Mail transport on tramway

[AvG]

Exp 7.3 in year 1833.
Using the re-ordered towngrowth-factors 400,200,100 , max_passenger_wait-time 19440, passenger_factor=14.
Cities (1000-10000) still are growing very fast (probably no difference because it is the middle one) ~150/MONTH. This is IMHO unrealistic.
I have lots of short-distance passengers(logical). More than I can handle.
In 1833 there is only one vehicle available and useable for passengertransport in town : the omnibus (15 km/h to fast in town)
In a town of 10000 inh I have 48 omnibuses and 9 mailcoaches running with a load of 95-100%. It is becoming a great standstill operation. So I developed a horsetram-system, which should bring some relief.(first horse-tram in 1806)
For passengers it is working now, allthough the horse is sometimes walking behind and on top of the tramcarriage.
I also have a lot of mail for all distances.
Also a quick design for a mail-tram-car, but that does not work.
I have the impression that Exp7.3 does not permit mail-transport per tramway.
Can anybody confirm?
AvG

[jamespetts]

AvG,

thank you for your reports: most useful. In the next release, I shall be setting the town growth factors as follows, given that town growth is consistently too high:

Code Select Expand


growthfactor_villages = 1000
growthfactor_cities = 600
growthfactor_capitals = 300


Have a go with that setting and see what you find.

As to the other issue: there is no specific restriction on mail transport on tramways in Simutrans-Experimental. Can you upload your mail tram .dat files...?

[AvG]

James,
I understand that the higher the factor the smaller the growth.
What are you aiming for? Should it be possible to play for 300 years?

Mailtransport on tramways. I also noticed that my horses, allways capable of carrying 1 mailbag, could not use this capacity on a tramway.
But please have a look into the dat-file. The Tram-horse is working OK on the passenger-car.
AvG

[jamespetts]

For town growth, I am aiming for something as close to reality as possible, and, yes, it should be possible to play for 300 years if people want, but also for shorter periods if that's desired.

The mail issue is interesting. I've never tried to carry mail on tramways before. Certainly, there is nothing (intentionally) Simutrans-Experimental specific about the point. Have you checked to see whether this also applies to Simutrans-Standard?

[sanna]

I apologize for stating the obvious... but you have not possibly forgotten to add mail capacity to the stops the trams visit?

[AvG]

James/Sanna

All my roadstops have a combined mail-capacity, which works fine.

Made a quick check on the latest Standard situation.
Conclusions:

-In Standard:  Mail-transport on tramways is POSSIBLE. Also tramlocs can carry a small amount of mail.

-Standard is a lot brighter and therefore easier to play. In Pak-Britain it seems to be allways nightfall.

-They have sound in Standard.

-Easy save/load order. Latest entry on top. IMHO better than Exp7.3

AvG

[Václav]

I am sorry for disturbing ...
May be that is transportation of post by trams available ... but in main pak128 or openpak128 is not any such tram.

[AvG]

I made in the past several tram-vehicles for the years 1900-1930.
The pricing and yield are balanced for DRC (Dutch Reality Connection)
They worked very well in the Standard-environment.
AvG

[AvG]

James,
Using your new growth_factors means starting allover again.
If you can solve the mail-tram-problem I have to restart another-time.
So I better wait to be able combining these 2 matters.
In the meantime I will continue my current Exp7.3 scenario. With the new passenger_wait time (19440) it is a lot better playing, but you have to be still very carefull.

What is exactly the effect of the growth-factors? Will doubling the factor result in halving the growth? If I know this I can experiment myself with different factors.

I hope you can solve the mail-problem, because it is realy needed in +10K cities.
AvG

[jamespetts]

AvG,

to double check Sanna's point - which stops are you using? Can mail road vehicles complete a line between the same stops as the trams refuse to use?

[AvG]

James,
Yes, yes, yes.
In fact in this situation the tramline is the same route as the road-vehicles.
It is NOT the problem that the tram-vehicles will not pick up Mail.
In the DEPOT is the problem. Here are no Mail-vehicles showing up.
AvG

[jamespetts]

Ahh  I see! Didn't realise that the issue was the depot. Is this behaviour different in Standard, then?

[Václav]

I have not downloaded any post-transporting trams (because I don't know where to do that) ... but post-transporting vehicles (regardless of waytype) are showed in the same group as passenger vehicles - but on end of vehicles' list. That is statement of Standard release. And if I noticed well, statement of Experimental release is the same.

[AvG]

James,
I think the behaviour is basicly the same in Exp7.3 versus Standard.
Fot some reason the Exp7.3-Tram-Depot does not recognise Post and will not show the mail-vehicles.
I am 99% sure the .dat-file is allright.
AvG

Edit: VaclavMacurek: The post-transporting are not released yet.  When the problem is solved I can if there is interest.

[Václav]

Fot some reason the Exp7.3-Tram-Depot does not recognise Post and will not show the mail-vehicles.

