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Author Topic: New Industry Suggestion  (Read 28186 times)

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Offline 123abc

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Re: New industry suggestions?
« Reply #35 on: April 01, 2011, 03:25:10 AM »
With Nuclear Plants, where will the waste go?

Offline Václav

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Re: New industry suggestions?
« Reply #36 on: April 01, 2011, 07:19:19 AM »
Ajajaj ... 123abc, such chain is on blacklist ... but you can download similar chain (but less transportation of waste) this here.

I think about following chain (certainly on edge of forbidden ones):

1:
(Auction house?) -> NewArt -> Castle /Gallery/
Castle /Gallery/ -> DamagedArt -> ArtRenewalOffice
ArtRenewalOffice -> NewArt -> Castle

2:
(Auction house?) -> NewHistoricalWeapons /for example swords/ -> Castle
Castle -> DamagedHistoricalWapons -> ArtSmith
ArtSmith -> NewHistoricalWeapons -> Castle

3:
(Auction house?) -> NewHistoricalArmors -> Castle
Castle -> DamagedHistoricalArmors -> ArtSmith
ArtSmith -> NewHistoricalArmors -> Castle

Offline VS

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Re: New industry suggestions?
« Reply #37 on: April 01, 2011, 08:51:59 AM »
Water plants - not really possible under current system. Same for "booster" fertilizer. Well, we can hope that maybe in the future, some changes will finally allow this :)

I think LNG is already extracted as gas?

Offline Václav

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Re: New industry suggestions?
« Reply #38 on: April 01, 2011, 10:13:23 AM »
I also think we need nuclear industry, with Uranium mines and Nuclear Plants...
Read my previous post in this topic.

Quote
For the future era, how about Deuterium platforms (replacing Oil platform) and Fusion Plants?
Seems be interesting but it is not so simple. :-[ Also you need common hydrogen, tritium and lithium. :-X And also you need to choose construction type. I wait that toroidal reactor (classical Tokamak) would be used because this way has the best results but this is a bit irrelevant question because reactor, itself, is covered by concrete shelter - like in nuclear fission power plants.  ;)

Offline sdog

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Re: New industry suggestions?
« Reply #39 on: April 01, 2011, 04:59:40 PM »
The mass of deuterium needed shouldn't be quite high, not making it interesting for a transport simulation.

Biomass/Biofuel could be an interesting new chain or group of chains.

Offline Václav

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Re: New industry suggestions?
« Reply #40 on: April 01, 2011, 07:46:53 PM »
About deuterium: I think that closer to reality would be only source of heavy water (it can be placed on water like oil rig) and transportation of it to fusion power plant - but it does not change anything about need of low transportation fee.

-->
To Admins:
There are some other similar topics in board of Pak128. It would be good if they would be merged into one - because it is very useless to have opened more than one such topic.

These topics can be merged with this
New chains ideas
New Industry chain ideas

Offline Djohaal

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Re: New industry suggestions?
« Reply #41 on: April 09, 2011, 02:09:25 AM »
I have some industry chains in my head which will guide my building painting operations. At the moment I have the following chains in mind:

Metallurgy:

Bauxite mine -> Aluminium plant -> Foundry (add steel from default chain) -> metal goods.

This would be an early goods plant being buildable from the 1880's ownards (1888 was when the first commercial grade aluminium production plant opened up).

Plastic goods:

Plastics + Chemicals -> Plastic goods plant -> Plastic goods

This one would show up after 1950 or so, to symbolize the plastics revolution.

An extra step would be added for chemicals production, or perhaps having it as a dedicated (and smaller) branch of refineries. Maybe it could accept other raw materials too ("Chemical minerals" as an umbrella term. I recall capitalism II had such raw materials to produce lots of stuff)

A cute chain that transport tycoon deluxe had was water supply (For desertic cities, although simutrans atm is a wee bit too verdant on most paksets), it was a simple two-stop chain starting at a water supply and ending at a water tower, but it always made me go d'aww like an idiot  ;D

I'm thinking about adding a pharmaceutics chain too, but it'd feel weird to have huge trains shipping tons and tons of medication to small pharmacies. I'm considering doing an experimental approach to it, I'll discuss it later.

