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Author Topic: Changes to texts in depot window (all languages) (base texts)  (Read 10246 times)

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Offline whoami

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Changes to texts in depot window (all languages) (base texts)
« on: January 10, 2011, 06:06:11 AM »
In the following, I refer to the English translations of some texts in the depot. But most other languages likely depend on the meaning of the English text.

"<no line exists>" ought to be replaced by "<no line selected>" (or chosen etc.) in both occurrences.

"Max. speed:" of the convoy: this could be replaced by "maximum sustained speed when full" (on flat, straight ways and in dependency of loaded contents, to be exact, but that does not fit in the available space), if I have unterstood it properly - see http://archive.forum.simutrans.com/topic/06146.0/index.html. In German, I replaced "Tempolimit:" by "Höchstgeschwindigkeit:" today, because the old one was even more misleading.

"Show all" shall be replaced by something like "show non-matching", "show non-combinable", "show incompatibles", whatever.
I think "Show obsolete too" can be shortened to "Show obsolete".
And in both cases, "show" might better be replaced by "include".

"Top speed:" (in LOCO_INFO and WAGGON_INFO) is actually the speed limit, so that would be a better translation.

« Last Edit: January 28, 2011, 12:46:03 PM by whoami »

Offline An_dz

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The string "<no line exists>" is not translated that way on Simutranslator. It's only "no line"

I removed the 'too' on "Show Obsolete"

The "Show All" is a great suggestion, but I'll keep it to the Official English (Native speakers) translators.

"Top Speed" and "Max. Speed" I see no need to change. It's the Highest (Top) Speed it can achieve and it's the Maximum Speed it can run.

Do you have the latest translations .tab files? Download them on Simutranslator

Offline Lmallet

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In French, the equivalent of "no line" is currently being used.

I agree with An_dz about Top Speed and Max. Speed.  To add, I don't actually understand the need to differentiate them.  It is the Max. Speed of the vehicle, and the Max. Speed of the convoy.  This is currently used in French.

For Show All, I actually like it as is, mostly because it is short.  If anything, reverse the behaviour of the button, and call it "Show possible only".


Offline whoami

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The string "<no line exists>" is not translated that way on Simutranslator. It's only "no line"
The other way round: "<no line>" is the internal text.

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I removed the 'too' on "Show Obsolete"
OK, but let's discuss before making changes - that's why I started this thread.

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"Top Speed" and "Max. Speed" I see no need to change. It's the Highest (Top) Speed it can achieve and it's the Maximum Speed it can run.
It's not as simple as that (nowadays). Some time ago, the maximum allowable speed (restrained by safety considerations) was shown for the convoy, which is the minimum of all the speed limits of the single vehicles in it.
Today, the value shown is the speed that the convoy can reach and maintain on its own power when it is fully loaded (the value in parentheses can be different, as it is for the lightest goods type, if there are several ones). This matters mostly for trains. When running down slopes, a train can become faster than this sustainable speed, but it will slow down again on flat terrain.
The "sustainable" value is also constrained by the safety speed limit, of course. BTW, there is a bug (at least, I'd call it a bug) in current ST that allows trains to go faster than their safety limit (e.g. engine: Pak64 BR01 with 130 km/h, track: 120 km/h - but the train will accelerate downhill to 140 km/h).

And another change: I would label the "update line" button by "modify line".

Offline prissi

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It's not as simple as that (nowadays). Some time ago, the maximum allowable speed (restrained by safety considerations) was shown for the convoy, which is the minimum of all the speed limits of the single vehicles in it.
It is still this way. This code did not change much since 84.22.1 (was my first working on).

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Today, the value shown is the speed that the convoy can reach and maintain on its own power when it is fully loaded (the value in parentheses can be different, as it is for the lightest goods type, if there are several ones). This matters mostly for trains. When running down slopes, a train can become faster than this sustainable speed, but it will slow down again on flat terrain.
The value in parentheses is the maximum speed fully loaded too with lightest and heaviest goods of this catergory. (The stuff with a very little faster downhill was added for the record display. Exceeding max speed by more than 10% is nearly impossible this way.) SO this should not be considered for the display in depot.

To conclude: there is a difference in top speed and max speed. Using the same string (like in french?) is not very clever.

Offline whoami

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It is still this way.
Sorry? I referred to the depot view, not to the convoy window (which has always shown the speed limit). I am quite sure that the sustainable speed is shown, it degrades as wagons are added to the train. It is, like I wrote, also limited by all the contained vehicles' capabilities.

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The value in parentheses is the maximum speed fully loaded too with lightest and heaviest goods of this catergory.
The display could be more self-explaining, e.g.
max. sustainable speed [km/h]: X (empty), Y (lightest), Z (heaviest)

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(The stuff with a very little faster downhill was added for the record display. Exceeding max speed by more than 10% is nearly impossible this way.)
You know, speed limits are very strictly monitored and enforced for trains on modern routes. Record attempts happen in special setups, not in normal network operation. But okay, it's intended and therefore a feature.

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To conclude: there is a difference in top speed and max speed. Using the same string (like in french?) is not very clever.
I think the players would like something more than different technical terms, that is, labels that are as descriptive as available space allows.

