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Offline maister

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Maisters graphic experimentation test ground
« on: November 26, 2008, 07:08:45 PM »
At last but not least my first building for Simutrans. But is not finished yet, i need your help to finish it.
Please not hesitate to give me tips or any suggestions.

I try to make something modern. I hope is also acceptable. Ond the end I would try to make a building which one is good enough for integrating in the pak128. Therefore i need your feedback.

If im on the right way, i would also make a winter graphic and upgrade the graphic for the night.

Thanks !

(For sharpener picture; please click on the picture to expand it)
« Last Edit: November 26, 2008, 07:24:30 PM by maister »

Offline gauthier

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Re: Maisters graphic experimentation test ground
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2008, 07:25:06 PM »
The concept is very interesting  ;)
but the building needs a big anti-aliasing on its lowest level.

Re: Maisters graphic experimentation test ground
« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2008, 07:31:44 PM »
Sure looks great! I see nothing wrong with it!!

Offline maister

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Re: Maisters graphic experimentation test ground
« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2008, 07:45:00 PM »
@gauthier
I tried, but the pictures get diffuse. Which settings are the best?
Also i have the problem that blender not save the picture if i make a normal rendering. I can only save pictures with the animation-rendering??   ::) what I make wrong?

@the almighty snark
Thanks !! What can i do better?

Offline VS

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Re: Maisters graphic experimentation test ground
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2008, 07:48:03 PM »
Very nice!

But out of scale, maybe. One floor is ±14 px, and your building has 18. If the floors are meant to be higher than on normal buildings, it's ok (exactly the higher limit, 18; lower is 12). If not, too bad.

Anyway, it still looks great and the style used is definitively enough to get it in official set!

Re: Maisters graphic experimentation test ground
« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2008, 08:12:25 PM »
VS, is there a specific guideline for stuff to be included in the official set? And should it be submitted somewhere?

Offline VS

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Re: Maisters graphic experimentation test ground
« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2008, 08:26:14 PM »
One moment, it is from 2003, I have to edit it so that it can be posted on forum :)

Offline DirrrtyDirk

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Re: Maisters graphic experimentation test ground
« Reply #7 on: November 26, 2008, 11:27:01 PM »
Just a general thing:

IMHO people should not always aim to be included into the main pak. There's a reason for addons to exist. And an addon is in no way inferior to anything that's part of the "official" set. So just create your stuff and share it with people. It's not important if it's an addon or in the pakset.

So always build things as an addon first. If it fits into a niche and is liked by people, it can (and probably will) be added in the main set some day - but that should not be your initial goal to begin with. And certainly nobody should be disappointed if things do not become part of the main pak!

Offline vilvoh

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Re: Maisters graphic experimentation test ground
« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2008, 11:55:13 PM »
Although OSA button is checked, It seems Blender does not applied it to the rendered image. OSA is the famous anti-aliasing (AA) counter measure that basically applies blur to edges while rendering.

Some tips that may help you to increase the rendering quality:

Use Ambient Occlusion. Forget OSA if you can, imho it only works with big images. Go to Shading (F5) >> World buttons >> Amb Occ tab. Press Ambien Occlussion button and try out several configs (more info here and a short tutorial)

Use Raytracing shadows. To activate it, select a lamp, press F5 (Shading) and in Shadow and Spot menu, check the Ray Shadow button. Do some test to get the best result (Soft size, Method of generating the shadow samples, amount of samples, etc..)  Basically try out all options from that menu.

In Scene (F10) >> Render menu, you can see a set of small buttons called Fields, Odd, X, Gauss, etc... The select menu that contains the Gauss word represents the sampling filter that blender render engine will use to render border, and allows you to reduce the AA. Gauss is the most usual, but you can try others. You can change the filter value in the box next to the select menu (more info here)

Finally, I think that "strange" effect with the lowest level ground and rooftop would be due to the way you have applied the texture. If you've used an image as texture, check that in Shading (F5) >> material buttons >> Map Input tab and select Cube option. It will apply the texture following a cubic shape.

When you apply a detailed texture to an object, sometimes is better to repeat the image instead of extend it along every face of the object. Go to Texture buttons (F6) >> Map Image menu. There you have a row of buttons that consist of  Extend, Clip, ..., Repeat,.... If you select Extend, it will apply the texture along every face of the object, if the face is smaller than the image, Blender will strech it. So the texture will be compressed to fit on the face, and you will get that strange and well known granny effect. A way to solve this is to use Repeat.

I know it may seems too much info for the first time, but I'm sure you can get the basics to improve your renders. Next step would be to use Yafray render engine... :)

IMHO people should not always aim to be included into the main pak

I think he was refering to make it fit on 128pak graphic style, but perhaps I'm wrong...

« Last Edit: November 27, 2008, 07:38:09 AM by vilvoh »

Offline DirrrtyDirk

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Re: Maisters graphic experimentation test ground
« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2008, 01:01:58 AM »
Just an general reminder - not necessarily directly aimed at anyone here.

Offline VS

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Re: Maisters graphic experimentation test ground
« Reply #10 on: November 27, 2008, 10:47:16 AM »
Dirk - Yep, true. When writing my first response, I thought that there are many buildings in high levels that would have to go and should be replaced - fortunately that is not the case. But judgement is still the same, this is the kind of quality that gets thing into main set.

Offline maister

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Re: Maisters graphic experimentation test ground
« Reply #11 on: November 27, 2008, 02:21:46 PM »
@vilvoh
Very nice from you, that you take the time to help us (me) with your profounded knowledge!
It is not a matter of course.

