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Offline railfan727

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Industry Growth
« on: December 11, 2010, 07:53:34 PM »
Does the economy grow with time in pak128 as it does in pak64, where new industry chains are added to the map periodically as the game progresses?  I'm all the way up to 1948 now and nothing new has been built (except for a few new town halls and monuments).

Offline Zeno

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Re: Economy in pak128?
« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2010, 08:18:50 PM »
There is a setting in the simuconf.tab file called "increase_industry_every" that adds a new industry chain every "value" number of new inhabitants in the map. The hint is if there is no population growth, there's no industry growth. Remember that you have to transport passengers and goods in order to make cities increase their population.

Offline railfan727

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Re: Economy in pak128?
« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2010, 08:36:39 PM »
Is that in the simuconf.tab for the overall program, or for the individual pakset?  I looked in the main simuconf.tab, as well as that for pak64 and pak128 and could not find that value anywhere.

Offline Zeno

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Re: Economy in pak128?
« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2010, 08:41:01 PM »
In the Pak128 specific simuconf.tab:

Code: [Select]
##################################industry stuff#################################

# when a city reaches 2^n of this number then a new factory chain is spawned
industry_increase_every = 0

As you see, I was wrong with the numbers: you need 2^value to spawn a new chain.

Offline railfan727

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Re: Economy in pak128?
« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2010, 08:56:06 PM »
This line is not present in the simuconf.tab file in pak128 or pak64.  With pak64 I do get new industries spawned periodically, but so far with pak128 I haven't.  Why does my simuconf.tab lack this value?

And this is an exponent, correct?  Since 2^0 = 1, then if this value is set to 0, a new industry chain will be spawned when the population reaches 1?

However, I did find something similar in cityrules.tab.
# at which number of inhabitants we need a new market?
industry_increase_every = 5000

But this one isn't in exponential format like the one that you showed.  Is this the value that I should be looking for?

According to the "list of all cities", the total population on my map is currently 79,167.  However, I have not seen one new industry be spawned since the game started.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2010, 09:06:24 PM by railfan727 »

Offline Zeno

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Re: Economy in pak128?
« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2010, 09:06:46 PM »
Why does my simuconf.tab lack this value?
Probably you aren't playing the same version than me. As you didn't refer to any particular version, I just looked at mine :)
FYI, I'm using one of the latest nightlies, 102.3-3987, which will be probably one or two weeks old.

Offline VS

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Re: Economy in pak128?
« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2010, 10:00:36 PM »
industry_increase_every is what you want to change. But be warned - that value is there for a reason ;)

Why is it in that file, I have no idea. There might have been some changes.

Offline railfan727

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Re: Economy in pak128?
« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2010, 05:54:40 PM »
The global population is now over 84,000 and no new industries have been founded.  Does the code that I showed you refer to the overall population, or just to a specific city?

I believe my version is from March or April 2010.  If I were to download a new build, would I still be able to use my saved games?  Where do you find the nightly builds?  All I can find on this site are the stable releases.

Offline Zeno

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Re: Economy in pak128?
« Reply #8 on: December 12, 2010, 06:03:06 PM »
I guess the exponential value is not working any more, since I have a default value of 2000 and I get regular industry spawnings. Btw, I think this is referred to each individual city, not to the global map, but I can't say I'm sure about that.

The nightly builds can be found here. Be careful, and use them at your own risk as long as these compilations are NOT stable and are NOT bug-free. They only contain the executable file for the game, so you need a full version of simutrans (102.3) to run them. I strongly recommend you to use a clean install of stable version 102.3 first. If it doesn't work for you with that version, then you might choose to test a nightly version.

Offline prissi

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Re: Economy in pak128?
« Reply #9 on: December 12, 2010, 10:17:33 PM »
The growth happens at n*2^i (i=0,1,2, ... ); if the setting is 2000, an new industry will be founded (or an existing factory with a missing chain will be completed) at 2000, 4000, 8000, 16000, 32000, ...