Offline prissi

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I think the players would like something more than different technical terms, that is, labels that are as descriptive as available space allows.

But "sustainable max speed" is still not very clear. Then rather "maximum speed fully loaded" or so, since the empty max speed is not displayed here.

[offtopic]
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You know, speed limits are very strictly monitored and enforced for trains on modern routes. Record attempts happen in special setups, not in normal network operation. But okay, it's intended and therefore a feature.

Actually they are strictly enforced only on few routes with ATC. So 99% of the worldwide trains and all other means of trainsport are not affected by this. Also not affected for times before 1970 when first ATCs are introduced.

Most driver can overide maximum speed of the track (and also regularily do so; only few cases are so extreme like the accident in Japan when a train was going with 115 km/h through a curve rated for 70km/h). The reason is that trains are allowed to exceed their maximum speed by 10% to compensate for lateness. THus a train written by UIC for 230 km/h is allowed to go 253 km/h in case of needed.

But most important: This is a game, not reality.
[/offtopic]

Offline whoami

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But "sustainable max speed" is still not very clear. Then rather "maximum speed fully loaded" or so, since the empty max speed is not displayed here.
"Maximum speed" is a bit ambiguous - the speed limitation is not there for safety reasons (due to wagon weight or axle load), or whatever one might guess.
Would you like any of these?
max. sustainable speed [km/h]: %d (empty), %d (full/lightest), %d (full/heaviest)
max. sustainable speed [km/h]: %d (empty), %d (full/lightest content), %d (full/heaviest content)
max. sustainable speed [km/h]: %d (empty); full load: %d (lightest content), %d (heaviest content);
(or their counterparts without the entry for 'empty')

I know, these strings are already very long, and other languages might need even longer words or expressions. "max. speed [km/h] when full: %d (lightest), %d (heaviest)" would still be an improvement over the current one.

Offline prissi

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As there is no empty max speed (and won't be because pointless) I wonder why you want to use "sustainable". The conotations of this word is very much green nowadays. And why not max speed?

Offline whoami

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In most cases, cargo trains have to run empty half of their mileage, and "empty" speed shows how fast they can move in those cases, but it's surely not as useful as the others. And for the actual word, if you don't like my choice, "maintainable", "supportable", "upholdable" are some alternatives.

Sorry for using so much time and space for this detail. I shouldn't try to be a perfectionist. ;)

Offline An_dz

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OK, but let's discuss before making changes - that's why I started this thread.
That's why I kept other lines as they are, the too was quite irrelevant, so I changed it.

And another change: I would label the "update line" button by "modify line".
That's how it's translated in Portuguese. I agree it looks better.

Offline whoami

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Lacking approval or consensus, I am not going to make changes. Or should I count missing objections as acceptance? ;)

Offline prissi

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Thank you for bringing this up again.

Most problematic: Lack of native speaker commenting ... Thus please keep them as htey are. At lest the (few) documentation around will be correct.

Offline whoami

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(Maybe many native speakers don't visit this board, expecting that everything is translated from the fixed English original text.)
Even without changes to the actual translation, defining the exact meaning of a certain display item can be helpful, e.g. for use in bubble balloon help or for inclusion in a manual/guide. EDIT: And the translators of others languages can and should try to match the actual meaning, instead of simply putting the English text into foreign words.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2011, 03:46:38 AM by whoami »

Offline VS

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I can't really comment - I don't care about translations as much as I would like to :(

Offline Ashley

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Re: Changes to texts in depot window (all languages) (base texts)
« Reply #15 on: January 28, 2011, 01:28:20 PM »
I'd just keep it as something like "max. convoy speed" and then have a tooltip that explains exactly what this means and the calculation involved. For practical gameplay purposes this display is I think mostly used by people to check whether the length of train they have put together is going to adversely affect its performance (that's why the figure is there, correct?). Maybe make it "actual speed when loaded" or "convoy speed when loaded", if you want something more verbose/accurate. Maybe replace convoy by consist (this is more of a US term though), ofc in the UK we'd refer to multiples/singulars differently depending on the mode of transport but I guess there's no way to translate differently for each case, so stick with convoy, since most people can work out that that means I think.

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"<no line exists>" ought to be replaced by "<no line selected>" (or chosen etc.) in both occurrences.

Agree 100%, "no line selected" would make a lot more sense. I'd suggest translating the first one as "Select a Line..." and the second one as "No line selected" respectively though.

I think "show all" is fine though, it shows all vehicles, that's what it does. No ambiguity there. If you reverse the action then the checkbox no longer makes any sense, since the "on" value of the checkbox shows everything and your text would imply that the "on" value of the checkbox hides non-matching vehicles.

Offline jamespetts

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Re: Changes to texts in depot window (all languages) (base texts)
« Reply #16 on: January 28, 2011, 11:26:37 PM »
I agree with replacing "<no line exists>" with "<no line selected>" - that is considerably clearer. "Show all", I think, is clear enough (and "too" is best removed from "Show obsolete"): the tooltip clarifies things. "Max. speed" and "top speed" seem clear enough as they are from the context.

