Topic: Great Britain simulation in Simutrans Experimental

[jamespetts]

There's definitely an update due on the GB trains pack -- I'll try to get around to this soon. Thanks for the reminder!

The BR fantasy set is something I'll think about after I've finished the GB map! Are any of the fantasy liveries available in Pak.128-Britain Experimental?

There are very few hypothetical liveries currently available, but it might be helpful to add one or two one day. One hypothetical livery currently available is the Class 210 in Regional Railways livery (although not yet Network South-East livery, which is what I suspect that they would have had if they had been introduced); another one that might be worthwhile is an InterCity livery for the Class 50, as it was historical accident that it ended up on services classed as Network SouthEast after sectorisation.

[KneeOn]

I would be happy to assist with the odd drawing of BR/NSE/RR/IC liveries. Not many exist but a fair number of the current fleet were in either Sectorisation liveries or even both. Cl313 definitely had both, so did 455 and 317. I know 319 had NSE livery. Pretty sure the 466 had NSE. 165 is another definite NSE.

[kierongreen]

One of the NSE liveries the 319 class carried is in the pakset already. I'm not sure the other is necessary (slightly different roof, rounded rather than pointed stripes rising up at the ends...). On the otherhand I'm pretty sure that not all of Battleship Grey Thameslink, Blue and Yellow Thameslink and both First Capital Connect liveries are present. Likewise networker (turbos) are present in NSE livery but probably not all liveries since then.

Classes that might be missing NSE liveries are the Mark1 EMUs as I drew these with Blue-Grey originally.

Regarding hypothetical liveries, most NSE units could only every really carry NSE branding in the late 1980s and early to mid 1990s. In particular third rail units would only be used on NSE services (well, unless you go down route of assuming that Tyneside electrics might have continued, Manchester electrics converted, or stock used on Liverpool suburban services). In which case a few inner suburban units (465, 313?) might have the liveries of the various PTEs/regional railways. About the only class suitable for Intercity livery would be 442.

[KneeOn]

One of the NSE liveries the 319 class carried is in the pakset already. I'm not sure the other is necessary (slightly different roof, rounded rather than pointed stripes rising up at the ends...). On the otherhand I'm pretty sure that not all of Battleship Grey Thameslink, Blue and Yellow Thameslink and both First Capital Connect liveries are present. Likewise networker (turbos) are present in NSE livery but probably not all liveries since then.

Classes that might be missing NSE liveries are the Mark1 EMUs as I drew these with Blue-Grey originally.

Regarding hypothetical liveries, most NSE units could only every really carry NSE branding in the late 1980s and early to mid 1990s. In particular third rail units would only be used on NSE services (well, unless you go down route of assuming that Tyneside electrics might have continued, Manchester electrics converted, or stock used on Liverpool suburban services). In which case a few inner suburban units (465, 313?) might have the liveries of the various PTEs/regional railways. About the only class suitable for Intercity livery would be 442.

I think this might have been misinterpreted. I'm talking about doing the liveries for Carl's 64pak he's using in his map.

I also disagree regarding the 442. The Meridian and Pendos and Voygers would all suit Intercity livery.

Finally I didn't convey my point at all about why I would love to draw the new liveries on the units (even having say, the Capitalstar 387 in Intercity livery). It isn't for realism - far from it. Very few would have actually gotten the intercity design but I like grouping my routes in to different types and think having that flexibility would be very nice to see. It's definitely in the realms of fantasy - livery is something I like in Simutrans (and more so in experimental) and would love to be able to create my own fleet based on how I was feeling. I'd go far as to say with Carl's permission that i'd draw new liveries for all units for all current and future (TSGN specifically) TOCs, so I can create a consistent scheme across my networks and provide people a chance to take a design they like and create their "dream" fleet of trains to run on their route, even if they wouldn't really run like that in reality.