On deuterium, heavy water is produced by a very large scale process where it has to be separated from normal water (wiki says the deuterium-to-normal-water ratio is about 1:3200). In sync with the idea I tossed for a water chain this would be a funny use for pristine mineral water, and having a factory that has a ratio of 32000% would be hillarious   ;D As a side-note it is used as a moderator for plutonium fission reactors too. Fusion reactors can run on "normal" hydrogen, however they produce dirty reactions that bleed neutrons, which can transmute neraby stuff and turn it into low grade nuclear waste.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2011, 02:22:16 AM by Djohaal »

Offline Václav

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Re: New industry suggestions?
« Reply #42 on: April 13, 2011, 09:02:35 PM »
Metallurgy:

Bauxite mine -> Aluminium plant -> Foundry (add steel from default chain) -> metal goods.
I saw bauxite mine as part of one chain somewhere in Portuguese forum - it is not graphically bad at glance but its borders are not well made.

Quote
Plastic goods:

Plastics + Chemicals -> Plastic goods plant -> Plastic goods
I think I know which chemicals you think - but it is not quite good idea to serve two materials from one factory to else factory.

I think better chain would be shoes and boots - new cow farm (leather) / rafinery (plastics) / textiles (textile factory) -> shoemaker (-> shop)

Quote
A cute chain that transport tycoon deluxe had was water supply (For desertic cities, although simutrans atm is a wee bit too verdant on most paksets), it was a simple two-stop chain starting at a water supply and ending at a water tower, but it always made me go d'aww like an idiot  ;D
I support such very simple chains - even this.

Offline Zeno

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Re: New industry suggestions?
« Reply #43 on: April 13, 2011, 09:07:50 PM »
I think better chain would be shoes and boots - new cow farm (leather) / rafinery (plastics) / textiles (textile factory) -> shoemaker (-> shop)
Me like! Remembers me of ... capitalism? It was a game about creating an economic empire by building such factory chains... leather+textile=shoes&jackets
Anyway I like this idea; maybe the shoemaker could be derived to something more generic... is there a word for "leather clothes factory"?

Offline Václav

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Re: New industry suggestions?
« Reply #44 on: April 13, 2011, 09:14:25 PM »
Of course - because then it could produce not only shoes and boots but also special clothes (for example work suits - like such which  firefighters have, if you know what I think)

Offline Djohaal

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Re: New industry suggestions?
« Reply #45 on: April 13, 2011, 10:35:24 PM »
Well this could do a whole detailed chain. Cows and sheep (chicken have no leather!) could go to abbatoir where raw leather and meat is produced. Meat goes to food industries and canneries, while raw leather passes by a leatherworks and turns into goods which get sold at city.

We'll need livestock cars though.

Offline sdog

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Re: New industry suggestions?
« Reply #46 on: April 14, 2011, 02:43:00 AM »
Another suggestion, put a chemical plant between refinery and plastic, paint consumers.

The refinery provides ethene or ethine. In principle this would require gas tankers, but for the start oil tankers could suffice. At the simutrans detail level, painting an orange strip on the already available cars would suffice anyway. They can be used for hydrogen or methane chains too.

Offline Zeno

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Re: New industry suggestions?
« Reply #47 on: April 14, 2011, 08:07:20 AM »
We'll need livestock cars though.
Nah, we haven't got slaughteries, so no need to transport livestock. We can assume the meat, leather, milk and whatever else is processed in the same farm, then transport these items (which is how currently works). Just imagine the slaughter house is in the back of the farm or in the hidden basement ;)

Offline Václav

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Re: New industry suggestions?
« Reply #48 on: April 14, 2011, 08:47:19 AM »
ha ... it seems like my idea of shoes and boots chain is getting to be real ...

I don't know situation of rights over current cow farm but new new one would be very good - and then it would produce all called goods - meat, milk and leather.

Cows and sheep (chicken have no leather!)
Cow leather is mostly used. I don't think that we need more than one source of leather - regardless leather can be gained from some other animals too.

