Show convoy capacity in depot

[sdog]

@skreyola

the idea was to have a dropdown in the combo box that looks like this:

<create new line>
<set schedule without line>
(1) Line
(2) Line
.
.
.

In normal simutrans, i usualy just sell the whole convoy, instead of dissasembling it. It is a different matter in simutrans experimental, where i want to keep an old engine sometimes. But then i usually just click the engine away and sell the rest. In the economic model of simutrans it doesn't matter if you sell it or dissasemble it. You shift money just from 'Assets' to 'Account Balance', the difference in depreciation is negligible anyway.


@TurfIt

Effectively this would be that same as I've done, just a different graphic. I used the existing speedbar widget as it was readily available. Note fixed ticks won't work; The vehicles comprising the convoi are displayed in a fixed width grid with 24 spaces across the screen. The length of an individual vehicle doesn't change the horizontal placement in the display.

Ah, i overlooked that vehicles don't have to be of half a tile length.

"(This would need a change to game mechanics to be useful for trains, allow trains to be started, regardless if the track is free, they should stack up in the depot and leave it after the way is free."
This has been implemented for a while...

But only for the first convoy, the next will still have to wait until the depot is free. It would be desirable to queue up all immediately after pressing start.

Im not sure if it would be wise to remove the functionality to create new lines at the depot dialogue, this is i think the main way new lines are created.

[TurfIt]

the idea was to have a dropdown in the combo box that looks like this:

<create new line>
<set schedule without line>
(1) Line
(2) Line
.

That's what I got from your/prissis suggestion.

But only for the first convoy, the next will still have to wait until the depot is free. It would be desirable to queue up all immediately after pressing start.

Just hit start for every convoi you want to start. They'll queue up and leave as the track blocks become available. This might be only in the Nightlies though...

Im not sure if it would be wise to remove the functionality to create new lines at the depot dialogue, this is i think the main way new lines are created.

No, but as an item in the line selector I think works instead of a separate button taking up space.

[sdog]

Oh, just realized i've been playing stable the first time in years, since it's running on timothy's server. That stacking up of start orders is a very good feature -- thanks for coding!

Didn't realize the combo box included the create new line already. I think the button to activate the selection in the combo box should be quite close to the selection however.

[TurfIt]

Thanks for coding the multiple train starting goes to prissi.

Combo box doesn't already include new line. That could be added if this rearrangement goes ahead. I was thinking to  activate it if selected in the list, no separate button

[jamespetts]

I'm really not sure that a big layout change is needed to enable people to predict whether buying the next vehicle will make the train too long for the station, and the current layout is, I think, somewhat clearer than the above. There is a much, much easier way of doing this: when one mouses over a vehicle, display in brackets after "station tiles" the number of station tiles that the train would occupy if that vehicle were added to the convoy.

[prissi]

In TurfIt's layout I like. As for the size: Maybe one could make the convoi info optional (by a setting in simuconf.tab). That way nearly everyone by smartphone owner could use full dialogue.

I am still wondering, if one should not use the text for xxx oassengers yy barrels of oil as the category texts are available. But if everyone is happy with icons, I can live with them too.

[jamespetts]

Hmm - the problem with TurfIt's layout is that it omits "New Line"; I don't know about other people, but my workflow when creating new lines is to create a convoy in the depot, then create the line for it using the "New Line" button in the depot window. It would be fiddly to have to do that from the line management window.

[An_dz]

OK, the discussion here was growing and I was just reading, but now I want to give my contribution. My idea for the depot window:

The station tiles can grow assuming the Length parameter. That's the purpose of length value. Am I right?

Edit: Explanation:
As you can see on my idea the station tiles are shown and the option of the highest station on the schedule can be added.
And the idea of the limiter can also be used, but not with a box where you add the numbers, but clicking on the station bar.
The other good point on my option is that it leave a whole line for the convoy capacity, meaning it can show the products it can carry just like prissi wants, and I want. With text.

[sdog]

@james: in TurfIt's suggestion the create new line would be the first option in the drop down menu (combo box, because it has left right buttons) containing the lines. Selecting it would automatically open a new line dialogue, as does pressing the <new line> button right now.

[TrainMith]

The station tiles can grow assuming the Length parameter. That's the purpose of length value. Am I right?