Offline The Hood

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Re: Changes to texts in depot window (all languages) (base texts)
« Reply #17 on: January 30, 2011, 10:19:34 AM »
I agree with jamespetts - except a suggestion that you have "theoretical max speed" and "convoy max speed" perhaps?

Offline jamespetts

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Re: Changes to texts in depot window (all languages) (base texts)
« Reply #18 on: January 30, 2011, 11:35:36 AM »
Or perhaps "Max. speed permitted" and "Max. speed attainable"?

Offline TurfIt

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Re: Changes to texts in depot window (all languages) (base texts)
« Reply #19 on: January 30, 2011, 06:40:47 PM »
Maybe it's cultural, but to me, IRL:
Max speed means "Max. speed permitted" - lawful/safety limited speed.
Top speed means "Max. speed attainable" - power limited speed.
The opposite of the current display.

As for "Show all", it's fine except it doesn't really mean 'all' unless 'Show obsolete too' is also pressed. Hence the presence of the 'too' modifier. Removing 'too' would then require 'Show all except obsolete'.  :D

Offline Isaac Eiland-Hall

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Re: Changes to texts in depot window (all languages) (base texts)
« Reply #20 on: January 31, 2011, 06:40:54 AM »
"Max speed" and "Top speed" mean the exact same thing to me in the US.

"Show all" is definitely wrong since you have to "show obsolete" to show **all**. I'm not sure how to phrase this shortly, though. "Too" is not the problem, although it should be removed... "all" is the problem, because that's not what it does.

Offline sdog

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Re: Changes to texts in depot window (all languages) (base texts)
« Reply #21 on: January 31, 2011, 07:07:14 AM »
the button should not be missnamed, but the name does not have to explain the full function. My suggestion:
"show more" instead of "show all"
A player will click it to see what the more that will be shown could be, and finds out what it means that way.

Offline prissi

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Re: Changes to texts in depot window (all languages) (base texts)
« Reply #22 on: January 31, 2011, 09:08:20 AM »
show all is used in another two or three places ... but of course on can change this, when a conclusion is reached.

Offline Isaac Eiland-Hall

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Re: Changes to texts in depot window (all languages) (base texts)
« Reply #23 on: January 31, 2011, 09:37:09 AM »
"Show more" is a brilliant solution. I support this strongly. :)

Offline whoami

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Re: Changes to texts in depot window (all languages) (base texts)
« Reply #24 on: February 01, 2011, 07:01:07 PM »
Thanks to the native speakers who have responded to my invitation, and to all the other participants.

"Max speed" and "Top speed" mean the exact same thing to me in the US.
Exactly my point. Another suggestion: "Speed limit" in all places where it is appropriate, and "achievable" speed for the power-limited value.

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"all" is the problem, because that's not what it does.
And that little thing has bothered me for years. :)

"show more" instead of "show all"
Quite fuzzy, but still an improvement.

Offline TurfIt

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Re: Changes to texts in depot window (all languages) (base texts)
« Reply #25 on: February 19, 2011, 08:38:44 PM »
I think in all the discussion about the finer points of max speed and top speed and.... the following structural formatting suggestions were passed over:
The value in parentheses is the maximum speed fully loaded too with lightest and heaviest goods of this catergory.
The display could be more self-explaining, e.g.
max. sustainable speed [km/h]: X (empty), Y (lightest), Z (heaviest)
Would you like any of these?
max. sustainable speed [km/h]: %d (empty), %d (full/lightest), %d (full/heaviest)
max. sustainable speed [km/h]: %d (empty), %d (full/lightest content), %d (full/heaviest content)
max. sustainable speed [km/h]: %d (empty); full load: %d (lightest content), %d (heaviest content);
(or their counterparts without the entry for 'empty')

I know, these strings are already very long, and other languages might need even longer words or expressions. "max. speed [km/h] when full: %d (lightest), %d (heaviest)" would still be an improvement over the current one.

The display could definitely be more self explanatory. Without looking at the code, I had no idea what 60(60) km/h or even 48(60) km/h was trying to tell me. How about:
Code: [Select]
Max. speed: 65 km/h
Max. speed: 65 km/h, 60 km/h loaded
Max. speed: 65 km/h, 48-60 km/h loaded
for the three cases? Only show different numbers, and show lightest/heaviest cargo as a range without extra words for brevity.
'empty' could be added after the first speed if needed, but I think it's clear without.
'Max. speed:' remains as is, a translator item; Translator can choose max, top, or whatever.
'loaded' added as a new item, 'empty' too if desired. Does 'km/h' need a pass through the translator?


As there is no empty max speed (and won't be because pointless) I wonder why you want to use "sustainable". The conotations of this word is very much green nowadays. And why not max speed?
In most cases, cargo trains have to run empty half of their mileage, and "empty" speed shows how fast they can move in those cases, but it's surely not as useful as the others.

Empty max speed should should be displayed too. I can easily construct a convoi that can't attain the speed limit with empty cars in tow... And, maybe I'm hauling a load of styrofoam packing peanuts.  ;)