Offline ӔO

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Re: New industry suggestions?
« Reply #49 on: April 14, 2011, 08:48:19 AM »
paint is a good idea, I like it.

For shoes/leather textiles, just remember that there can always be a competing synthetic version to add variety.

To extend on the metal series, don't leave out copper if aluminum is to be done, because it is a very important metal we use for electronics, water piping, etc. It's very hard to imagine day to day life without copper.

Recycling plant. although this might have been mentioned in one of the other threads.
I know we have a garbage dump to incinerator chain in pak128, but I don't recall any recycling chains.
The chain would go something like: Junkyard, recycling center -> Sorting plant -> steel, copper, aluminum, glass and plastic recycling plants. Each plant only does one job it is specialized in.

Offline transporter

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Re: New industry suggestions?
« Reply #50 on: April 14, 2011, 10:12:55 AM »
Would that be the end of the chain though? We should be able to send those recycled goods to their respective factories to be reused

Offline ӔO

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Re: New industry suggestions?
« Reply #51 on: April 14, 2011, 10:53:27 AM »
Would that be the end of the chain though? We should be able to send those recycled goods to their respective factories to be reused
yes, definitely.

Offline Combuijs

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Re: New industry suggestions?
« Reply #52 on: April 14, 2011, 11:21:11 AM »
In my modified version of pak64 I use:

cowfarm ---> hides (amongst others)
hides ---> tannery ---> leather
leather ---> shoemaker ---> shoes
shoes ---> shoe shop
shoes ---> non-food supermarket (forgot the exact name)
leather + planks ---> furniture factory ---> furniture
cotton farm ---> cotton
sheep farm ---> wool (amongst others)
leather + cotton + wool ---> clothes factory ----> clothes
clothes ---> clothes shop
clothes ---> non-food supermarket (forget the exact name)


Offline Djohaal

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Re: New industry suggestions?
« Reply #53 on: April 14, 2011, 06:35:44 PM »
Nah, we haven't got slaughteries, so no need to transport livestock. We can assume the meat, leather, milk and whatever else is processed in the same farm, then transport these items (which is how currently works). Just imagine the slaughter house is in the back of the farm or in the hidden basement ;)

My idea is to implement an abbatoir which would produce both meat and leather.

The big issue with pak128 is that currently most goods are delivered as bulk. Adding smaller goods which wouldn't have a copious consumption makes it more complicated. I can't really picture a city consuming train after train full of shoes...

For the recylcing chain:

Junkyard -> sorting plant -> Sorted metal/ sorted plastic/ sorted glass -> Metal recycling plant/ (all metals get produced as byproducts) plastic recyling plant/ sorted glass recycling plant.

Man once I get my university break I'll have a ton of buildings to do... :o

I wonder if someone with photoshop/gimp skills could hop in to help me? I just got to foolproof an improved workflow but once it's done the post-render processing is quite streamlined.

« Last Edit: April 14, 2011, 06:40:19 PM by Djohaal »

Offline Zeno

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Re: New industry suggestions?
« Reply #54 on: April 14, 2011, 06:49:49 PM »
I can help with DAT files and tilecutter if you need it... photoshop/gimp are pretty out of my skills list, but I might try though :P

Offline Djohaal

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Re: New industry suggestions?
« Reply #55 on: April 14, 2011, 07:13:34 PM »
I can help with DAT files and tilecutter if you need it... photoshop/gimp are pretty out of my skills list, but I might try though :P

I can handle tilecutter, DAT files not so much, so at least half the problem is stapled :)

Offline sdog

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Re: New industry suggestions?
« Reply #56 on: September 01, 2011, 11:36:26 PM »
very easy and direct industry suggestion:
Refinery -> gypsum  (CaSO4·2H2O)
gypsum -> builders shop
gypsum -> cement mill

a possible source for gypsum would be coal and oil fired power stations too, but i'm not sure if they can be producers.

transport in cement wagons, possibly renaming those to a generic term for that type of wagon (in german Staubwagen i think, couldn't find the english expression)

Offline grampybear

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Re: New industry suggestions?
« Reply #57 on: September 08, 2011, 12:44:21 PM »
 I would like to see a new chain that actually builds on what we have already have and should need only small changes..   "A Wholesale Auction House"    Presently even with cross connection turned off it still happens and you end up with freight in the wrong places which means creating a new freight line to get freight from where it is to where it needs to be ( current coding doesnot allow it to be taken back to where it came from ). A change in the code would allow it to be picked up by a transportation mode and taken to a Warehouse type structure where it is sold.  This structure would accept all goods and have a large storage capacity.   