So the text is a little misleading. I invite better (short) texts.

Offline Spike

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Re: Economy in pak128?
« Reply #10 on: December 13, 2010, 01:59:23 PM »
I think thee should be "times", not 2^n directly.

Code: [Select]
# when a city reaches a population of 2^n times this number
# then a new factory chain is spawned (n=0,1,2 ...)

industry_increase_every = 2000

Offline VS

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Re: Economy in pak128?
« Reply #11 on: December 13, 2010, 03:42:54 PM »
Ahhhh, I finally understand! Since cities will often grow like mad... countering exponential growth like this is a very good idea :) Thanks!

Offline railfan727

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Re: Economy in pak128?
« Reply #12 on: December 13, 2010, 09:59:53 PM »
My cities are continuing to grow, yet I am not seeing any new industries.  I'm using an older version which has the industry growth parameter in the cityrules.tab rather than simuconf.tab.  This is the same version of the executable that I've used with pak64 and had lots of industry growth.

In pak64, the cityrules.tab is set to spawn a new industry every 2000.  In pak128, this value is 5000, so I naturally do not expect the economy to grow as quickly as in pak64.  However, I am seeing no industry growth whatsoever.  I have a couple of cities which are over 5000 now, and there are no other industries besides the ones that were placed there when the map was originally generated at the beginning of the simulation.

Is there something else that I'm missing?

Offline Zeno

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Re: Economy in pak128?
« Reply #13 on: December 13, 2010, 10:04:48 PM »
The "reach" concept is important. If your two cities over 5000 were already 5000 at the start of the game, then they never reached that value because they already were over it. If this is your case, you will have to wait until they reach 10000, or any other city in your map reches 5000 inhabitants. I can't imagine any other situation at the moment with the given clues...

Offline railfan727

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Re: Economy in pak128?
« Reply #14 on: December 13, 2010, 10:20:11 PM »
Starting out, the three most poulous cities each had a population of over 3000.

At some point, one of them suddenly jumped to over 18,000 and constructed a Safeco Field monument.  There are two other cities which are now over 5000.

So does the simulation take the starting population and add 5000 to that to determine the thresholds for new industries?
« Last Edit: December 13, 2010, 10:27:47 PM by railfan727 »

Offline prissi

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Re: Economy in pak128?
« Reply #15 on: December 13, 2010, 10:41:09 PM »
Monoments and city halls are not added to this counter. It might as well be still 3020, depending on the level of the monument.

Offline railfan727

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Re: Economy in pak128?
« Reply #16 on: December 16, 2010, 12:20:32 AM »
So will I ever see new industries develop?  The game year is up to 1957 now, and absolutely nothing in the way of new development.........

Offline Colin

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Industry Growth
« Reply #17 on: December 17, 2010, 01:13:25 AM »
Hi Guy's,

 Something seems to have changed in the way that Industries grow. As most of you will know by now I like to build up my cities using the 'Special Tools'. When I start a game I set my median city population to 2000, and I change the setting in Cityrules.tab to allow market growth only after a population  of 20000 is reached.  This has allowed me to build several of my cities to around 18500, (maximum Townhall size) before the first city reaches 20000 and an Industry is born. However, it now appears that the game is not recognising this setting and Industries are starting after 3 or 4k, and I'm having to destroy hundreds of Industries.

Has this setting been changed insomuch that it doesn't represent individual cities, but the whole map? That would mean that my 75 cities would have a total world population of app 150 thousand give or take a few.

The above was using PAK128 latest PAK from 13Th December and nightly 4059. It's not this nightly because it's happened also with 4050 etc.

Offline Dwachs

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Re: Industry Growth
« Reply #18 on: December 17, 2010, 09:20:51 AM »
the parameter industry_increase_every has to be placed in simuconf.tab now. It changes a while back. I do not know, why.

