The International Simutrans Forum

 

Author Topic: altering schedule to allow for trains to stop and turn back  (Read 6105 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline jap train fan

  • *
  • Posts: 114
  • i'm from australia and proud of it
altering schedule to allow for trains to stop and turn back
« on: October 13, 2011, 12:00:56 PM »
Could there be a feature in simutrans to allow trains to stop at a station and turning back with out going to the next stop.
eg.
a --------------b -------------------c--------------d----------------------e
The train would trave from a to b then to c. It then turns around and goes back to b instead of contiuning to d and e

I know this can alerady be done by transfering a convey to a new line but I would prefer if this feature could be intergrated into the existing line and it is annoying to always creating new lines and moving conveys to the new lines and then back.

Alsso, diverting trains would be another useful feature.
eg.

A convoy will divert from the ususal route (black) to the alternate route (red) due to traffic jams,the route being over crowded or overtaking of conveys.

Please post for your support for this idea.
edit: picture does not work for second idea. please see
http://www.flickr.com/photos/nicholasnothing/6240078473/in/photostream
« Last Edit: October 13, 2011, 12:16:06 PM by jap train fan »

Offline Carl

  • Devotee
  • *
  • Posts: 1599
    • Website
  • Languages: EN
Re: altering schedule to allow for trains to stop and turn back
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2011, 07:43:14 PM »
On the first point: can't you just give the train a more complex schedule, such as A-B-C-B-A-B-C-D-E-D-C-B-A, or something like that? I'm not entirely sure I understand the problem with the existing station.

Offline Junna

  • Devotee
  • *
  • Posts: 1082
Re: altering schedule to allow for trains to stop and turn back
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2011, 09:20:11 PM »
Could there be a feature in simutrans to allow trains to stop at a station and turning back with out going to the next stop.
eg.
a --------------b -------------------c--------------d----------------------e
The train would trave from a to b then to c. It then turns around and goes back to b instead of contiuning to d and e

I know this can alerady be done by transfering a convey to a new line but I would prefer if this feature could be intergrated into the existing line and it is annoying to always creating new lines and moving conveys to the new lines and then back.

What would be the use of this? What if there are passengers in the train to the stations d and e? In reality such things are operated as different lines (services, that is) and not random trains terminating without prior notification that it is a truncated service. You are probably better off operating two services on the line with one stopping and reversing (perhaps at a different platform), or doing as carlbaker suggested.

The latter feature could definitely be useful (if there are no stations on the route), but I imagine it would be very difficult to implement because of how path-finding is coded.

Offline jap train fan

  • *
  • Posts: 114
  • i'm from australia and proud of it
Re: altering schedule to allow for trains to stop and turn back
« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2011, 05:15:33 AM »
ok then scrap the first idea. For the second idea we could make a line and then the line can contain many routes which could be switched from one another like changing lines. (like a line within a line or something like that(hard to explain))

Offline ӔO

  • Devotees (Inactive)
  • *
  • Posts: 2345
  • Hopefully helpful
  • Languages: en, jp
Re: altering schedule to allow for trains to stop and turn back
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2011, 07:00:08 AM »
trains that run on the same line, but have a different branch/terminal run on different schedules.
maybe it's easier to have a function where you can copy an already existing line so that you can edit it?

Offline Fabio

  • Devotee
  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 2898
  • The Pak128 Guy
    • Visit me on Facebook
  • Languages: EN, IT, RO, FR
Re: altering schedule to allow for trains to stop and turn back
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2011, 08:53:10 AM »
maybe it's easier to have a function where you can copy an already existing line so that you can edit it?

This is mostly desirable.

As a workaround i do like this:
- open the dialog for any of the vehicles belonging to the line I wish to duplicate
- open schedules
- promote schedule to line
- edit the newly created line

But I would really love a duplicate line button in line management window.

Likewise, I would like in line management window the possibility to check/uncheck vehicles listed in order to give them collective orders: mostly Withdraw and Assign to another line

Withdraw: Often I create a line with n vehicles. Over the time, I need to add new vehicles to the line, chosing from a newer model if available. At a given time, I may wish to replace the older models, but to do so I must open them individually and withdraw them; withdrawing all is useless here.

Assign to another line: currently I open the dialog, open schedules, assign an existing line there. Performing such an action on multiple vehicles would be useful indeed.

