

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Re: German in the code
« Reply #334 on: January 09, 2017, 07:45:19 AM »
 ??? Isn't the issue Dwachs has that currently, 'ware_t' includes pax, while 'ware_besch_t' does not - and now he is looking for two words that reflect that difference?

However, I don't think a proper umbrella term for both exists - this is because googling for one does give results in logistics literature, but only constructed terms like "transported objects"

Since it obviously makes sense to use two different terms, we would have to redefine one of the many synonyms for goods to include pax, and another to not include pax. As such, my vote is for "goods" to exclude pax and "freight" to include pax.

Reasoning:
to me, freight stresses 'stuff that's transported'. It's secondary what kind of stuff it is, and primary that it gets moved around.
while goods are 'a product, something tangible, something of commercial value' -so primarily a thing.

Technically, factorys can't produce freight. They only produce goods. Technically, if you put people in the back of a truck, they become freight.

Offline Ters

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Re: German in the code
« Reply #335 on: January 09, 2017, 04:44:00 PM »
??? Isn't the issue Dwachs has that currently, 'ware_t' includes pax, while 'ware_besch_t' does not - and now he is looking for two words that reflect that difference?

No. ware_besch_t does also cover passengers and mail (these are both mandatory, the rest are optional and does not have specific logic attached). It is how the revenue and speed bonus are set for them, just like the rest. Each line in the list in the Goods List window corresponds to a ware_besch_t. Come to think of it, that gives something of a precedent for translation of ware in ware_besch_t.

to me, freight stresses 'stuff that's transported'. It's secondary what kind of stuff it is, and primary that it gets moved around.
while goods are 'a product, something tangible, something of commercial value' -so primarily a thing.

Technically, factorys can't produce freight. They only produce goods. Technically, if you put people in the back of a truck, they become freight.

If it matters, freight is apparently an American English word. British English uses goods in both cases, according to Oxford University Press in 1998 at least. But, yes, I agree that freight can not be used for all cases.

Offline prissi

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Re: German in the code
« Reply #336 on: January 11, 2017, 01:15:50 PM »
Since ware is an english word meaning exactly the same as the german one, why not keep it. Keeps for oldtimers like me the understanding of the code the same and possibly also less work for DrSuperGood with his patches ...

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: German in the code
« Reply #337 on: January 11, 2017, 05:44:32 PM »
"Ware" would work for freight, but surely not for passengers?

Offline rainer

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Re: German in the code
« Reply #338 on: January 12, 2017, 01:24:46 PM »
What about "payload"?

Offline prissi

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Re: German in the code
« Reply #339 on: January 12, 2017, 03:20:16 PM »
I would not touch it. Goods and the goods_desc also cover passengers and mail, so ware would have the same logic. Focussing on something which is more German and less easy to understand seems a better use of time.

Offline An_dz

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Re: German in the code
« Reply #340 on: January 12, 2017, 05:08:37 PM »
I agree, ware is also English and it's easy to understand. I'll stress again:

Let's just remember that we are translating to help anyone in the world who speaks some English to better understand the code and not to be a dictionary.

Let us stick with more obvious words that non-natives can understand

Offline Ters

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Re: German in the code
« Reply #341 on: January 12, 2017, 05:16:12 PM »
I do however think that there is some value in using the same terms in the code as is used in the user interface.

Offline Vladki cz

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Re: German in the code
« Reply #342 on: January 12, 2017, 06:43:08 PM »
Perhaps also take into acconunt words used as dat file options

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: German in the code
« Reply #343 on: January 27, 2017, 07:29:06 PM »
I see that a great amount of work has been done on this lately: I have just caught up with getting these translations into Experimental. I notice, however, that, in some cases (e.g. all of the old "besch" classes), the filenames have not been amended whereas the class names have, resulting in filenames being out of sync with class names.

Would it be helpful if I were to submit a patch to rename the files, too? One slight complication to this may be that my Visual Studio project has been modified from the base as I found that I could not get it to compile otherwise (and I am using Visual Studio 2015).

In the meantime, I will see if I can submit a patch for some of the miscellaneous translations in Prissi's post above that have yet to be implemented.

Edit: Further to my earlier post, here is a patch to translate welt to world (including renaming the existing world() function to get_world() to avoid clashes).
« Last Edit: January 27, 2017, 08:24:51 PM by jamespetts »

Offline Dwachs

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Re: German in the code
« Reply #344 on: January 29, 2017, 05:12:52 PM »
I planned to do the renaming after all classes have been translated. Got stuck at translating the ware stuff.

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: German in the code
« Reply #345 on: January 29, 2017, 05:47:58 PM »
Would it be easier if I were to leave the translating to you, or would it be helpful if I were to submit more translation patches? I am more than happy to help but I do not want to spend time on this if it will not be useful.

Also, what difficulty are you having with translating the ware classes?

Offline Dwachs

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Re: German in the code
« Reply #346 on: January 30, 2017, 08:07:40 AM »
It would be enough to suggest / discuss translations. The patching itself is then an easy (still time-consuming) task. The difficulty was to find translations that reflect the use in the program and still correspond to real-life English.

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: German in the code
« Reply #347 on: January 30, 2017, 11:30:55 AM »
Ahh, I see. Is the welt/world patch above useful? What difficulties were you having in the ware_t classes?

Offline Ters

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Re: German in the code
« Reply #348 on: January 30, 2017, 05:16:02 PM »
Have you forgotten the big discussion about those already?

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: German in the code
« Reply #349 on: January 30, 2017, 08:34:40 PM »
Quite possibly: I have done a lot of work on Experimental in the meantime. Perhaps we should mark out the problematic keywords, set them aside with a discussion with a deadline for a decision and a voting mechanism to allow for a majority decision, and in the meantime work on the easier keywords?

Would it help if I were to suggest more translations?