Show convoy capacity in depot

[Fabio]

As the title says, the convoy total capacity should be shown in depot, in a line like max speed and length.
This is probably trivial to patch, so if someone wants to give it a go

[vilvoh]

Maybe next to tiles required? I support it.

[An_dz]

Good idea fabio. Maybe below Resale value will look better.

And maybe change Resale value position with Max. Speed. This way, the number of vehicles and how much it cost is shown on the left, and its max speed and max capacity is shown on the right.

[Dwachs]

what about mixed trains? capable of carrying passengers, mail, coal, wood, and oil?

[sdog]

Maybe next to tiles required? I support it.

Instead of displaying a number, having a scale/ruler below, with the station tiles being highlighted. Thtat's more work, but more direct feedback for players.

[Zeno]

me supports.

what about mixed trains? capable of carrying passengers, mail, coal, wood, and oil?

As long as this would be useful mostly for single-cargo trains, I'd say to use the total amount for single-cargo trains and omit the string for mixed trains (or put a fixed text like "mixed cargo convoi").

[Václav]

me supports this too

omit the string for mixed trains (or put a fixed text like "mixed cargo convoi").

But from 3 cargo-types. This is needed for passenger trains - because most players use combined trains - for transporting passengers and post together.

[Fabio]

what about mixed trains?

I would say: display capacity of pax, mail and goods (using the same icons as in the station dialog, also to save space).
You still mix the different goods capacity, but it would be a start.
E.g. Pax: 50, Mail: 0, Goods: 80 (mixed cargo)

Similarily, also displaying the total running costs would be useful (basically all the stuff and data later displayed in the convoy dialog).

[An_dz]

Can't be used the same code used on vehicle dialog? It shows all the available goods it can carry.

And maybe limit it to 3 types, I think that everybody here rarely uses more than 3.

[skreyola]

:support:

In particular, grouping resale value with max speed and tile length with total capacity...
...I also support a graphical tile length marker, so I don't have to buy until it exceeds my station length, then sell back the extra car.
...and the capacity should cover pax and mail at least, not considering them mixed cargo if mixed cargo is not calculated...

@An_dz: Good question. Wish I knew the answer.

[TrainMith]

Here's an idea:  allow for a "current max station length", so that while buying/selecting vehicles for a train does not exceed that length.

[Václav]

TrainMith,

most players build stations before building depots and buying vehicles - but: sometimes you can have stations with many platforms of different length. Some ones of them may be shorter than train will be (for example 4 instead 8 ) - and if you built signals in wrong way, train may go to platform of wrong length.

And by the way, you see trains' length - and you may improve length of target station. So I don't see why this extension.

[inkelyad]

And by the way, you see trains' length.

Yes. But it is hard to predict when adding to train will will increase number of platforms for it. It is not one vehicle <=> one platform. I support TrainMith suggestion. Limiter will be useful.

[Vonjo]

I support TrainMith too. Sometimes I have to buy and sell it again because it is too long. Not every carriages have a length of 8.
But instead of limiter, we can simply display the length of each carriages below. Next to max speed, max capacity, intro date, or price.
Out of topic however.

[skreyola]

How about, instead, a limiter that defaults to 4 tiles (or something set in the conf), and can be moved up or down like the wait times in the scheduler? That way, you could set a limit for the length of the train.
Although, I think the best solution is a graphical ruler so you can see ahead of time that you're approaching the length you want. A limiter, while nice, would still require selling back to add the mail car or whatever once you hit it.

[TrainMith]

Sometimes I have to buy and sell it again because it is too long. Not every carriages have a length of 8.
But instead of limiter, we can simply display the length of each carriages below. Next to max speed, max capacity, intro date, or price.

How about, instead, a limiter that defaults to 4 tiles (or something set in the conf), and can be moved up or down like the wait times in the scheduler? That way, you could set a limit for the length of the train.
Although, I think the best solution is a graphical ruler so you can see ahead of time that you're approaching the length you want. A limiter, while nice, would still require selling back to add the mail car or whatever once you hit it.

The loss of funds for selling back the newly bought vehicle is exactly why I suggested a limiter, and the thought I had was to have it be an up/down control (widget) so that it could be adjusted in game at will.  I would suggest a default that would be equivalent to the maximum tile length for the particular transportation type, so that anyone unaware of the feature can still blissfully continue buying vehicles.  