I do appreciate how that wouldn't fit in to pak128.britian or even maybe in to the experimental branch - that's focused on a lot of realistic factors (and executes it really well, I am a huge fan!). Obviously this is dependant on Carl Barker's willingness to allow me to modify the graphic files - painting I can do but creating the "shell" is beyond me and he has done a very fine job.

[Carl]

Feel free to do with the raw files whatever you wish. The most up-to-date published release of the sources is in this topic:
http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=11781.0

I've been promising for a long time to update that. I'll try to find the time this weekend!

[Carl]

Quick update -- I've uploaded a new version of the source files for the trains from this pak, here: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/61716/BritishTrains.rar

[greenling]

Hello Carl
Have you on Sunday Freetime? I what talk with you!

[Carl]

Hi greenling, I'm afraid I won't really be free today -- but feel free to post any questions you have either here or in a private message.

[KneeOn]

Carl you absolute legend! You'd have been well within your rights to say no, that they are your work! I will use the chassis designs and work my way through drawing as many liveries as I possibly can. I can't however pak them up very well in line with experimental .dat files (specifically liveries) so that part might have to wait. Thank you so much!

EDIT: Sorry Carl, I've had a flick through the image files. Am I to assume that the units are the actual ones used by the dat file and the bottom one which is either a blue and white or grey and red unit a reference guide? I have to say you've done an outstanding job seeing them in the raw. I attempted to do the 450 and the 313 a long time ago and couldn't quite capture the detail you have.

[Carl]

No problem! There's nothing to be gained by keeping the files to myself

I've also never really got to grips with the liveries system -- I tend to paint separate liveries as different units.

[KneeOn]

My ultimate goal would to be to create a pak64.britian (I don't know if my drawing abilities would be able to though, especially on buildings!).

I've modified my post because I wasn't expecting such a fast response but i'll ask again in case you don't see the edit - the images contain what appears to be two separate units, the BR unit and then a generic blue/white or grey/red unit. The BR one is obviously the BR one, is the generic unit a reference guide you used? It's been some time since I've painted anything so i'm going to get to grips with the lay out before diving in too fast!

I'll see if I can crack the liveries system once I've done a few.

Also are there any you would like done as a priority for your own enjoyment?

Finally when I do get to the .dat file, i'm thinking that i'll put down in the credit/creater bit "Created by Carl, livery by kneeon" or words to the effect of. Is that okay? You seem pretty laid back about your sources but credit is still due!

[Carl]

Yes, that's right, the generic blue/white parts of the files are just parts of an old template that I never got around to cleaning up. It's probably best to ignore these, or even crop them out if you can be bothered.

As for the dat file, that sounds fine too! I look forward to seeing what you come up with...

[KneeOn]

Funny how an hour or so can yield results already!

Both FCC and NSE versions are done. Compared to say, Mersyrail the NSE graphic isn't exactly hard but it was tricky to draw on the diagonals. Some notes:
FCC 377 has got white trims AROUND the doors compared to on the doors. This is because the doors looked too white but without the small trim (think the orange safety limit around the pantograph in size) the unit felt too bland. Feel free to disagree and i'll look to change it.
The NSE units were complicated. At best, there was three pixles window to floor to fit in four lines (the blue trim around the windows, the white separating part, the red bottom trim and the grey underside). I cut out the white trim because the doors are white as it is. I also am not sure about the shade of blue used.

By happy chance as I tried to find a reference for the 377 I came across this: http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4103/4975023843_9f4c71a5aa_z.jpg

Useful to say the least! Enjoy!

I've just realized I've not finished the trim on one or two of the views of the FCC one!

EDIT2: We've got a fixed FCC377 and an InterCity 222. The 222 is quite hard to modify due to the curves the 222 has on its front. Also, the Intercity colour hides the windows very well. I went with red doors so there IS some definition. If they were in keeping with the standard livery then there would be no definition. I would love just one extra pixel in height - I always forget that on this pak size but i'm happy with the result here.