Ambient Occlusion not used; because as soon I activate it, the buidling looks like a building after the worldwar 3?
Raytracing shadows used; looks realistic
Render menu used; but i need some time to see the niceties
Cube option/Repeat used; the ant on the wall is now only 5mm tall instead 10meter wide  ;D

And you right... if i use Yafray i see only black...  :-\
I am not happy with some details, but as soon i find more time, i try again to make it better. I see, to using Blender in the right way is like a learn a trade.

@DirrrtyDirk
Everytime we should be sporting about it.  ;)
I make buildings with the target to make much as possible different peoples happy. (included my self)

@VS
I change the scale (15-16px) and improvise with a penthouse on the top.

(For sharpener picture; please click on the picture to expand it)
« Last Edit: November 27, 2008, 02:24:59 PM by maister »

Offline vilvoh

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Re: Maisters graphic experimentation test ground
« Reply #12 on: November 27, 2008, 03:42:19 PM »
IMHO, much better. The rooftop texture looks better this time. It only needs more light on the right side. BTW, what's that bright inclinated column at ground level on the left side? Is it an air intake or just a steel column?

Ambient Occlusion not used; because as soon I activate it, the buidling looks like a building after the worldwar 3?
Sometimes happens but the only way I know to solve it is remaking the scene from scratch... :-\....I'll investigate more.

And you right... if i use Yafray i see only black...  :-\
Have you installed it?... I mean, it's not included in Blender by default, as far as I know.... ::)

I am not happy with some details, but as soon i find more time, i try again to make it better. I see, to using Blender in the right way is like a learn a trade.
That's the way to face it, with learning spirit...

Re: Maisters graphic experimentation test ground
« Reply #13 on: November 27, 2008, 08:51:20 PM »
It looks great!! The added contrast really brings out detail!

Offline maister

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Re: Maisters graphic experimentation test ground
« Reply #14 on: November 28, 2008, 10:41:10 AM »
Now with more light on the right side and additional a winter-graphic.
Next step is to learn the night colors and make a PAK file.

@vilvoh   ;D  ::) Yafray is not installed.
What you think about the floor size? Sometimes i have the feeling the buidling is ok in relation to the peoples and to Raven`s Building, but not to some other buildings.
And yes it`s just a steel column for stabilization. The architect was a little bit crazy and think this looks nice:)

@almighty snark   Thanks!

(For sharpener picture; please click on the picture to expand it)

Offline vilvoh

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Re: Maisters graphic experimentation test ground
« Reply #15 on: November 28, 2008, 10:53:45 AM »
wOw!! The winter version looks great!! Keep up the good work.... :)

What you think about the floor size? Sometimes i have the feeling the buidling is ok in relation to the peoples and to Raven`s Building, but not to some other buildings.

Well, pak128 is not the best example of coherence, in all aspects. Different styles, sizes, scales, colors, etc... so I wouldn't worry too much if seems strange compared with others. Raven buildings are perhaps the ones that fit better in what we may call 128pak standard

BTW, taking advantage you're using Blender, are you going to make four rotations (views)?
« Last Edit: November 28, 2008, 10:56:46 AM by vilvoh »

Offline maister

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Re: Maisters graphic experimentation test ground
« Reply #16 on: December 01, 2008, 01:32:39 PM »
vilvoh, I extended the objekt with three other views. My question is now; Should the shadow and lighting rotate with the building, or should this be fixed? I mean, if the lighting fixed is the rear buildingfront view a little bit dark. Is there a rule? Thanks!

Offline vilvoh

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Re: Maisters graphic experimentation test ground
« Reply #17 on: December 01, 2008, 01:50:29 PM »
Well, you have to options. Keep lights and camera in the same position and rotate the building, or keep te building and rotate the rest. In any case, if you move all objects, the ilumination effect will be the same for all views, which has no sense.

In the second case, you may need a reference point for the rotation. If not the camera will be disaligned from the tile center, and some borders may appear cutted. To solve this you must use the 3D cursor as reference. Place it in the middle of the tile ground. Then go to the Pivot Point menu and select 3D Cursor (see image)




Now on, when you try to rotate something, the center will be the 3D cursor.

BTW, I forgot to mention that it's usual to use two lights. One for the front face and other for the right side face. I guess you're using such a lighting scheme..

Offline maister

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Re: Maisters graphic experimentation test ground
« Reply #18 on: December 01, 2008, 09:44:15 PM »
Version 0.8, I hope the building get soon in the finaly version...
Thank you for your suggestions!


« Last Edit: December 01, 2008, 09:54:51 PM by maister »

Offline vilvoh

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Re: Maisters graphic experimentation test ground
« Reply #19 on: December 01, 2008, 10:27:48 PM »
Good work. It's an industrial style with greys and blacks. I would try to make window glasses more reflective, using Ray Mirror.

Other thing, be carefull with the penthouse top windows, specially in the first two rotations, because Simutrans can't handle transparencies, so they will appear as blank/light grey gaps. I suggest you to remove those parts with a painting program to avoid this strange effect (see the attached image)

BTW, don't forget to remove unwanted pixels with special night colors.

Offline VS

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Re: Maisters graphic experimentation test ground
« Reply #20 on: December 01, 2008, 11:21:31 PM »
Hmmm... 16pixel/floor is still too much :( But it looks great!

Offline Kgm13

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Re: Maisters graphic experimentation test ground
« Reply #21 on: December 10, 2008, 05:52:17 AM »
it looks amazing mate, well done