The idea was that the proposed convoi length limit can increase or decrease so that adding vehicles to a convoi will not exceed a certain number of tiles, which may or may not be the same as the length of a station on its schedule.  This length limit would be adjustable in-game, at any time, and at the user's desire.  It is also different from the hard-coded limit which is currently found in the game, but may be set to that same value. 

An_dz, is this a better explanation?

[An_dz]

In truth no TrainMith, my question was if the length value worked the way I asked. Anyway I understood what you said.
And I must say that I don't like this idea. For this reason:
1. If the number is coded, the player, in this case me, will need to keep changing the number every time a new convoy is needed, and this will make the game so boring. BUT...

As you can see on my idea the station tiles are shown and the option of the highest station on the schedule can be added.
And the idea of the limiter can also be used, but not with a box where you add the numbers, but clicking on the station bar.
The other good point on my option is that it leave a whole line for the convoy capacity, meaning it can show the products it can carry just like prissi wants, and I want. With text.

[jamespetts]

@james: in TurfIt's suggestion the create new line would be the first option in the drop down menu (combo box, because it has left right buttons) containing the lines. Selecting it would automatically open a new line dialogue, as does pressing the <new line> button right now.

Hmm - but won't that involve two clicks for what currently takes one click?

[sdog]

Not assigning a line, just a single schedule is the exception, isn't it? Assigning a line is the most common use scenario.

Have an entry in the combo box <set schedule, no line> selecting it will automatically open the change schedule dialogue, the entry will persist.

The start button however could become "Assign line & Start" assigning the line in the combo box (and it stays persistent as it is now). The exception is when <set schedule, no line> is selected in the box, then the button changes to "Start".

This would streamline the most common use scenario without making the less typical schedule one too awkward to use.

[Fifty]

These improvements to the depot dialogue look very good -- thank you TurfIt.

I don't know if some of these things are feasible, but let me put in my two cents.

I like only having one bar of buttons -- start, schedule, copy, and sell. What if when you pressed schedule, the current schedule dialogue opens, but it automatically creates a new line with the schedule. Then, in place of the current 'promote to line' button, there is an option for 'no line' which would revert to standard, line-free scheduling. If you selected a line in the drop down box, then pressed 'schedule,' that could be treated like 'update line.' I think this would preserve almost all functionality with no extra clicks, and at the same time, make naming new lines much easier upon creation (so you can see the schedule while naming).

You could save space on the bottom by changing [] Show all and [] Show obsolete to simply Show: [] Obsolete [] All. That might help save space there for the Vehicle arrangement button, which could be shortened (in English at least) to simply back, front, sell. I don't use put in front, but sell is useful, particularly with netgame lag.

I tend to agree with jamespetts that the ruler is not as useful for me, but I personally use consists of many different sizes for different goods in different eras. I am fairly sure there is no penalty for selling back vehicles as long as the month does not change. I think any limiter could really confuse people.

[An_dz]

I liked the idea to remove the line buttons, but don't automatically create a line clicking on schedule, but maybe add a way to create a line on schedule dialog. Also can add a button to open the line management dialog.

And the change of the Show buttons is not so good, cause you need to remember there are more than just one language on Simutrans. In Portuguese there's not much problem on this part cause the translation won't be so big, but there are languages that are not the same. Václav was talking about Czech was difficult to translate for the small spaces. The good point is that prissi and Dwachs speak German and German have probably the longest words.

The ruler on my idea is by clicking on the ruler where you want the max convoy size and it fills it with a color and then as you buy vehicles it fills with another color.

[skreyola]

In normal simutrans, i usualy just sell the whole convoy, instead of dissasembling it. It is a

You're not the only player. I often disassemble, and I play standard. The disassemble button should probably be available... unless a poll is taken and people overwhelmingly don't use it.

Im not sure if it would be wise to remove the functionality to create new lines at the depot dialogue, this is i think the main way new lines are created.

It is for me, anyway. I don't think I've ever created a line from the line management window.

I am still wondering, if one should not use the text for xxx oassengers yy barrels of oil as the category texts are available. But if everyone is happy with icons, I can live with them too.

I like the icons. They're space efficient, and they tell me what I need to know for most trains. It's usually not feasible to have mixed cargo trains for goods.