Offline Fabio

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Re: New industry suggestions?
« Reply #58 on: September 08, 2011, 02:26:20 PM »
Multiple end-consumers for the same products. Those with less goods accepted have a higher chance, and the other way around.

E.g.
Butcher (meat) high chance
Fishery (fish) high chance
Bakery (flour) high chance
Pastry shop (flour) high chance
Winery (wine) medium chance
Grocery (meat+fish) medium chance
Supermarket (meat+fish+flour+wine+canned food) low chance

Clothes shop (clothes) high chance
Bookstore (books) high chance
Electronics shop (electronics) medium chance
Shopping mall (clothes+electronics+books) low chance

and so on

Offline grampybear

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Re: New industry suggestions?
« Reply #59 on: September 08, 2011, 02:41:23 PM »
 Thank you Fabio and that is exactly what happens, I end up with freight in my pastry shop or book store that belongs elsewhere and because these industries have very little storage they fill up and stop receiving what they really need ( using just in time ). So what is the best way to relocate these items to where they belong?

Offline VS

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Re: New industry suggestions?
« Reply #60 on: September 08, 2011, 06:59:51 PM »
Yes, I liked the idea of low-complecity chains, too. Current versions that branch into tens of producers are really bad, and also rather incompatible with timeline (supermarkets).

Food chains really need some simpler version, and "generic goods" are also somewhat weird.

Offline Václav

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Re: New industry suggestions?
« Reply #61 on: September 08, 2011, 07:22:23 PM »
I think we could borrow some chains from French board - if they would be accessible to publishing of their sources. I have played with them for some time - and they are quite well balanced - because from them is possible to make profit - but not much great.

Offline greenling

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Re: New industry suggestions?
« Reply #62 on: September 08, 2011, 07:26:36 PM »
Yes new Factorys are good but than on openscore basic!
I Have some addons from the Frence but the addons from the Frence not openscore!

Offline grampybear

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Re: New industry suggestions?
« Reply #63 on: September 08, 2011, 07:55:45 PM »
 I guess that begs the question.. What needs to done to accommodate low volume industries without filling them up with cross over material ? I have tried working with a central warehouse where the products first arrive from source in volume and distributed to city stores in small quantities, that only works at the beginning but soon the warehouse is full with one product and stops receiving new freight. 

Offline infernalmachine

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Re: New industry suggestions?
« Reply #64 on: September 08, 2011, 08:05:04 PM »
grampybear,

The simple solution to reducing the complexity of too many "unwanted" goods is to disconnect delivery chains by using two or more stations that are not linked at final destinations like Book Stores or Shopping Malls, etc.

Here's an example from recent versions of pak128.open from the nightly build page.

Let's say you have A, a set of farms (sheep farm/cotton plantation) that supply a nearby Textile Factory, B. B sends it's textiles to C, a shopping mall.  In pak128.open, the cotton, the wool, and the textiles are all of cargo type "piece goods".  You set up a transportation network for this and everything's fine (ie simple).

But then you notice that the Shopping Mall will happily receive even more textiles than you have been able to ship, so you locate another textile factory D, which is supplied by nearby farms E.  So you set up a second network E -> D -> C.  But to save money, you deliver these new textiles to the same station at the Shopping Mall.

