Vanishing trees

[JackVerheydt]

I have been fighting a problem for a long time: I love to border my rivers, roads and railroad tracks with single or double rows of trees on both sides, but to my consternation I have to replace them every day, as Simutrans automatically removes whole swatches at a time. A while ago I posted something about it on the Forum, but I was told that it was probably hard-wired into the game.
I am much perturbed by this, because it is a major feature of my games, which makes them look much more attractive. It is a wonderful sight to see the vehicles disappear into leafy lanes and tunnels, and then reappear again. Could someone please offer the players the choice of leaving the trees where they intend them to be, not just a choice between trees or no trees at all? With the exception of tiles where trees are clearly impossible or illogical, of course, like where the tile already contains a building, for instance. In other instances one at least gets a warning that certain objects cannot be placed there, but with the trees you are permitted to unsuspectingly place them first, only to have them removed when you are not looking. What's the use of having all these beautiful tree types, when you can only scatter them here and there in an otherwise bare landscape ? I shall try to append some screenshots showing what I mean about the fate of the trees (before and after), but don't know how to.
Having to reinstall all the trees is an enormous task every day, undoing much of the pleasure of the simulation, as one cannot use the time to be really creative building other things. I would be very grateful if somebody could either undo this hidden rule (like so many other functional details nothing about it is mentioned anywhere in the manual anyway) or at least hint at a way to undo this, giving the player's creativity and imagination more room. Donquixote.

[An_dz]

I never seen this problem before. I do add lots of trees on my games too and they stay there.
May I ask when it occurs? I mean every time you load the game again, every starting month?

And what Simutrans version and pakset you're using?

[JackVerheydt]

I don't know when this occurs. I never see it happen; it occurs sneakily behind my back. I guess it happens sometime between quitting, and restarting the next day. I am using vs. 102.2.2 with Pak 128.
I posted about this problem before (see "Trees" of 8/27, also under Help Requests) but the only reply was that it was probably hard-wired into the game. I wrote Prissi, complaining about this situation, and asking him to at least modify this so that the player could decide for himself where he wanted trees, but I guess the developers are not going to do anything about this. So it is arbitrary, and you have no choice; very disappointing, as it takes away much of the pleasure in creating one's landscape. By the way, are you, too, planting trees right next to roads, railroad tracks or rivers ? That is where the problem occurs. Thanks in advance for any support or suggestions you can give me. Jack Verheydt a.k.a. Don Quixote.

[Spike]

Trees are simulated plants in Simutrans. They grow, seed new trees nearby, age and die. So after a while they will be gone, but if there were free grass squares nearby, then there is a chance that newly seeded trees start growing there.

So even if you plant a tree as a player, it will not stay forever. It lives, seeds new trees and will die some day. (Trees live faster in Simutrans than in real world. But I have forgotten how long the generation cycle is. Prissi can answer that.)

[An_dz]

I add dense forest on rivers, roads and also in other parts of my map but it never was deleted, I already saw they grow, die, but always in a normal cycle.

You need to tell us when this happen. The way you're talking whole forests disappear every time you load game. Please do some tests and tell us clearer how to reproduce it. It looks like you're the first to talk about it and we have no clue where's the error. Sometimes it can be a config file. When you find how to reproduce it, try downloading Simutrans again and rename, delete or move the Simutrans folder in your "My documents" folder, and try to reproduce it.

As prissi told in old topic they live for 43 years, but new trees should grow where the old ones were. So it's strange to think that all trees disappear instantly.

On a pak96.comic game I play, I needed to remove some trees cause they were growing over the street. They were looking really strange.

[JackVerheydt]

The trees are practically fully grown when I plant them. They only change color and size with the passing of the seasons, if memory serves me right, on 1/1, 4/1, 6/1 and 10/1.
No trees seem to spring up or grow spontaneously in my landscapes; I always plant them myself, either one by one (5 per tile) in parallel rows to the roads, tracks and rivers, or sometimes in whole rectangles at once in that location by using Plant Forest in Public Service. The game starts removing them in whole rows at a time after a little while, and then progressively. Every day after starting up, I use a train for making a complete trial circuit, and every time more rows of trees have gone since the last time, which I notice as soon as the train passes them. I have never seen trees grow visibly. I am convinced that this is clearly a matter of location. This is what Prissi must have meant when he said it might be hard-wired into the game. The trees only disappear when I plant them right next to my roads, tracks and rivers. The other trees behind them are left untouched, thus creating a bare space of 1 or 2 rows of tiles alongside the roads, tracks and rivers. If this does not give you a clear picture, I will try and send you some screenshots showing the situation before and after somehow, either as attachments to an e-mail, or by YouSendIt, and also . Jack a.k.a. Don Quixote.