I've also ditched the front wrapping red stripe, for two reasons. Firstly I think it makes this unit look sleeker and secondly it is victim of pak 64's size. Enjoy!

[Carl]

Looking good!

The Class 222 was one of the much harder trains to make, principally because of the nose, but you've done a good job.

The 377s look good. On the FCC one - you might find that using very slightly different colours at the top and bottom of the purple/pink areas will give it a little more of a curved look and less of a straight vertical feel. See some of my other newer source files for comparison. I would say that the blue in the NSE livery could be a little less bright, too.

Keep up the good work!

[KneeOn]

The FCC one I tried to keep it as close to the actual livery which is different from the 319 in the sense it is not a blurred effect but looking at it today with fresh eyes I can see how i'd do that quite easily! Thanks for pointing that out.

Seeing as how NSE stopped being a "thing" when I was just starting to remember my life, I guessed a bit on that one! I will make that darker, its funny how the Railway Blue and the NSE liveries can be distorted colour wise in the photos I look at - when trying to find the RGB value of Railway Blue I read the article which said it is actually darker than images would have you believe. I then put the rgb value in to paint and it looked nothing like either!  Before watching the football, I started the 377 BR livery and used pak128.britian's br blue as inspiration for how to get that colour to look right but the 128 version is a grittier feel (kind of like the difference in the colours of GTA IV and GTA V).

Hopefully in the next hour or two I will modify this post and the last one with the tweaked 377 units and the new 377, and maybe one or two newer ones.

As a side note, I have to applaud your EMT 222 drawing. It is very detailed!

EDIT: As promised, a fixed NSE and FCC livery and a BR livery for the 377. Looking now at the NSE 377 I see I need to do a bit more work to make it look more curved. Staring at the same few pixels trying to make them blend means they all start to blur!

EDIT2: Bonus - 377 Regional Railways livery. Wasn't expecting it to be so quick to finish off. I think the side views despite having more pixels are hardest on the 377 because of the requirement that it looks really curved at the bottom.

EDIT3: 142 in NSE. However, quick question for you Carl - the 395 - is it a modified 222? It's also very very grainy - how did you draw that? I'm struggling to keep the definition as I try to draw it in IC colours. Edit3.5 I've included the WIP IC 395 (I like acronyms!). I'm not sure what is unit and what is livery at the front and back. I'm not sure how defined it is, nor what the true width of the doors are.

EDIT4: Class 450 in NSE too. On a roll today. I've noticed that some units have more graphics than others - any reason or is that just a hang over from using the template. I've opted for a grey roof but would like a second opinion regarding this!

That will be all for today - please critique.

[123abc]

As a person who has played both GTA IV and GTA V, yes, the colors are WAY different between both of them!

[KneeOn]

It's a new day, and a new liveried train! Staying down south for the time being, the next unit is a fantasy livery - London Overground is constantly expanding its operations and rumour has it, LO will take over First Capital Connects Morgate - Welwyn (Hertford Loop) services, which are run by 313's.

That will come later though.

I've got a 455 in LO livery for now, the lines out of Waterloo to Epsom Downs or around the Kingston Loop or where ever else the 455's run to one day might be a new addition for London Overground! Enjoy. This is definitely the easiest livery to draw. I've adjusted for the lack of dark green trim around the windows by adding extra pixles (in the same pattern and colour) to give it a bit of thickness.

AAAAAAAAnd theres now the 313 in LO livery. Currently fantasy but as said - it might not be for long!

Also, have a 180 in Intercity Livery. Even better. Have a 180 Intercity Livery which is fixed AND in NSE livery. Which i'm pretty darn proud of.

I love this job!

[Taurus]

Sort of OT but still.
What data (power, capacity, etc) are you using and would it be possible to adapt the same values between our (Britain Addon and this)?
Nice trains btw.

[KneeOn]

I think Carl used either data which can be found on sites such as Wikipedia OR they were gently tweaked to fit his timetabling requirements for the main save.