Offline Zeno

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Re: Industry Growth
« Reply #19 on: December 17, 2010, 03:21:45 PM »
I think that it doesn't matter the value you use in simuconf.tab or any other tab file. I have zero value in my simuconf.tab, and the value is ok when I start my game, but at anytime I reload my game I get a new value of 2000, despite that value is not in any tab file in or out of the pak folder :(
I hope this is fixed with new version, when IIRC I was told the value will be stored in savegame. Am I right?

Btw, and for your interest Colin, I use the settings dialog (27) in order to set this value to zero, and thus not having to remove zillions of factories from time to time. However, you will need the ability to modify the menuconf.tab file, and let the dialog number 27 assigned to an existing icon in the toolbar that you desire.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2010, 03:33:17 PM by Zeno »

Offline Dwachs

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Re: Industry Growth
« Reply #20 on: December 17, 2010, 09:03:08 PM »
Zeno, if you set savegame version to 102.3 or greater in the settings dialog, these magic number will be saved, too.

Offline Colin

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Re: Industry Growth
« Reply #21 on: December 17, 2010, 10:31:42 PM »
the parameter industry_increase_every has to be placed in simuconf.tab now. It changes a while back. I do not know, why.

Only in the first Simuconfig.tab not the one in the PAK Config folder. The possibility to change the market settings doesn't exist there, unless it's changed recently. I already changed the setting in the first Simuconfig.tab but it didn't change anything. so I # it out. My appologies I think  it has now been included.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
@Zeno. sorry mate I have no idea what you're talking about when you refer to changing the setting dialogue to 27 even less when you talk about assigning it to an existing icon. Programmer I have never been. Heres hoping it gets changed in the next version. Edit: I think 27 is used for a lot of things in the Menuconf.tab.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2010, 11:07:16 PM by Colin »

Offline VS

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Re: Industry Growth
« Reply #22 on: December 18, 2010, 11:12:30 PM »
the parameter industry_increase_every has to be placed in simuconf.tab now. It changes a while back. I do not know, why.

Fixing - except the fix is more like the Russian Reversal :D All that can be done is removing the value from cityrules, it's been already present in simuconf for ages.

I'm really sorry, sometimes "we" forget to delete stuff and it keeps haunting config files.

As for why it has been moved: I can imagine that higher level options are being moved to simuconf since it can be customized easily. Paksets don't overwrite it for each other, so it even makes sense to say all settings could end there.

Also, merging threads.

Offline railfan727

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Re: Industry Growth
« Reply #23 on: December 18, 2010, 11:57:37 PM »
I just got my first new industry added last night... a solar power plant chain with 1 factory (I'm using "all eras").  29 million credits in the bank, and every city on the map receiving passenger and mail service.

Offline Zeno

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Re: Industry Growth
« Reply #24 on: December 19, 2010, 12:21:59 AM »
Zeno, if you set savegame version to 102.3 or greater in the settings dialog, these magic number will be saved, too.
Thanks for the tip, Dwachs. Any known secondary effects? ;)

Colin: I'm sorry I somehow guessed you'd have heard about what I was talking about. That meant a manual change of the menu config file to show a new "settings" dialog, which require some skills (not really programming). If you are not feeling like fighting with that, I guess that the settings dialog (27) will be implemented in next version. When that happens, we'll take a look and see if we can take advantage of these changes in Pak128 too.

Offline Colin

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Re: Industry Growth
« Reply #25 on: December 19, 2010, 12:41:11 AM »
Thank's Zeno. I knew where to look for (27) but not how to change or add as you suggested.

 I don't quite understand why we have to wait for a new version, it worked fine in previous versions so something was changed, why can it not be changed back over night?