I think what's actually needed here is not a limiter (that prevents buying the next car) but a warning (that lets you know that buying a particular car will reach the desired station length), and I think it should change the color of the bars under the cars in the option pane, the way (if you have show all checked) they change from green to red to green as the constraints are met or not. Perhaps an amber or orange (yellow is already taken for the half-bar meaning of two-part car). Pre-purchase feedback is the only thing that will decrease the number of clicks the user has to make to buy enough pax cars to fill the station with enough space left to add a single mail car (which is how I usually build my city trains). I guess I could put the mail car first, but I just like it on the end (and with one of the bullet-type trains, you can't put a mail car in the middle).

An_dz's ruler gave me an idea: What if, instead of marking the whole train, the ruler marks the portion of the last tile the train requires is filled? So, for a train that requires five map tiles, it would show how many (out of the station tile length) length units are used in the last tile. Then, you could see that on the fifth tile, the train is using up 8 of the 16 length units, so you'd know you could add that length=8 car and keep it in five tiles, but not that length=10 observation car. Or if your train is falling to 4tiles, 9 units, you would know you can't add a length=8 car but would have room for a length=6 car. If this is done, I think the ruler should show binary marks like English-measure rulers (1/2,1/4,1/8,1/16).

[TrainMith]

I don't think I've ever created a line from the line management window.

Myself, I use whatever is the least number of inputs:  If I have the depot dialog open, I use that; if not, I use the the line management dialog.

I think what's actually needed here is not a limiter (that prevents buying the next car) but a warning (that lets you know that buying a particular car will reach the desired station length), and I think it should change the color of the bars under the cars in the option pane, the way (if you have show all checked) they change from green to red to green as the constraints are met or not. Perhaps an amber or orange (yellow is already taken for the half-bar meaning of two-part car). Pre-purchase feedback is the only thing that will decrease the number of clicks the user has to make to buy enough pax cars to fill the station with enough space left to add a single mail car (which is how I usually build my city trains).

Another good idea, but I would prefer the prevention of purchasing.  Especially when purchasing a fair amount of a vehicle, I use the left mouse button rather rapidly and, even though I have counted out the exact number mentally, it occasionally will either over or under record how many clicks.  I've noticed this with the SDL library with other applications, too.

An_dz's ruler gave me an idea: What if, instead of marking the whole train, the ruler marks the portion of the last tile the train requires is filled? So, for a train that requires five map tiles, it would show how many (out of the station tile length) length units are used in the last tile. Then, you could see that on the fifth tile, the train is using up 8 of the 16 length units, so you'd know you could add that length=8 car and keep it in five tiles, but not that length=10 observation car. Or if your train is falling to 4tiles, 9 units, you would know you can't add a length=8 car but would have room for a length=6 car. If this is done, I think the ruler should show binary marks like English-measure rulers (1/2,1/4,1/8,1/16).

I actually like the ruler as it originally was shown.  Your idea of the vehicle option bar changing color would help moreso than the remaining length units shown.  I think everyone is still misunderstanding there is a translation when going from the actual vehicle length to the graphical representation, so even if you can eyeball correctly what looks to fit, will in fact not fit.  Unless of course more text is added to the dialog, explicitly stating the length, such as in your (quoted) example.

[An_dz]

The ruler is not so useful to me, I just added it cause people were asking, what I really want to show is give an idea for the convoy infos. Specially the big space to show the capacity.

About a text to explain the ruler, it can be a tooltip, and when you point over the end of the filled part it can show how much tiles/units are being used.

I try to make all my vehicle have a line, cause I think it's cool use the line management. It's easier to see infos about the line, and it's easier to add more vehicles to existing lines, modify them is also cool for big cities.

[skreyola]

I actually like the ruler as it originally was shown.  Your idea of the vehicle option bar changing color would help moreso than the remaining length units shown.  I think everyone is still misunderstanding there is a translation when going from the actual vehicle length to the graphical representation, so even if you can eyeball correctly what looks to fit, will in fact not fit.  Unless of course more text is added to the dialog, explicitly stating the length, such as in your (quoted) example.

I'm being unclear. Forgive me.
The ruler I now think would be best is not a 1:1 graphical representation for people to eyeball but a full-width expansion of the portion of a station tile the end of the train consumes. This would help players internalize the relative lengths of particular cars and help us prevent overbuying by making it more apparent when the end of the tile is approaching.
And perhaps when the player hovers over a car to add, it could show on whatever ruler is adopted how long the train will be if the car is added (in a different color so the player can see the impact).

