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Author Topic: Planning game #2 on moblet.simutrans.entropy.me.uk  (Read 8812 times)

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Offline moblet

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Planning game #2 on moblet.simutrans.entropy.me.uk
« on: August 11, 2011, 11:52:33 AM »
Game #1 is still fairly new but in full flight, and is already showing us that we might want to change a few things for game #2.

The geography of the map, most of the industry placement, and the initial public motorway and highway network seem to be working really well. Do we have the right number of initial industries, and in the right places?

We haven't been strict in enforcing rules, especially with respect to regionalisation, and large poorly-utilised single player networks have sprawled across the map chasing connections. This is something we were hoping to avoid, so next time around we need to try things like allocating - and practically confining - players to regions, and/or providing more public infrastructure in high-traffic areas, perhaps including some hubs. Ideas? I'm happy to try building a public rail network, we'd just have to work out how to regulate access, or try without regulation and see what happens...

We have seen some cheating also, at least one player serially claiming a free player and driving it bankrupt building infrastructure to suit their primary player. They continued doing it right beneath a sign telling them to stop doing so! This is making me think we should lock all players and allow entry upon request through the forum, which will both block this exploit and make sure we know who is playing and that they are consulting the forums. What do others think?

Lastly is the question of realism and building over high mountains, specifically how should we prevent players from simply laying ways straight over the Alps? Only ideas I have are to ban construction of through-ways above a certain height level (2 or 3, single dead-end ways to access factories are fine) or to plant a line of trees around the mountains which no one may cross (perhaps enforced by an extreme tree removal cost but I wouldn't want anyone going bankrupt because they accidentally hit delete on the wrong tile, especially knowing what lag can do).

Offline Fifty

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Re: Planning game #2 on moblet.simutrans.entropy.me.uk
« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2011, 03:26:27 PM »
Here is one idea as to how to deal with boundaries, ect.

This splits the map into four roughly equal quadrants for freight (White) and Passengers (Green). The Pink dots would be public freight interchanges. Red circles are shared resources between bordering players.



This way, players can select one of four regions, know general (but not exact line-in-sand boundaries), and say whether they want to do freight, pax, or both in the region. I think with more than 4 freight players, the game will be crazy; we could have more passenger players because interchanging is much easier.

I think sign up on the forum (or in the game before) is feasible, as long as it is simple.

Let's ask timothy if it is possible to edit a) city car settings and/or b) tree removal costs without redoing the map.

Offline prissi

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Re: Planning game #2 on moblet.simutrans.entropy.me.uk
« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2011, 07:40:47 PM »
Of course it can be done. Define a random key for opening the setting dialogue, change the settig save the map. Restart the server.

Offline Ashley

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Re: Planning game #2 on moblet.simutrans.entropy.me.uk
« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2011, 11:22:57 PM »
Ideally maps should be created without trees, since they increase memory/savegame size for little gain.

And I'd guess that city car density is saved in the savegame?

Offline TrainMith

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Re: Planning game #2 on moblet.simutrans.entropy.me.uk
« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2011, 01:06:00 AM »
Firstly, if the offensive user is switching players from within the game, I would suggest requiring all (or at least a majority) of the other users giving a consenting vote to allow the switch. 
Secondly, if the offensive user is logging on a second time from another client, I would then suggest the solution most MMORGs have been employing:  a user account which retains information as to which game the user is playing and disallowing any other login other than a reconnection.

Mind you, I have not played a multi-user game yet. 

As to the situation of multiple players running parallel tracks at places, this actually was quite frequently done within cities.  My hometown, back in the late 1800's and early 1900's, had three separate railroad companies with parallel track (within about 200 feet of eachother, at the extreme) for an expanse of perhaps 1.5 miles.  Two of those railroads even went so far as to parallel to nearly the next major city (a good 12 to 13 mile length), but otherwise the lines separated to different destinations outside of the city.  Typically though, these railroads were chartered, by the state (or federal) government, to service different routes and major destination cities.  Originally in Michigan, there were 3 railroads that were to service the eastern city of Detroit, with different western destinations.  So, I would say it should be expected to happen, except if enticed by loan of money or some such, to travel elsewhere first and then later to connect to the same second city.  Yes, I'm aware that the current convention is not to offer subsidies, such as those similar to OTTD.