I do like the idea of the graphical ruler and the length being stated, though.

[PS.  If I knew how to code with the GUI, I'd be able to implement this, most likely.]

[skreyola]

Yes, the up/down widget is what I meant. Sorry for not being clear.
I like your idea that the length is automagically the longest convoy size. But I think the widget should start at 0 (and remember where it was last set, or be changeable in the conf file), where 0 means no arbitrary limit.

[TrainMith]

skreyloa,
Your idea of having the length truncation start at 0 has merit, but I personally think it would be easier setting it to the maximum hard-coded (ie, it's a constant within the code and utterly unmodifiable without a recompilation), so that if I want it to have a limit I don't have to go through the smaller sizes first. 

[skreyola]

The reason I think it's better to have the UI start at 0 is that the maximum length for a train convoy, for instance, is much farther from, for example, 5 tiles than 5 tiles is from 0. Isn't it more than 20 tiles? As a player, I wouldn't want to have to click past that many high numbers to get down to my preference (3-6 tiles). I guess typing it in isn't so bad, but I'd prefer to use the spinner buttons, and coming up from 0 would be easier, I think.
That's my opinion, and I won't be upset if you disagree. I hope I have made my position understandable.

[TurfIt]

How about using the vehicle info area at the bottom of the dialog to display the convoi info too? i.e. When the mouse is over a vehicle, display the vehicle info, when not, display the convoi info instead of blank.

Graphical ruler for convoi length is easy to add, rather hard to make behave sensibly though...

[Fabio]

Actually i don't like it too much.
I would like to see the stats of the convoy AND those of the car I can choose to add to it or not.
I would rather add these info under Resale Value

[TrainMith]

skreyola:  Not upset at all, even though your opinion and mine are slightly conflicting.  At least we are discussing it sensibly, and hopefully come to an agreeable solution.  The solution might even be a configuration option, at the worse.

TurfIt:  I am agreeing with fabio.  This new idea about the convoi should stay with the convoi information area above the individual vehicle section.  If the length of the individual vehicle is also to be displayed, let it be just to the right of vehicle weight (or someplace similar). 

I'm not sure the graphical ruler is going to help much:  how well are you (ie. anyone) at picking out individual pixels on your monitor, and hoping that the algorithm to display the size hasn't had a rounding error (either by rounding down or up)?  This is why I was suggesting a coding proposal of a configurable limit which prevents vehicle purchase. 

[skreyola]

TurfIt: Thank you for your work on this. What I was thinking of for the ruler was sort of a grey stripe showing the current default station length (whether it's the longest existing station, or a conf value, or a value chosen in the dialog). The green and yellow seems to me a bit too close to the speed and waiting bars, leading to some cognitive dissonance in using it for length. Perhaps just different colors? A brown would show up nicely against the depot background. Maybe a black for the used length capacity?

TrainMith: I agree. I think a conf option is the best way to go.
Perhaps the color of the cars in the buy window should change color (to orange or amber) when their length would exceed the station limit, the way they turn yellow or red (can't remember at the moment) when they can't be bought, to signal to the player that they've reached the limit of their stations? A limit preventing purchase is good, but what's really needed here is feedback that you're approaching the limit, that your next car will make the train too long, or else how is it better than "Station tiles: 6" at preventing the need to sell back an extra car?

[TurfIt]

I would rather add these info under Resale Value

Space under resale value is occupied by max speed text; Some of the translations are rather lengthy...

TurfIt:  I am agreeing with fabio.  This new idea about the convoi should stay with the convoi information area above the individual vehicle section.

I agree too. Seen the otherwise 'empty' space down there and thought it might work. The convoi info area is full, but I think I can squeeze out a few pixels. Would make the spacing consistent with the other dialogs to boot.

I'm not sure the graphical ruler is going to help much:  how well are you (ie. anyone) at picking out individual pixels on your monitor, and hoping that the algorithm to display the size hasn't had a rounding error (either by rounding down or up)?  This is why I was suggesting a coding proposal of a configurable limit which prevents vehicle purchase. 

Actually the ruler is working better than I thought it would. Might be one of those things that'll have to be tried first.

The green and yellow seems to me a bit too close to the speed and waiting bars, leading to some cognitive dissonance in using it for length. Perhaps just different colors? A brown would show up nicely against the depot background. Maybe a black for the used length capacity?