Ouch ... That would be problem. So I hope this will be solved very soon, not only inside Experimental ... but also in Standard. I am not good in creation of vehicles (else I could try to make some ones) but post-trams are invited regardless of I use trams very rarely (because my main vehicles are buses and trolleybuses), mostly for connection of webs of city mass transit - inside one city.

[AvG]

In Standard it is no problem. My vehicles work there. (only 1900-1930 vehicles)

On second thought it might also be related to the tramway I use. This is not Exp7.3 (not existing in 1830). It is derived from Standard.
I will include the .dat-file I use here. Maybe the entry for waytype=tram_track causes the problem.
AvG

[jamespetts]

I'm slightly confused: are you saying that, in identical conditions, Simutrans-Standard does show a mail tram vehicle in a tram depot, whereas Simutrans-Experimental does not? Could you perhaps create a Simutrans-Standard saved game in which you can build mail trams so that I can see if I can reproduce this...?

[neroden]

In Pak-Britain it seems to be allways nightfall.

I have to agree unfortunately; the colors are simply too muted in pak.Britain.  Even on the brightest setting (which I have to leave on permanently; night settings are unplayable) they can get washed out by ambient light in the room.  This may be a pain to redo though, as it involves re-rendering *everything* in the pak.

-They have sound in Standard.

This is a pak compilation error in Experimental, the sound is in the repo.

[AvG]

James,
Just to prevent misunderstandings: Simutrans Standard has in 1920 no tram-vehicles. I am talking about DRC-vehicles running in Standard.
I made a quick setup of Standard running in 1920.
Had to add:
-Busstop with mail-cap
-Plated tramway
-Tram-loc (with small mail-cap)
-Mail-tram-car
I will add the 4 .Pak-files in a zip.
The scenario is running good, but very little mail is generated. The mail however that is generated is and will be transported.
AvG

If you still want the sve-file I will upload it in the german-simutrans.

[jamespetts]

AvG,

I'm not sure that I understand: Simutrans-Standard doesn't have vehicles: it is paksets that have vehicles. If you run Simutrans-Standard with a pakset that has a tram vehicle that carries mail, does it appear in the depot in Simutrans-Standard? I need to know whether the behaviour is different in Experimental to Standard to know whether to investigate this as a bug or move the topic to a different subforum.

[AvG]

James,
Thought I made it clear in my last entry.
The answer on your question is yes; the mail-vehicles appears and will carry mail.
This is what I did for my last entry:
Take Simutrans-Standard with the Standard 128-Pakset.
Add the four pak-files I added as a zip in my last entry. (made with Makeobj47)
Run a map in 1920 and see for yourself that mail will be transported by tram.

The same mailcar, but made with Makeobj-Exp73, will not show up in the tramdepot in Exp-7.3.
Also a tramhorse, originally with a small mailcap, only became visible after removing the mail-cap.
AvG

[jamespetts]

AvG,

I've just tested your setup with Simutrans-Experimental 8.0 (pre-release) and Pak128 with your addons: your steam mail tram and trucks appear in the depot, and mail is happily transported on the tramway in a small town.

[AvG]

James,
That is very good news.
Is that pre-release already to download somewhere? I am a little bit demotivated to go on with the existing one. Feels like wasting time.
Thanks anyway for your efforts.
AvG

[jamespetts]

AvG,

the pre-release version is available only as source code. I am hoping to have the final version ready within about a week, excepting any unforeseen delays. However, I have not changed anything between 7.3 and 8.0 that might affect this; indeed, having just tested with 7.3, I get identical results, so I do not quite understand the problems that you are having.

[AvG]

James,
Thanks for your efforts. It is still not running here.
I am a bit short in time.
My son is over from Italy and we are due to move in a month, so I have to make preparations in our new appartment.
On a sideline I will check everything again and report the results.
AvG

[jamespetts]

AvG,

thank you for your work. I'm not sure why it's not working for you; do you run Windows or Linux? Perhaps you could upload a saved game...? In any event, I understand that you are short on time - have fun preparing the apartment!

[AvG]

Hi James,
Just saw that Exp8.0 is available. Great. Thank you. Try to make some time for it.

In my last entry I told you I had to work on preparations for moving to our new appartment. After one day of work I had to go to the hospital for an emergency-admission (leaking artery).I just had time enough to grab my wife's laptop, put Simutrans-stuff on a memorystick and off I was.
Of course it turned out to be not the Simu-stuff I wanted (hurry), but I could do at least something.
I had at my disposal:
- SimutransExp6.6. It was installed on my main PC and running fine on Windows XP.
A 1 on 1 copy on the laptop would not work at all. The suggestion to make a new install (so unpacking the Exp6.6Complete) also would not start.
Question: Does Simutrans-Exp need special measures when installed on a laptop?

- Standard Simutrans.
The next and last item on my stick was the latest Simutrans Standard version.
Also a 1 on 1 copy from my PC and it worked OK.