[An_dz]

I've done some tests here, the trees die between 50 years. I guess you're playing with fast forward.
Another test was advancing the time by 1 year, the trees were with 500 years, near day 20 of next month they died.
It's cool trees have a life time, but no trees grow. They only start to die and don't reproduce. My map became a desert. I can't find a solution for you.

I think that trees should have a cycle, not talking about if they have 1 tile they die or more they grow. I think that trees should stay in their tiles forever but cycling between ages. Better explanation: When a tree on the tile is near its end, a new tree, exactly the same tree type, should start growing inside the tile. So forest will never die and will look different while playing the game.

[prissi]

Trees consume much time due to their number. Thus they will check their status only when a season change is pending, which depends on you map settings.

Trees will reproduce in the 512th month. If you skip this by jumping years: to bad, they will die in month 704.

[JackVerheydt]

I think that trees should have a cycle, not talking about if they have 1 tile they die or more they grow. I think that trees should stay in their tiles forever but cycling between ages. Better explanation: When a tree on the tile is near its end, a new tree, exactly the same tree type, should start growing inside the tile. So forest will never die and will look different while playing the game.

I agree with you 100%, An-dz, and I still hope that somebody will pick it up and do something about this problem. I don't want to have to wait dozens of (game?) years to see my trees come back and then disappear again. Who thought of this unreasonable rule, or more likely side-effect anyway? Even in real nature trees stay around longer; it is only man who chops them down where he does not want them, like when he thinks they're in his way etc. I think this rule has been automatically misapplied by the program here, and I still suspect that it's really all about their location next to tracks etc., not about their age; after all, these are trees that have just been planted and so are young yet. They usually last only a short time, whereas the others in the game stay around. We are looking at the wrong cause, I think.
Thanks for your interest, though, and for trying to help. By the way, if that would make sense at all (Prissi does not seem to think so), when and where should I advance or skip one or more (game?) years and how should I do it ? When saving a game maybe ? I am not sure I understand. Jack Verheydt, a.k.a. Don Quixote.

mod note: please avoid the use of text formatting (like colors, bold, CAPS LOCK and font size) when it makes the reading difficult or when it is not necessary. To make reference to other's comments, use quote tags instead.
~vilvoh

[prissi]

The current nighly works perfectly well when tested over 400 years with fast forward.

Did you test it?

[Dwachs]

Do you play with activated AI companies? They could destroy trees while building. If they fail to complete their route the demolish it again, so you may not have noticed the building activities.

[An_dz]

The current nighly works perfectly well when tested over 400 years with fast forward.

Did you test it?

No, I tried, but my CPU is low and even with fast forward set 1000 it gets 10s to pass a month. 50 years will take 1h 40m.
But testing now.

[prissi]

I rahter think the default brake at 50 acceleration is kicking in. Editing simuconf.tab, you can probably set much higher values for fast forwar.

[JackVerheydt]

You guys are losing this old amateur. No, I am not playing with fast forward,  acceleration, nightlies or activated AI companies. I am just trying to build a landscape for a nice solitary simulation. I only want to see my trees stay where I put them. Like I said before, I don't think this has anything to do with the age of the trees, but with their location and an arbitrary misinterpretation and misapplication by the program. I guess only the designers could do something about this. I certainly do not know how to break into the program's code myself.
Just manually replaced a couple of hundred trees again; sure getting desperate with no solution in sight. If I didn't find Simutrans as fascinating as I do, I would go back to my wargames and other simulations. I have a lot more questions and even constructive suggestions for Simutrans, but because of Isaac's requirement, I would have to post oodles of separate questions, and at 80, I might not live that long..... I appreciate your efforts, though. Please don't think I am ungrateful. Jack Verheydt a.k.a. Don Quixote.

[Dwachs]

Can you update a savegame somewhere? at http://files.simutrans-germany.com for instance.

A savegame, where you put trees and they are not gone yet.

[prissi]

The problem with games started NOT with a recent nightly trees will mostly die after 40 year to be recovered after 80 years. This was due to an uneven population at the beginning. THis is now fixed.