@An_dz: Perhaps the information I want can be easily tucked away in a tooltip that shows if you hover over the "(Station tiles: 9)" text: "This convoy uses 8 and 5/16 station tiles." or something like that... but I still think a graphical ruler would be useful for this.

[Fabio]

I fuel again this discussion, quoting here some thoughts I had in another thread.

Just considering things aloud, not actually requesting any of them, pushed by Hajo's thoughts.

In depot you create a convoy. Then you can select a line from a drop down box. In the list there could:
- <Individual schedule>
- <New line>
- Line 1
- etc...
- <Reset>

If you select   <Individual schedule> the schedule dialog will appear. If the convoy has already an individual schedule or a line assigned, the new schedule will be created letting you edit the existing one.

If you select  <New line> the schedule dialog will appear again, but this time creating a new line, which will be automatically assigned when you close the dialog.

If you select a line that line will be automatically assigned.

If you select <Reset>, all line or schedule info will be forgotten.

This way buttons could be greatly simplified:
- drop down box for line and schedule management
- a small arrow near it: it will open line management window selecting the line in the box. If the convoy has an <Individual schedule> set, it will open the schedule dialog instead.
- copy convoy
- start
- start from nearest station: a new tool which will calculate which station in the schedule is shorter to reach from depot location.


Also schedule button in vehicle dialog would be redundant: enough to have the same drop down box, if you select 
<Individual schedule> the schedule dialog will appear. The same small arrow could redirect you to line management window selecting the appropriate line.

Editing or deleting a line can be done only from line management window.
A nice extension to this window would be a new button "withdraw obsolete".

Sounds like where we were headed with Show convoy capacity in depot. Still on my TODO list reworking the depot dialog. Can't believe that was August that conversation! Someday...

[Spike]

The good point is that prissi and Dwachs speak German and German have probably the longest words.

Finnish has the longest words of European languages.

[An_dz]

Poor Finnish... They'll have trouble translating Simutrans.

[TurfIt]

BLTN... posted up for comments on form/function.
All the previous functions retained (except 'delete line'), new info added, dialog size maintained - at least until the new margins were added.

[IgorEliezer]

?

??

YAY!!!

[TurfIt]

? ? ? !
Not sure what happened there. Edited my last to make sense.

[TurfIt]

<crickets>



Maybe a pretty picture:


And a compiled version for testing:
EDIT: removed.

[greenling]

Turfit
Your Patch looks good out.
I like it.

[Fabio]

Finally this is revived! I can't wait to see it committed, it's a great improvement!

[prissi]

Looks indeed nice.

[IgorEliezer]

Pretty nice. I can't wait TurfIt turfing it in the code.

[ӔO]

I like it!

[TurfIt]

I'm about to commit this. Several translations need changing which I can't do.
Is it preferred to have the printf format specifiers in the translation string or not? There's a couple places I can change this.

Code Select Expand



New: (strings added to code)
"<no schedule set>"
"<individual schedule>"
"<create new line>"
"--------------------------------"
"Can't buy obsolete vehicles!"
"Cost: %6d$ (%.2f$/km)\n"
"Power: %4d kW\n"
"Weight:" - would require 4 different translation entries if format specifiers included
"Capacity:" - see below


Deprecated: (strings no longer in code)
"Move the selected vehicle(s) back to the depot"
"Lines are used to manage groups of vehicles"
"Add the selected vehicle(s) to the selected line"
"Aufloesen"
"%s\nCost: %d$ (%1.2f$/km)\nPower: %dkW\nTop speed: %dkm/h\nWeight: %dt\n"
"%s\nCost:     %d$ (%1.2f$/km)\nCapacity: %d%s %s\nWeight: %dt\nTop speed: %dkm/h\n"


Translation change required: (code has old text as requested, should be translated as follows:)
"Give the selected vehicle(s) an individual schedule" to "Edit the selected vehicle(s) individual schedule or assigned line" - tooltip
"Capacity: %d%s %s\n" to "Capacity: %3d%s %s\n" - could be combined with new Capacity: above if format string not translated.


Show button text change if desired: (original text in code changed to new text)
"Show obsolete" to "obsolete"
"Show all" split into "Show:" and "all"


Old but missing: (in code pre-patch but not in translator)
"1 convoi"
"keine Fahrzeuge" - should never happen - would be a logic error in the code if this is ever displayed.