[Carl]

For the most part, that data is either copied from pak128.britain-ex, or from sites such as this:
www.railway-centre.com/traction-recognition.html

Wikipedia is very spotty for this kind of information.

There are only a couple of cases where I've had to tweak stats to make trains able to keep the timetable -- Voyager CrossCountry routes, notably.

[KneeOn]

That is remarkable - by using the speed limits of both traction and track you've managed to replicate the entire NR network. (nearly)

A testament to both your work and the work that the Experimental team have put in to the fork. I don't think I've played standard in a few years apart from to try new features before they get merged in to simutrans exp.

When are we due for another update?

[jamespetts]

That is remarkable - by using the speed limits of both traction and track you've managed to replicate the entire NR network. (nearly)

A testament to both your work and the work that the Experimental team have put in to the fork. I don't think I've played standard in a few years apart from to try new features before they get merged in to simutrans exp.

When are we due for another update?

There is quite a lot of work ahead before I can release another update, and that is being delayed indefinitely due to the ongoing desync problems that will need to be fixed before work can recommence in earnest on new features.It is hard to predict a time, I am afraid, as there are too many unrpredictable aspects involved.

[Carl]

And as for the GB map (I'm not sure which you were asking about) --

Last weekend I spent some time laying the tracks for the Scottish central belt. Hopefully I'll make some more progress this weekend. I hope to make another video or two soon, as well -- Manchester to London and Leeds to London are next in line.

[KneeOn]

I was asking specifically about your map, but hearing James tell us about the next exp release is also good to hear too.

In one of your videos you mentioned a train took an interesting route in or out of a station (I think Nottingham?) any idea why this is the case? It bugs me to see my stations have a weird track layout, especially when you've got fast and slow lines joining at the junction just out side of a station and even more frustrating if it is on a through station!

OT: I've just realized that your avatar is Mr Turnip Head - that is one confusing film.

[kierongreen]

Along with fitting intensive services across Glasgow I'd be interested to see how the timings work out on the highland lines with long single track sections and infrequent services.

[KneeOn]

Along with fitting intensive services across Glasgow I'd be interested to see how the timings work out on the highland lines with long single track sections and infrequent services.

I'd imagine the WTT times for longer dwell times at some signals or stations than is actually used in real life to allow a buffer. It'd be sort of like what happens at Blackfriers on a normal day, where trains arrive up to two minutes before they are due to depart southbound or like what happens to some services at Croydon on a Sunday where specific Bedford-Brighton services are timed to arrive five minutes before departure to allow for any congestion during the Thameslink Programme engineering works. At least, that's my theory. I don't know the WTT for Scotrail.

Carl, a useful source if you need it would be realtimetrains.co.uk - you'd be able to see more specific arrival times according to the WTT compared to a TOCs timetable.

[Carl]

Indeed, I use realtimetrains quite frequently -- it's a very useful resource.

As for the infrequent services on the Highland lines -- these will indeed be interesting. The closest equivalent elsewhere that I've already done is the Heart of Wales line, which receives only about four services per day and has lots of single-line running. I bumped this up to one every three hours for the sake of regularity, but I did have to add one extra passing loop in order to make a regular 3-hourly timetable work. Just one, though, which isn't too bad

[kierongreen]

Well, Oban is just doubling from 3 to 6 services a day (plus one extra which only travels 1/3 the length) which works out around one every 2 hours, ish. Fort William is 4 a day (one of which is the sleeper to Euston via Edinburgh...). Fort William/Mallaig has several services a day, in summer 1 or 2 are steam hauled (the only other timetabled steam on national rail is North York Moors services to Whitby). Thurso/Wick and Kyle is a bit of a nightmare - I think there's 3 or 4 going all the way to each but various numbers that travel some distance up the line.

Oh, and Inverness-Aberdeen has an almost entirely random timetable - spacing varying between 30 minutes and 2 hours with various trains not travelling the full route (you might want to add the improvements currently suggested which would allow an hourly clockface timetable!)...