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Re: Industry Growth
« Reply #26 on: December 19, 2010, 10:18:41 AM »
IIRC this was not implemented in version 102; correct me if I'm wrong, please. That's the reference version for Pak128 nightlies, so I think this may not be added until that reference upgrades to 103, once the version is released. Btw, if you use both nightly versions for ST and Pak128, I can send you a config file with this option changed, of course.

Offline prissi

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Re: Industry Growth
« Reply #27 on: December 19, 2010, 08:03:50 PM »
Previous version saved this under cityrules.tab. It could be also modified for running games and worked the same since a very long time.

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Re: Industry Growth
« Reply #28 on: December 19, 2010, 11:02:34 PM »
Hm, I test nightly against nightly...

Offline Colin

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Re: Industry Growth
« Reply #29 on: December 19, 2010, 11:15:39 PM »
Previous version saved this under cityrules.tab. It could be also modified for running games and worked the same since a very long time.

No! Sorry Prissi, it doesn't work no matter where it was or, where it is, and lets face it, it's now in Simuconf.tab in the first Config folder, it's in the second Simuconf.tab in the Config folder under PAK Files, and it's also in the Cityrules.tab in the same folder. You can change it, Hash it out, delete it, Nothing you do stops the game from building, as Zeno said, zillions of factories. I have a 1024x1024 map with 75 cities, every time I grow a city factories appear all over the map. I have changed the settings to 20000, 25000, and 0, I've even hashed them out in every place this setting is available. Nothing works. VERY FRUSTRATING!!

Another question, Why is this setting in SO MANY places? Why do we have two Simuconf.tabs, and why do we have this setting at all? I don't want the game to auto build my factories. OK, OK, I realise that some gamers will want this but I prefer to build my own for two reasons, 1. I can put them where I want, and 2. The game settings for factory spacing doesn't work. I set my spacing to 50 or 75 and it still builds factories next to one another. Mind you this applies to city spacing too.

Offline prissi

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Re: Industry Growth
« Reply #30 on: December 20, 2010, 08:40:10 AM »
The nightlies since 102.2.2 will save it with the game. To edit this, you have to invoke the settign dialogue of the game. Otherwise any change only affects new games.

Currently industry_growth_every is only read from the various simuconf.tab. Before (where you could still change it during a game) it was in cityrules.tab. Thus if you are using an older pak, it will be there, but will be ignored.

Did you checked, that none of your simuconf.tab specify a value not zero? For instance, the value of your personal will take final preference. And the default value is 2000, thus if nothing is found, this will be used. To disable industry growth, you must use specify zero in the simuconf.tab.

Offline Colin

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Re: Industry Growth
« Reply #31 on: December 20, 2010, 08:56:10 AM »
Did you checked, that none of your simuconf.tab specify a value not zero? For instance, the value of your personal will take final preference. And the default value is 2000, thus if nothing is found, this will be used. To disable industry growth, you must use specify zero in the simuconf.tab.

Did you not read this?

 I have changed the settings to 20000, 25000, and 0, I've even hashed them out in every place this setting is available. Nothing works. VERY FRUSTRATING!!


Offline prissi

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Re: Industry Growth
« Reply #32 on: December 20, 2010, 09:56:28 AM »
It works for new games. For already started games it is saved with the map with nightlies since 102.2.2. You have now to invoke the setting dialoge to change it on a running map.

Offline Colin

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Re: Industry Growth
« Reply #33 on: December 20, 2010, 10:42:17 AM »
It works for new games. For already started games it is saved with the map with nightlies since 102.2.2. You have now to invoke the setting dialogue to change it on a running map.

Thank you Prissi for your prompt reply, can you now please explain, in words of not more than two syllables, how to change the setting dialogue. You have to understand that my brain is losing it's ability to work things out for itself.

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Re: Industry Growth
« Reply #34 on: December 20, 2010, 02:36:28 PM »
That must be done by modifying the menuconf.tab file inside your pak128/config folder. Post  your file here and I will modify it for you, then you will be able to look for that change if you wish, or simply  play with it.