EDIT: updated list based on discussion below.

[prissi]

There are some errors. Assemble a convoi without show all, then sell them. The window in empty, no convois can be selected without closing the window. It does not happen always though. Furthermore, selecting a line needs two clicks, same as for deselecting. The schedule is correctly set though, just the string does not update correctly.

About the tranlations:

I think it would be good to have the format specifiers with the tranlations.

Do you mean to change the translations or the source strings. If you mean the latter, please do not change them in simutrans, since these are essentiall identical. Change them in Simutranslator instead. The tooltip ("Give the selected vehicle(s) an individual schedule" to "Edit the selected vehicle(s) individual schedule or assigned line") change be changes, since it is no essential to a dialoge.

Also the space for Convoi 1 of 1 is way too short for almost all languages in simutranslator. Add another 80 pixels or so, please.

The splitting of "Show all" and "Show obsolete" is possible in english, but does not go neccessarily well in other languages. Also it leads to a button "obsolete" with is very far away from the Show. Using the Simutrans standard button, the text will be to the right. Also there are now translations for Show all und Show obsolete

"Capacity: %d%s %s\n" again, change this on translator
"Constructed by %s" change on translator. Or let me add there the break, it is really simple for all languages. Otherwise the essential text would lacking for most of them. And filling those is painfully slow on simutranslator.

In any case, please put the changes into base.tab.

Other than that it seems working.

I just could not understand: What does the brown box mean when attaching stuff? If it is connected with fille tiles, then is seems to operate on length 8 instead of lenght 16.

[TurfIt]

There are some errors.

The patch above is quite old. New one attached that resolves many behavioural issues, especially in networkmode.
I can't duplicate your finding with the current patch.

I think it would be good to have the format specifiers with the tranlations.

It should be done consistently IMHO. I can change the existing ones so that all have the format specifiers in the translation. I see 5 that are a straight change, and 2 that will expand to 6 translation entries required. The text for the 2 is the same, but there's 3 different formats following - Weight: and Max Speed:.

Do you mean to change the translations or the source strings. If you mean the latter, please do not change them in simutrans, since these are essentiall identical. Change them in Simutranslator instead.

I meant to change in the code. IMHO the code should contain the 'correct' English text. Having to look up things in the .tabs to figure out the meaning in the code is less than optimal, and extremely error prone...

Also the space for Convoi 1 of 1 is way too short for almost all languages in simutranslator. Add another 80 pixels or so, please.

Done. Looks like way to much open space to me...

The splitting of "Show all" and "Show obsolete" is possible in english, but does not go neccessarily well in other languages. Also it leads to a button "obsolete" with is very far away from the Show.

Was split to make room on the line as before the complaint was not enough room. Two shows is redundant but can be changed back. In the meantime, I shortened the distance. The button positioning is also dynamic to allow for longer texts.

In any case, please put the changes into base.tab.

Will do once a final version is ready. What does this file do?
A SimuTranslator 101 would be handy.

I just could not understand: What does the brown box mean when attaching stuff? If it is connected with fille tiles, then is seems to operate on length 8 instead of lenght 16.

The speedbar below the convoi shows how much of each tile is free, and when hovering over a vehicle to add, shows also how much of the free space will be used by this vehicle. It seems to be working correctly to me, although it uses the true convoi length, not the fake one that shows extra tiles not needed for the convoi to fully load. Try it with vehicles that aren't half a tile in length, makes more sense then.

[prissi]

About the length indicator: I say the leight brown. But still wouldn't it make more sense to use full tiles instead half tiles. Currently is stays the same color even if the same vehicle attached again would go over a tile or not. The indicator seems to use rather half-tiles. That was my main concern.

About translations: The are many text in the game which are not correct english. Please do not touch translations for this. It is already quite a work to change many entires. But transferiing a single entry to a new text needs 20 copy actions from one page to another. Thus if the translations just needs to add or remove a line brak, then I will do this in the translator.

Several languages have currently no  active translator. Also simutrans experimental is reusing those text too. Therefore, please recycle as many existing text as possible. Even if they are wrong english or german or even wierder. (Like the "world choose 1" in the new world dialogue.)

The only exception could be tooltips. There a englisch text is better than a wrong hint translation.

Well, I could only test the patch you published. Glad to hear those are fixed already.

It is approaching nighttime, so I will check your new version tomorrow.