Conclusions after playing many hours:
- Simutrans on a laptop without a mouse is difficult to play. Placing roadstops, laying ways, making lines, etc is a very peculiar operation, probably due to the sensitity of the "finger-pad".
- Compared to Exp, Standard seems to be a different game. No problems of vanishing passengers, passengers traveltime, etc. All the matters that make Exp difficult, but VERY interesting, are not involved. I got the idea that Standard is usefull for learning purposes, but after some time it is getting to easy and (at least to me) it is getting a little boring.
So please James, keep up the good work on Exp.

- Starting year.
A simple question: Is it usefull to start in 1750?
Until ~1810 nothing happened in reality. It means 60 years in which you have only a few horse-driven road- and rail-vehicles. To me not a very interesting time-periode.
I bring up this matter because I have a large .xls file in use for calculating prices and maintenance. It is starting now in 1900 and dealing with a.o. inflation, productivity, new technologies, experience, etc.
I want to expand this file on the frontside (early years).
I can start in 1800, which is probably easier, or in 1750.
Is there a real existing interest in the era 1750-1800.

- Reversing.
IMHO reversing of big steam-locs (meant for driving in one way) should be only possible if the station has a turn-table (expensive). Actually the station also should have double track, but that might be dificult to implement. The extra result of this would be the neccessity of tenderlocs like it was in real life.

- Industries.
With lots of interest I have read your discussions with DoR on industries.
These ideas are highly in line with my ideas on f.i. town-growth.
Towngrowth could mean f.i. a bakery at 1000 inh, a butcher at 2000 inh., etc.
A town needs 0,5 bread/inh per day. If that condition is not fullfilled > no growth or even shrink. Such conditions can be defined for all "industries" and will result in the necessity of a lot a small realistic transport.
These negotions should be in the center of the town. Maybe it is possible to change commercial buildings into such a negotion.
AvG

[stmaker]

Mail Tram o.o

Does it exist anywhere?

[jamespetts]

AvG,

thank you for your interesting replies, and very sorry that you've been unwell - I hope that you are better now. I am very glad that you find Simutrans-Experimental (even an old and somewhat buggy version 6.6) interesting and engaging: it is most gratifying to know that all the effort is paying off. As to the techincal issues - there are no special requirements for installing Simutrans-Experimental on a laptop. As far as the software is concerned, there is no difference between a laptop and a desktop. As to it being difficult to use the pad - I find those difficult to use for most things: a lot of laptop users have portable mice for that reason.

There is a lot more to the 1750-1820 era than horse-drawn carriages: in the UK at least, that period was a boom time for canals. In previous times, because of how difficult that it was to transport effectively over land, boats were the primary means of transport of anything heavy. Large ports would become thriving centres of commerce, and that commerce would extend down rivers as river boats brought the trade inland. London is a particularly prominent example of such maritime trade continuing along rivers.

By the 1750s, the idea of building artificial rivers - canals - to link places hitherto unconnected with the river network was gathering momentum, and, in the next seventy or so years, a vast network of canals were built that revolutionised trade and brought their backers great wealth. It was only with the invention of the steam railway locomotive that canals finally, in the middle of the 19th century, began to give way to competition, but canals were still active for trade right up into the twentieth century.

Canals are currently implemented in Pak128.Britain, and there have been discussions (see here) to give them more depth and historical accuracy, to make the canal period far more interesting than it currently is, with larger types of canal, capable of handling larger vessels, emerging as time goes by. So, to answer your question, it is indeed useful to start in 1750 - indeed, if one were to simulate the pre-canal sea and river transport networks, one might usefully start in 1700 or even 1600.

As to reversing, the real difficulty with having to have turntables is that Simutrans has never simulated any form of shunting operation. It would be somewhat anomalous to require a turntable to turn a steam locomotive without actually having the graphic for the locomotive uncoupling from the train, going to the turntable, turning around, and recoupling to the train, all of which would add more micromanagement (and enormous complexity for coding) than is desirable. Furthermore, why require turntables for steam locomotives and not, say, also require a runaround loop for locomotive hauled trains (but not multiple units)? Once one starts getting into operational detail of that sort, there may be no end to it, and Simutrans (either Standard or Experimental) has never attempted to do that. The existence of operational details such as turntables and runaround loops are assumed rather than simulated, and tender locomotives simply take longer to reverse to simulate the fact that the reversing time must include being turned on a turntable as well as running around their stock. This incentivises the use of tank locomotives on trains with shorter runs.

As to the industries - what do you mean by "negotion"?

[AvG]

James,
I thought that negotion was an english term for a smaller commercial business. It sounds english to me, but apparently it is not.
Hope the rest of the entry is clear to you.
AvG

[jamespetts]

AvG,

no, I've not heard the word "Negotion" before, and it doesn't register in Firefox's spell checker. There's a word "negotiation", but that means a discussion with a view to reaching an agreement or compromise; that is the closest word in English of which I can think.

[skreyola]

Negligible, as in amounts?

I think the idea of food requirements is a good one, but it should be optional, so that people trying to do pass/mail only don't have to fool with industry at all.