Offline moblet

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Re: Planning game #2 on moblet.simutrans.entropy.me.uk
« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2011, 04:35:41 AM »
Here is one idea as to how to deal with boundaries
This looks like a good plan to me, I vote we try it for game #2. Do you propose that we build the goods interchanges into the savegame or evolve them as we go along?
Of course it can be done. Define a random key for opening the setting dialogue, change the settig save the map. Restart the server.
This sounds like good news, although I didn't understand what to do. Did anyone else?
Ideally maps should be created without trees, since they increase memory/savegame size for little gain.
Fifty, is there a good reason why we couldn't just ban constructing through-ways above a given height level? This is so easy to implement and monitor compared with spotting trees all over the place and increasing the file size.
Firstly, if the offensive user is switching players from within the game, I would suggest requiring all (or at least a majority) of the other users giving a consenting vote to allow the switch.
The player is simply cheating, this server is not intended for those who want to cheat.
Secondly, if the offensive user is logging on a second time from another client, I would then suggest the solution most MMORGs have been employing:  a user account which retains information as to which game the user is playing and disallowing any other login other than a reconnection.
Through this process of trying to administer multiplay we will generate a list of nice-to-haves in multiplayer Simutrans. This is one way to manage that problem, another, which we can and will try with the existing game, is joining by application via the forum.
As to the situation of multiple players running parallel tracks at places, this actually was quite frequently done within cities.
True, but the scale in Simutrans is different to the real world. In one recent game four players all sought to supply the same shopping centre. The shopping centre occupied 12 tiles, the surrounding yards 30 tiles, not to mention three rail lines approaching from three directions and all the yards at the other end. All this and still the shopping centre wasn't saturated with all products. 29 of those 30 tiles, and the rail lines, were very poorly utilised. This consumption of space isn't sustainable on a growing map.
I think sign up on the forum (or in the game before) is feasible, as long as it is simple.
My plan is:
- Start a forum thread dedicated to player entry, and put a sign at the game's opening scene directing players there.
- If we go with the proposed regions, set up 8 players named East Pax, East Goods, North Pax, etc, and name the rest Unused or something.
- Lock all players with the same password for easy admin.
- Each new player posts in the forum thread requesting a player, and can request a particular one if available. If the player wants to do both pax and goods then one of the players for that region is renamed, say, East Pax & Goods and the other is set to Unused.
- Next admin who sees the request changes the player password to something individual, sends it by PM to the player, and confirms this on the forum so other admins know it's been done.

I'm thinking it might be good for players to retain those names rather than customise them for the time being, to reinforce the region concept, since it's new here.

What do people think of setting out the cities on nice consistent grids to start the game? I can do that. Is 2x4 tiles the optimal city block size?


Offline sdog

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Re: Planning game #2 on moblet.simutrans.entropy.me.uk
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2011, 06:26:26 AM »
True, but the scale in Simutrans is different to the real world. In one recent game four players all sought to supply the same shopping centre. The shopping centre occupied 12 tiles, the surrounding yards 30 tiles, not to mention three rail lines approaching from three directions and all the yards at the other end. All this and still the shopping centre wasn't saturated with all products. 29 of those 30 tiles, and the rail lines, were very poorly utilised. This consumption of space isn't sustainable on a growing map.
It is also disadvantageous for the players, instead of trying to fix it with rules, you could try to encourage cooperation in such circumstance. Encourage the first player to supply such a very well connected consumer to also build interface stations. He will also profit from the extra goods to transport.

Offline moblet

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Re: Planning game #2 on moblet.simutrans.entropy.me.uk
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2011, 07:14:23 AM »
We are attempting to solve it by giving each player their own territory, with exclusive rights to either goods or passenger/mail transport, or all transport if they want it. That way we have a maximum of two players wanting to build in the same area, and if they do want to build in the same area they aren't doing it with competing commercial objectives.

Offline moblet

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Re: Planning game #2 on moblet.simutrans.entropy.me.uk
« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2011, 07:35:10 AM »
Define a random key for opening the setting dialogue, change the settig save the map. Restart the server.
Does anyone know how to do this? We would like to switch off city cars for our next game but don't want to have to rebuild the savegame.

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: Planning game #2 on moblet.simutrans.entropy.me.uk
« Reply #9 on: August 14, 2011, 10:44:01 AM »
Does anyone know how to do this? We would like to switch off city cars for our next game but don't want to have to rebuild the savegame.