Colours are configurable...

TrainMith: I agree. I think a conf option is the best way to go.

I'm not fond of the limit approach. If the ruler doesn't pass muster maybe, but I'm not seeing a simple implementation.

The loss of funds for selling back the newly bought vehicle is exactly why I suggested a limiter,

What loss?

[Fabio]

I like the last screenshot! Thank you for your work!

I'm not sure about the length bar. I would rather add a warning in the individual cal section (bottom). It can be blank or "adding this vehicle will require one additional tile for the stations" or a better wording.

[arnoud]

very very nice

[TrainMith]

I think there is a nuance here that is being misunderstood. 

A limit preventing purchase is good, but what's really needed here is feedback that you're approaching the limit, that your next car will make the train too long, or else how is it better than "Station tiles: 6" at preventing the need to sell back an extra car?

What good is the feedback of a graphical ruler when you are close to the limit, know that you are close to the limit, and purchase a vehicle that looked like it should have fit, but doesn't?  There are two methods by which this situation can occur:  firstly, seeing the graphically shown length and mistakenly assuming that it would fit, and secondly, the graphical representation of the length being miscalculated to be slightly smaller than what it should be (ie, rounding error). 
In either case, the vehicle is purchased.  I would prefer that the purchase hadn't happened.  Similarly, if combining a consist of owned vehicles, I wouldn't want to release it from the depot with a too long length, only to have to send it back to be shortened.

What loss?

I thought that, immediately after purchasing a vehicle, its monetary value depreciates?  I'll check again later tonight, looking at the "resale value" and the purchase price.

[prissi]

This text layout will fail with many languages using longer words (like german, finnish, hunagrian, etc.) Also the depot frame is already very large in its current state and prevents simutrans from working properly on some smartphones.

Maybe just add one a button that opens the convoi detail dialogue of that convoi; that way one could even reuse the existing GUI ...

[sdog]

@Trainmith
setting a max convoi length can be useful, but it is also a bit dangerous for beginners, firstly it clutters the gui a bit more, and it sets a limit people might overlook and consider hard at first. There might be cases you bought a vehicle too much, but there are easy ways to fix it. The ruler is a good compromise that can be quite self explanatory.

I however would suggest some minor changes to make it more obvious. It would already work if it was only a non interactive bar with ticks at the length of station tiles. Alternatively having gray sections of the length of a station tile that get partially or fully highlighted when they are filled up by a convoy. The second coloured bar would be superfluous if this was done.

I've attached an edited version of TurfIt's screenshot to show what i meant. For demonstration purpose it contains both types of rulers i suggest, while only one would be required.

I thought that, immediately after purchasing a vehicle, its monetary value depreciates?  I'll check again later tonight, looking at the "resale value" and the purchase price.

AFAIK not as long as it hasn't left the depot. Just look at the screenshot and compare cost and resale value.

there's quite a lot of text in a small window, wouldn't it be sensible to change the layout of the whole dialogue, to have more room for text, preferably as a table, with more descriptive names.

[TrainMith]

@Trainmith
setting a max convoi length can be useful, but it is also a bit dangerous for beginners, firstly it clutters the gui a bit more, and it sets a limit people might overlook and consider hard at first. There might be cases you bought a vehicle too much, but there are easy ways to fix it. The ruler is a good compromise that can be quite self explanatory.

Maybe just add one a button that opens the convoi detail dialogue of that convoi; that way one could even reuse the existing GUI ...

Actually my idea of the implementation would already have solved most of this:  Using an up/down spin count widget (possibly with a very small 2 digit numerical text entry) and, as I stated earlier, have it set to the maximum that is already hard-coded into the source file.  Hence, it couldn't possibly become larger except by a recompilation of the source, and unless you lower its value in-game then you wouldn't even know it was there.  As to a beginner noticing it, isn't that what the tooltips are for?  

I've attached an edited version of TurfIt's screenshot to show what i meant. For demonstration purpose it contains both types of rulers i suggest, while only one would be required.
AFAIK not as long as it hasn't left the depot. Just look at the screenshot and compare cost and resale value.