[JackVerheydt]

You say the problem is now fixed, but in the latest version (102.2.2) it still occurs. Or do you mean it will  no longer occur in the next version to be released? JackVerheydt.

[sdog]

Mr Verheydt,

as i understood the bug is fixed in the latest nightly version of simutrans:
Version: 102.3 revision 3999.

The version you mentioned, 102.2.2, is the latest stable version, revision 3129, which was released in march.

During development the code is compiled in regular intervals and so called nightly releases are available. But as the development is progressing all the time they have two problematic aspects:
The version changes very quickly, possibly breaking compatibility to older savegames (rare).
During development bugs are introduced and not found immediately, they can surface in the nightlies and cause errors. (realistic chance)

After having implemented important features in the development version, it is customary to call a feature stop and concentrate on debugging. When this phase if finished succesfully a new stable version is released.

Comparing the revision numbers, posted above, can tell you quite some time and a lot of new changes have been made to the code inbetween.

In general the nightly version of simutrans work quite well, and relatively stable. So if they run for you, you can very well try them out. Binaries, eg. executable files, can be downloaded here. However there could always be a bug, so if somethings not working properly don't get too dissapointed -- after all it's work in progress. (There is also a recent problem with new nightlies not running on some windows system, if this happens to you just tell it here and hopefully someone will point you to a version that will)

best regards,
sdog

[JackVerheydt]

Hello Dwachs:

Have just uploaded my latest savegame to the address you suggested, although I do not know what Germany has to do with it, but it is a nice site and ideal for the purpose. Hopefully the game should be accessible to you there. Last time I looked, it still had all the trees I planted bordering railroads, roads and rivers. If any are gone, they must have been removed by the game in the meantime. I suggest you take a passenger train at, say, t=250, from Aldbourne all the way around and back there. That covers almost the whole map. If you look around, you'll see what I have done. I hope this is of some use. JackVerheydt a.k.a. donquixote.

[DirrrtyDirk]

If you uploaded a file there, it would be quite useful to post the link to the file as well. On the other hand, manually checking through the files, I cannot find any savegame from you there. So I guess the upload was not successful...?

And you still didn't answer the question wether you're still trying with 102.2 or use a nightly (as you would have to do if you wanted to see any old bugs fixed).

[JackVerheydt]

Hello Dwachs and Dirrty Dirk:
Have just uploaded my sve. into Simutrans.germany again, and assuming that that's what you mean by link, I have entered the filename in Info. OK ?
Also, you can see from previous posts that I am using 102.2.2, not some nightly. If I have to do that, should I start a whole new folder and load one or both versions into that, followed by copying the pak etc.? JackVerheydt a.k.a. Donquixote.

[An_dz]

To use a nightly just enter here. Go to your OS section. Let's take Windows as example. There is a 2x2 table. On the first square download one of the 2 links. Now extract the file inside Simutrans folder and run the extracted file. I hope I helped.

[prissi]

It also applies for games started in a new nightly. The age of trees is saved. THus the uneven age distribution will persist of old games.

[DirrrtyDirk]

Hello Dwachs and Dirrty Dirk:
Have just uploaded my sve. into Simutrans.germany again, and assuming that that's what you mean by link, I have entered the filename in Info. OK ?

No, there is still not a single .sve file there that was uploaded in December. And no, a link is e.g. a http adress like, e.g. http://forum.simutrans.com/ and you should post the one pointing to your sve file (once you succeed in actually uploading it) here.

Also, you can see from previous posts that I am using 102.2.2, not some nightly.

Actually this appears to be a general problem. Ok... you use a version you found a bug in. You come here asking for it to be corrected. So the dev. team has to change something in the code to get rid of the problem. But if you never use the newer program version with these corrections and code changes... how do you expect your problem to ever be solved? The release version of 102.2 is still unchanged and will forever remain so, since every (I repeat: every) change to the code, also changes the version number. Today's actual version says 102.3-4011. And by tomorrow this number will rise again if anything in the code is changed before night.

[JackVerheydt]

I keep trying to upload my latest sve.game in simutrans.germany.com. I have just done so again. Maybe it finally becomes visible. I have identified it as well as I could. JackVerheydt.

[DirrrtyDirk]

Now there is a file. Still no link though, but I'll do that for you (this time):

http://simutrans-germany.com/files/upload/Intercity2Map11b48181214.sve