To change the settings in an online game, you have to load the saved game in a single player configuration, change the setting there, then re-load it on the server, the server being offline all the while. The reason for this is that changes to the settings are not propagated to the clients, so desynchronisation would result if settings were changed on a running server. Also, it is not possible to invoke the settings dialogue other than on the server itself, which usually runs in no graphics mode in any event. Indeed, pressing the key assigned to invoke the settings dialogue on the client invokes that dialogue on the server, where, if it is running in no graphics mode, it cannot be seen nor interacted with.

Offline Ashley

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Re: Planning game #2 on moblet.simutrans.entropy.me.uk
« Reply #10 on: August 14, 2011, 10:57:30 AM »
You need to be careful that you run the graphical client you're using to make the modification with the -server switch though.

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: Planning game #2 on moblet.simutrans.entropy.me.uk
« Reply #11 on: August 14, 2011, 11:31:35 AM »
Is this necessary if one is loading the game in a client, changing the settings, then re-loading it in a server?

Offline Ashley

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Re: Planning game #2 on moblet.simutrans.entropy.me.uk
« Reply #12 on: August 14, 2011, 11:42:48 AM »
Yes, client savegames and server savegames differ, e.g. Player passwords aren't saved between the two.

Offline moblet

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Re: Planning game #2 on moblet.simutrans.entropy.me.uk
« Reply #13 on: August 14, 2011, 12:10:49 PM »
Thanks chaps. I believe that worked.

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: Planning game #2 on moblet.simutrans.entropy.me.uk
« Reply #14 on: August 14, 2011, 12:18:10 PM »
Timothy: when I load games in single player that have been saved by a server, the players are all password protected. Perhaps this is in the latest nightlies, not the latest stable?

Offline Ashley

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Re: Planning game #2 on moblet.simutrans.entropy.me.uk
« Reply #15 on: August 14, 2011, 12:26:23 PM »
What about the other way around?

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: Planning game #2 on moblet.simutrans.entropy.me.uk
« Reply #16 on: August 14, 2011, 12:34:04 PM »
Ah, I haven't tried that; but re-saving and re-loading in single-player preserves passwords, so presumably this will also work when loading in the server?

Offline moblet

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Re: Planning game #2 on moblet.simutrans.entropy.me.uk
« Reply #17 on: August 20, 2011, 06:49:53 AM »
To change the settings in an online game, you have to load the saved game in a single player configuration, change the setting there, then re-load it on the server, the server being offline all the while.
I tried this for setting up game #2 and it hasn't worked. The only procedure I could see was:
1. Start Simutrans
2. Click New Game
3. Ciick Settings and make changes
4. Click Load Game and open the target savegame
5. Save the game

Offline TurfIt

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Re: Planning game #2 on moblet.simutrans.entropy.me.uk
« Reply #18 on: August 20, 2011, 07:06:09 AM »
Yes, client savegames and server savegames differ, e.g. Player passwords aren't saved between the two.
Once upon a time in development this was the case. They are currently identical. As they were for the last stable.


I tried this for setting up game #2 and it hasn't worked. The only procedure I could see was:
What is that supposed to accomplish?

If you want to change the settings in an existing game, you must load it first, then change settings in the settings dialog. You'll need to bind your own key to get in as pak128-1150 doesn't have it. Also, make sure game time runs a few seconds before entering the settings dialog, there's an as yet unresolved issue where it doesn't show the correct current settings if the game is loaded paused.

Offline moblet

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Re: Planning game #2 on moblet.simutrans.entropy.me.uk
« Reply #19 on: August 20, 2011, 08:21:25 AM »
You'll need to bind your own key
I don't know what this means. Can someone point me at an explanation?

Offline TurfIt

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Re: Planning game #2 on moblet.simutrans.entropy.me.uk
« Reply #20 on: August 20, 2011, 05:08:28 PM »
Edit your pak128.open.r1150/config/menuconf.tab from
Code: [Select]
#dialog_tool[27]=to
Code: [Select]
dialog_tool[27]=,~

Load your savegame (with time running)
Hit ~ key.
Make settings changes
Exit settings dialog
Resave the game



Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: Planning game #2 on moblet.simutrans.entropy.me.uk
« Reply #21 on: August 20, 2011, 05:41:20 PM »
Just to note: in Pak128.Britain-Ex, the "i" key is assigned to this function.

Offline moblet

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Re: Planning game #2 on moblet.simutrans.entropy.me.uk
« Reply #22 on: August 21, 2011, 11:57:01 AM »
Thanks Turfit, it's easy when you know how  ;)

This is very useful to those of us experimenting with savegames for online play.

One extra step in there, I had to adopt a player in order to see the settings, may have been because all players in the savegame were locked.