Is this pakset dependent?  I'm normally playing pak128.  I haven't made it home yet to check.

sdog:
I do like the look of the ruler under the coloured bar.
TurfIt:
I don't think that moving the vehicle information from the bottom is good.  The top portion seems be more for consist information and the bottom for vehicle, which especially makes sense with the icons for already-bought and available-for-purchase vehicles at the bottom.

I'll see what I can do about coding a patch for this, if I can ever get the gui widgets and such figured out.  Any quick suggestions of files and functions to look for would be appreciated.

[sdog]

i would move the assigned line over the train, just below the drop box to select the line. The assign line button could be next to it.

Colour could also be used to highlight information, perhaps using 70% grey for the description of an entry (e.g. "Vehicle:", "Cost:" etc)

having most information in a neat table in another window, only the most important information in the buy box, prefering numbers and icons to text.


Another idea:
First have the select line drop box and an assign line button next to it.
As soon as a line is selected and assigned, the box dissapears and is replaced by the selected line in a non changeable box. The "assign line" button is replaced by a "change line". Pressing this button again, will get back to the initial state. This has two advantages, it is very clear when a line is assigned (i've seen at one new player that he selected the line, did  not assign but assumed it was correct since he saw the line at the top.) and it takes less room.

It would be even possible to go one step further and seperate changing the consist and the line. Having the select line drop box at the bottom, and a button "finish consist and asign line" next to it. Creating a new line is done by the default selection in the combo box, "create new line"
Pressing it would bring one to a window with the schedule dialogue open, that can be switched for the line or the convoy. The list of vehicles dissapears. Top Speed and Capacity are the only information shown of a convoy.

The window also has a "copy convoy" button and a "start" button. (perhaps also "copy <n> and start" button, where n can be set with control click?)

[prissi]

The convoi selection could be replaced by two arrows right and left, that is true.

But the line combobox needs to stay, if you want to modify the line without opening the line window again. Same for schedule, since there is no need (at least with current system) to force line creation for single convois. Still one could use the currently selected line automatically for the convoi.


line-combox

<start> <change schedule> <copy> <sell>

Sell/dissamble can be in principle achieved in other was. Although I use <sell> very frequently and never disassemble. But maybe clicking on the convoi does sell when the below button is on sell?

But with your suggestion two rows of button can be saved, which is a goo thing. But why not using the convoi detail window for all the informations you want to show here instead of cluttering the dialoge again?

[sdog]

My reasoning was that convoy creation is already a two step process, both steps are also not directly related. This could be reflected in the structure of the window.

Lines that could go from the convoy consist window are "Assigned line", all buttons except "Sell" and "Assign line" (dissasemble is only sometimes useful in experimental, and can be achieved by clicking on every vehicle. It should go!) So it's just one line, but six buttons, simplifying the dialogue.

The real benefit comes in the second step of the process, the line window, in the space saved from the list of vehicles the list of stops in the line can be shown, the first stop it should call could be selected and other necessary line operations included. The "start" button also should only appear here, you can not start a convoy without assigning a schedule anyway. A "back button" something like change consist and line is good enough if one still desires changes in the consist. (see attached image)

A "sell" button should remain in this window. By reducing the overload of this dialogue, there is now room for the additional 'advanced' button "copy & start <n>" reducing the workload for experienced players. (This would need a change to game mechanics to be useful for trains, allow trains to be started, regardless if the track is free, they should stack up in the depot and leave it after the way is free. it's a pain in the **** to start more than a couple of trains at the moment, particulary in network games with lag and no fast forward!)

Creating convoys without a line, just a schedule is, i think mostly a relic from the past, with some very specialised applications. However it can be a trap for new players. Let's have it as an exception, available to get, but you have to look for it. I think an entry in the combo box: "create vehicle without line" would be sufficient. May i ask, why is it still necessary to have vehicles without lines?

Oh, btw, the buy/append/sell is extremely awkward to use! I very rarely do so, mostly i just click the parts of a consist away and assemble again. This i think really needs some thought, or perhaps can be dropped altogether if it's not used frequently by others.

I hope i'm not going to far, but i think the recent discussion showed that this dialogue is at the edge of what it could take.

ps: with drop-down i meant the combo-box

EDIT: added an edited screenshot to display what i meant
EDIT2: fixed ommission in the appended image, added image for second screen of dialogue

[skreyola]

I like sdog's screenshots and ideas, but I think the first view should keep the disassemble and possibly the new line buttons. Sometimes, you want to rearrange your convoy, and clicking every car can be tedious, especially if you play using really long trains. I certainly want to keep the option of no line, because I don't always want to put a train on a line, especially if its job is only temporary.
Definitely in favor of a start queue for train depots.
Thank you all for your hard work, coders.