You think of this as two separate chains of textiles delivered to the same end destination.  But the game sees this as one complex network of bidirectional connections.  If A -> B -> C, and E-> D -> C, then because the connections are two way, C-> B -> A, and C-> D -> E.  In particular though, the farms at A are connected to the textile factory at D, as are the farms at E connected to the textile factory at B.  So if any of the farms in A happen to have D (as well as B) in their list of consumers in the factory window (when you click on the factory), they will happily start shipping to D as well as B.  The route is A -> B -> C -> D.  Similarly you may have E-> D -> C -> B.  So you may end up with lots of raw materials gathering at the Shopping Mall, C, waiting to be picked up by the vehicles that deliver textiles to the Mall. (Important note: this is only because the raw materials are the same cargo type, piece-goods, as the finished textiles.)

But if instead of sharing the station at the Shopping Mall, the second textile chain uses it's own disconnected station (disconnected from the other station, not the mall!), then there is no transportation connection between the factories at B and D, so the "complexity" doesn't occur.

A central warehouse will help to manage complexity, but it won't reduce it -- in fact it is likely to increase it by revealing more connections between industries which happen to be linked in their supplier/consumer lists and use the warehouse at some point in their transportation chains.

On the other hand, one can always embrace the complexity as a challenge, which is what I've recently come to do after years of cursing it.  It's one of the things that makes SimuTrans a very deep game and replayable for many years.

Anyway, hope this helps.  :)

PS.  When I say that two industries are connected by a transport network, I don't exactly mean that are simply connected by, say, rail and trains.  The other requirement for connection is the particular cargo type be present in every stage along the way, in this example, piece goods.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2011, 08:54:57 PM by infernalmachine »

Offline Fabio

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« Reply #65 on: September 19, 2011, 10:57:58 AM »
The problem with climates is serious, though; not everyone likes to play with all of them. I guess the way out is making graphics that expect blending with (back)ground, and more variety. Tree plantations could get more climates easily with new fields etc...

BTW: I have always used sdog's solution, long but narrow maps.

I would prevent a whole chain from being built if just one factory cannot be placed due to climate issues.

On the other hand, I think that many raw material producers need to be localized in certain climates, as it would be in real life (and this is one of the very few effects of climates on gameplay, otherwise they would just be "visual").
« Last Edit: September 19, 2011, 01:33:32 PM by fabio »

Offline VS

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« Reply #66 on: September 19, 2011, 12:33:09 PM »
Personally I think climates should affect primarily architecture and flora - so yes, mostly eye candy. That's not to say that affecting industries is an entirely bad thing, but there should be minimal damage to playability. Broken chains are definitely exactly that. So, I'd say there should be alternatives, so that there isn't possible a state where a poor map/climate choice leaves player with nothing to transport.

Raw materials... Minerals are everywhere, or rather according to geology, not surface (although this does mean some correlation). Agriculture and forests need enough water, so these would go rather to the temperate climates.

Power generation must be available everywhere, as soon as electricity is available; that means oil and coal in all climates, which does not sound to me too presumptuous. Alternative sources are only for late game and thus largely irrelevant. Iron ore is everywhere too, which means steelworks all over the map are possible. Oil also implies plastics, so most of production is possible.

Farms go to climates with enough rainfall, others can perhaps have some food sources based on animals and intensely irrigated patches of land. And of course fisheries in the ocean.

One quirk of the current climate placement is that the last ones appear mostly on peaks, which are small, insulated, rare and usually heavily sloped. This prevents any "alpine" industries...

Feel free to disagree and explain :)
« Last Edit: September 19, 2011, 12:46:13 PM by VS »

Offline ӔO

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« Reply #67 on: September 19, 2011, 01:06:52 PM »
I've seen it suggested before, but how about a cargo port building that imports various goods?

you don't get to see the ships carrying in goods from outside of your map, but it does solve the goods problem.
It would be odd if this building sprung up inside a lake, however.

Offline Fabio

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« Reply #68 on: September 19, 2011, 01:19:26 PM »
I'm with AEO. Cargo port supplier or even a general "freight importer" supplier (one or more for bulk goods, one for agricoltural products, one or more for the other goods) with a very low chance could be a good fallback.

Offline VS

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« Reply #69 on: September 19, 2011, 01:21:40 PM »
Oops, on a second thought, this really belongs to a discussion on industries.

Starting from Fabio's post, this could be moved to the industry thread? (This post: http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=7944.msg76646#msg76646 )