Offline Václav

  • Devotee
  • *
  • Posts: 3267
  • formerly VaclavMacurek
  • Languages: CZ, EN
Re: altering schedule to allow for trains to stop and turn back
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2011, 01:05:04 PM »
1. What you would like, it is case of line management - and setting of stations - but you need to set back route from station e to station a - because else train will go to station a on the shortest way (if any is available) - and without stopping in those other stations

2. But I know about something better - to add back route command to order as only one line - that if player would need change (very long) line, then he would need to change only the first direction (and reverse direction would be changed automatically - without tedious deleting and re-setting of stations in that reverse order)

Offline jap train fan

  • *
  • Posts: 114
  • i'm from australia and proud of it
Re: altering schedule to allow for trains to stop and turn back
« Reply #7 on: October 15, 2011, 01:37:40 AM »
that would be a valid idea too. how hard is it to code. i can code a little bit in just basic. and also can i suggest that there could be a way to join and split lines together to make like a super long line.
eg. like a goes from a to f. line b goes from g to l.
then there could be a button to join the lines together saving the time and hassle of extending line 1 or 2and one to spliit it
« Last Edit: October 15, 2011, 05:25:04 AM by jap train fan »

Offline prissi

  • Developer
  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 9518
  • Languages: De,EN,JP
Re: altering schedule to allow for trains to stop and turn back
« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2011, 06:49:35 PM »
A reverse line with trains in two one way track configuration could work extreme damage, tough.

Offline Václav

  • Devotee
  • *
  • Posts: 3267
  • formerly VaclavMacurek
  • Languages: CZ, EN
Re: altering schedule to allow for trains to stop and turn back
« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2011, 08:44:41 PM »
Could you explain it? I am really confused - mostly for I am not sure if it is opinion on my idea idea or not.

Offline prissi

  • Developer
  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 9518
  • Languages: De,EN,JP
Re: altering schedule to allow for trains to stop and turn back
« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2011, 08:56:30 PM »
If you have a circle line going clockwise in a two track layout, reversing that line will call the trains to stop at the platforms going in the wrong direction. I.e. every train has to do a nearly a full circle to go to the next stop in schedule.

Offline sdog

  • Devotee
  • *
  • Posts: 2039
Re: altering schedule to allow for trains to stop and turn back
« Reply #11 on: October 15, 2011, 09:24:36 PM »
Quote
If you have a circle line going clockwise in a two track layout, reversing that line will call the trains to stop at the platforms going in the wrong direction. I.e. every train has to do a nearly a full circle to go to the next stop in schedule.
yobbobandana's patch for reverse schedule also solves this problem. If a train encounters any platform of the station it is supposed to go it will call at it.

For a two track bi-directional setup with platforms for each direction:
The train tries to go to the platform specified in it's schedule, but to go the full circle it has to pass the station it is supposed to go in its schedule, but on the wrong platform. It will however still call at it and go to the next station. Works flawlessly in experimental for more than a year now.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2011, 09:46:02 PM by sdog »

Offline prissi

  • Developer
  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 9518
  • Languages: De,EN,JP
Re: altering schedule to allow for trains to stop and turn back
« Reply #12 on: October 16, 2011, 07:10:36 PM »
This defies completely the possibility to select a certain platform of a station if it has to pass through other plattforms (or buildings like overpasses coded as zero plattform tiles) before.

Such selection will also not yield the expected result when the stations are on sidetracks, and no platforms are on the through tracks. It additionally fails also when it can reach the next station before in less steps than needed by getting to the other side. (I just did a very quick test with that.)

That people do not complain may either due to to not using this feature or just pure luck but avoiding such track layouts. Or using choose signals everywhere, that may help too.

Offline sdog

  • Devotee
  • *
  • Posts: 2039
Re: altering schedule to allow for trains to stop and turn back
« Reply #13 on: October 16, 2011, 07:42:20 PM »
players just have to know how to use it and when not to use it.

Quote
This defies completely the possibility to select a certain platform of a station if it has to pass through other plattforms (or buildings like overpasses coded as zero plattform tiles) before.
If a player has an exotic layout where the train first has to got through a different platform to reach the platform it should go through, that player just doesn't need to turn on the reverse schedule feature.

Quote
Such selection will also not yield the expected result when the stations are on sidetracks, and no platforms are on the through tracks. It additionally fails also when it can reach the next station before in less steps than needed by getting to the other side.
(I just did a very quick test with that.)
It will show the expected result of not halting at a station when there is no platform to do that. Eg it goes through a side track. If you want to use it, you just have to build a station on each side of the bi-directional track.

If it can reach the initially designated platform within a set number of tiles it will go to the designated platform instead of calling at the first station it reaches. This was introduced to address concerns as yours stated above. (I think a mistake, since this is the only thing that constantly gives me trouble when using it.)

Quote
That people do not complain may either due to to not using this feature or just pure luck but avoiding such track layouts. Or using choose signals everywhere, that may help too.
It might also be that players understand the simple rules you have to follow to use it, and use it for much effect. Not just that circular lines are now possible, it saves a large amount of time by having to set up train lines only in one direction, not going back all the way every time to assign each station again for the return route. (mirror only works in the most simple setups)

ps.: assigning a wait until x% full order, it will also go to that explicit platform, and override the premature platform search.
pps.: the mirror button in use now, doesn't solve the issue that trains on bi-directional tracks still would try to call at the wrong platform and go the whole circle to reach the correct platform. This sounds rather trivial, but i've seen it in a case of a new player who got confused by it.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2011, 07:50:09 PM by sdog »

Offline prissi

  • Developer
  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 9518
  • Languages: De,EN,JP
Re: altering schedule to allow for trains to stop and turn back
« Reply #14 on: October 23, 2011, 06:02:38 PM »
Those implicit assumptions are already a big hurdle to many newcomers. I would like to keep such stuff which does a lot "Implicitely" out of the hands of the novices, as - like you stated - there are many way such a function could fail. (And if I can think up 3 way in one hour, player will find more.) As such this feature is fine in experimental; but thing which are already know to fail I avoid putting into standard.