[TurfIt]

This text layout will fail with many languages using longer words (like german, finnish, hunagrian, etc.) Also the depot frame is already very large in its current state and prevents simutrans from working properly on some smartphones.

Maybe just add one a button that opens the convoi detail dialogue of that convoi; that way one could even reuse the existing GUI ...

The layout I added up top is exactly the same as what's currently used down below in the vehicle info section. Except I squeezed 'Gear:' in, but that could go. (would be nice to completely rip the whole gear concept out of the game but that's a whole other topic.  ) I see the vehicles, station tiles line does overflow in a couple languages, shorter words would be nice! Or, is the vehicle count actually useful?

Adjusting the element spacing in the dialog to be consistent with the other game dialogs saves 14 pixels. So adding 2 more text lines to the convoi info section results in 8 bigger... Using some of sdogs ideas can save 39 more.

Calling up the convoi detail could work. Would be better if it actually contained some useful convoi details though. But, I think the spirit of this request is to get useful information such as convoi capacity directly in the dialog. Now what all counts as useful, and what'll fit?

It would already work if it was only a non interactive bar with ticks at the length of station tiles. Alternatively having gray sections of the length of a station tile that get partially or fully highlighted when they are filled up by a convoy.

Effectively this would be that same as I've done, just a different graphic. I used the existing speedbar widget as it was readily available. Note fixed ticks won't work; The vehicles comprising the convoi are displayed in a fixed width grid with 24 spaces across the screen. The length of an individual vehicle doesn't change the horizontal placement in the display.

I don't follow your alternative suggestion. Mock up?

I don't think that moving the vehicle information from the bottom is good.  The top portion seems be more for consist information and the bottom for vehicle, which especially makes sense with the icons for already-bought and available-for-purchase vehicles at the bottom.

The vehicle info is still at the bottom. Doesn't show in my screen shot as I didn't have a vehicle highlighted. My first attempt at this was putting the convoi info at the bottom where there's room, but wasn't liked (by me either).

I'll see what I can do about coding a patch for this, if I can ever get the gui widgets and such figured out.  Any quick suggestions of files and functions to look for would be appreciated.

Main file is gui/depot_frame.cc. Warning, it's probably the most convoluted dialog frame in the whole program.
For your "up/down spin count widget" is suggest gui/components/gui_numberinput.cc is what your looking for.
To actually implement a purchase limit, you'll be into many more.

Still one could use the currently selected line automatically for the convoi.

line-combox

<start> <change schedule> <copy> <sell>

Sell/dissamble can be in principle achieved in other was. Although I use <sell> very frequently and never disassemble. But maybe clicking on the convoi does sell when the below button is on sell?

I like this single button row layout. Never use disassemble either, just as easy to click on the convoi vehicles to do so.
New line, assign line, can be done directly by the line selector combo box. If nor line selected then convoi has an individual schedule. Change schedule would allow for editing it, or if a line is selected would do the current update line function.

But why not using the convoi detail window for all the informations you want to show here instead of cluttering the dialoge again?

Why be forced to open a second dialog just to get the basic info for the convoi you're trying to assemble?

(This would need a change to game mechanics to be useful for trains, allow trains to be started, regardless if the track is free, they should stack up in the depot and leave it after the way is free.

This has been implemented for a while...

May i ask, why is it still necessary to have vehicles without lines?

I find it useful so as to not clutter up the list of lines with a whole bunch of single convoi lines.

Oh, btw, the buy/append/sell is extremely awkward to use! I very rarely do so, mostly i just click the parts of a consist away and assemble again. This i think really needs some thought, or perhaps can be dropped altogether if it's not used frequently by others.

Assuming you mean the Append/Put in Front/Sell vehicle action button, then I agree. Potential to gain another 14 pixels... but only if certain languages trim their words a tad...

I hope i'm not going to far, but i think the recent discussion showed that this dialogue is at the edge of what it could take.

I don't particularly care for the adding of a second dialog, but the existing one is rather full...