[Carl]

Yes, I think I'll have to do that with Inverness to Aberdeen -- inexplicable variation in timetables is very difficult to implement in Simutrans!

In one of your videos you mentioned a train took an interesting route in or out of a station (I think Nottingham?) any idea why this is the case? It bugs me to see my stations have a weird track layout, especially when you've got fast and slow lines joining at the junction just out side of a station and even more frustrating if it is on a through station!

In this case it was because I hadn't built the junction properly - there was no through route from Platform 1 (the northern-most platform) to the Westbound Beeston line, so the train had to make a couple of 90 degree turns in order to get there.

[KneeOn]

Yes, I think I'll have to do that with Inverness to Aberdeen -- inexplicable variation in timetables is very difficult to implement in Simutrans!




In this case it was because I hadn't built the junction properly - there was no through route from Platform 1 (the northern-most platform) to the Westbound Beeston line, so the train had to make a couple of 90 degree turns in order to get there.

Hmm. On most of my maps, I have four tracks which comprise one fast up and down and slow up and down leading in to a shared set of platforms using choose signals. The lay out is similar to most fast/slow line configuration in the UK - up, down (fast) up, down (slow) like that (instead of up (F) up (S) down (F) down (S)). Often it leads to a "sink" style junction where these lines have their choose signals next to each other. Now to minimise track space usually two platforms share one line out, splitting at the platform edge (again, typical of most track layouts I can think of in the UK - at least on my route!).

Fairly simple, the junction is 3x3, with the fast and slow lines crossing at the junction in to the shared platform roads. Despite this, they sometimes take really odd patterns. Fast services for example sometimes go to the bottom of the junction, then cut up and go back down to side platforms instead of just crossing over which would be faster. There is no difference in track speeds on these approaches from fast to slow. I solved it on most stations by having split platforms with tracks which don't meet splitting fast and slow services which doesn't impact too much on the amount on convoys I can route through however it does mean if the fast platform aren't very busy but the slow are (the main termini for slow trains tends not to be its waiting point) then I am unable to use the fast platforms as relief without the junction messing up.
           X====|
         X=====|
=X=X======|
    X=======|
=X=X======|
        X=====|
          X====|

That's the basic track layout, where one line is one track. Yet trains will go to the second X from the entry then cut back to the middle points, then down again in to a platform.

Any ideas?

[greenling]

Heelo Kneeon
The Photos from The Vehicles are cool. You have there make a good Job.

[KneeOn]

Heelo Kneeon
The Photos from The Vehicles are cool. You have there make a good Job.

Thank you very much, Greenling

[Carl]

Some concerted effort today has led to the building of Glasgow and Edinburgh, as well as all of the mainline services to England from the central belt. Here's how it looks. (All of the surrounding towns are still to be added.)



The East Coast and CrossCountry services are not perfectly regular across the day in terms of destinations. They are simulated here as follows:

XC:
Glasgow to Penzance, once per two hours
Edinburgh to Plymouth, once per two hours

EC:
Edinburgh to King's cross, two per hour

Since the Glasgow to Penzance journey is 12 hours, there are only one or two of these on the real timetable. But since time runs on a loop in this Simutrans universe, that end-to-end service runs constantly.

I'm aware that there are some hours when Edinburgh doesn't have two services to London (sometimes the second service terminates at Newcastle). And when it does, they are often extended beyond Edinburgh to Aberdeen or Inverness. But the Aberdeen/Inverness services  aren't regular enough for me to put on this map, so I compromised at a half-hourly EDI-KGX route.

The TPE and Virgin services run as timetabled.

[jamespetts]

Intriguing!

[Carl]

It turns out that timetables in Northern Rail-land changed quite a bit in May, partly to make room for the extra Transpennine service from Newcastle to Liverpool via Manchester Victoria. I've been spending some time making the required alterations, which has been a bit of a headache, but it should be done shortly. Once it is, I'll upload an updated savegame.