Offline sdog

  • Devotee
  • *
  • Posts: 2039
Re: altering schedule to allow for trains to stop and turn back
« Reply #15 on: October 23, 2011, 11:03:40 PM »
In the way it works now in experimental, i don't think it is suitable for standard. It can be too fiddly. (i think the german word: "rumgefrickel" is the most appropriate.) On the other hand it is extremely useful.

The first question however is, do new players assume that a train goes to the exact platform assigned in the schedule or rather the station?

Perhaps it can be improved quite a bit. Some changes might make it more predictable in its use. Experimental might be the best place to do so. Could it in such a case reviewed again for inclusion in standard?

Offline wlindley us

  • Devotee
  • *
  • Posts: 975
    • Hacking for fun and profit since 1977
  • Languages: EN, DE
Re: altering schedule to allow for trains to stop and turn back
« Reply #16 on: October 24, 2011, 12:49:44 AM »
It would be quite nice, to have both an "Add Stop" button and an "Add Platform Stop" button.  The "Add Stop" would act like there were a "Choose Platform" signal before each stop; the "Add Platform Stop" would be the current behaviour.

Offline Ters

  • Coder/patcher
  • Devotee
  • *
  • Posts: 5532
  • Languages: EN, NO
Re: altering schedule to allow for trains to stop and turn back
« Reply #17 on: October 24, 2011, 04:40:34 AM »
There would still be a need for signals to limit the platform choosing, so I think it's better to keep it all as signals, rather than split it. Some time ago, I fantasized about a scriptable schedule. That could solve lots of things, but also steepen the learning curve even more.

Offline prissi

  • Developer
  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 9518
  • Languages: De,EN,JP
Re: altering schedule to allow for trains to stop and turn back
« Reply #18 on: October 24, 2011, 09:17:02 AM »
ALthough an alternative scriptable schedule would of course allow to keep it simple while experts know what they do when they start scripting. Many of the hassles with modern computer technology could have been avoided, if stuff was hidden from users but accessible to experts.

(Windows makes everything accessible by UI, the easy stuff as well as the weapons of mass destruction; here this distinction is lost. In that way PalmOS did or Andriod does better.)

Offline jamespetts gb

  • Simutrans-Extended project coordinator
  • Devotee
  • *
  • Posts: 18721
  • Cake baker
    • Bridgewater-Brunel
  • Languages: EN
Re: altering schedule to allow for trains to stop and turn back
« Reply #19 on: October 25, 2011, 08:49:40 AM »
The first question however is, do new players assume that a train goes to the exact platform assigned in the schedule or rather the station?

If it is of any help, when I first started playing Simutrans, I was surprised that the exact platform in the schedule was respected - I imagined that it was to the station generally that the train was sent. I think that "station generally" is how games such as Transport Tycoon, for example, work.

Offline Carl

  • Devotee
  • *
  • Posts: 1599
    • Website
  • Languages: EN
Re: altering schedule to allow for trains to stop and turn back
« Reply #20 on: October 25, 2011, 10:09:48 AM »
If it is of any help, when I first started playing Simutrans, I was surprised that the exact platform in the schedule was respected - I imagined that it was to the station generally that the train was sent. I think that "station generally" is how games such as Transport Tycoon, for example, work.
My reaction was the same. It should be noted, however, that there are advantages to the Simutrans behaviour. If I have a station with through platforms and dead-end platforms, I don't want through trains to go into dead-end platforms even if those are the only platforms free. This won't happen under the standard Simutrans behaviour (although it does when choose-signals are in play...).

Offline jamespetts gb

  • Simutrans-Extended project coordinator
  • Devotee
  • *
  • Posts: 18721
  • Cake baker
    • Bridgewater-Brunel
  • Languages: EN
Re: altering schedule to allow for trains to stop and turn back
« Reply #21 on: October 25, 2011, 10:22:13 AM »
Carl,

this issue doesn't arise in Experimental with the reverse route system, either, as the platform selection does not, from what I understand, apply to the first or last stop in the schedule, which are the stops on which bay platforms would be used.

Offline Carl

  • Devotee
  • *
  • Posts: 1599
    • Website
  • Languages: EN
Re: altering schedule to allow for trains to stop and turn back
« Reply #22 on: October 25, 2011, 12:12:14 PM »
Ah, I see! I had no idea. Interesting.