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Extension request: Display max overloaded weight in depot

Started by sdog, February 20, 2012, 12:05:00 AM

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sdog

It would be extremely helpful to players if the total weight of the heaviest vehicle including full load plus overcapacity would be displayed in the depot when building a consist.


Even as experienced player i was recently confused by this and searched for 20 minutes for an error in a track layout. Indeed it was the train i was using, while the head was light, the middle wagon was too heavy. This is only visible when actually looking for it.


Especially for light vehicles it is pure guess work* to find out if it will go on a way when fully loaded.


*or looking up in the dat the exact weight, and add the calculated weight of the cargo.




ps.: this would of course be pointless, if Route Availability was introduced, is that still planed or were you waiting for standard, where such a desire seems to be there too, to implement something?

jamespetts

I had indeed been waiting for the Standard feature changes in respect of this before doing anything in this regard, as it would avoid duplication of work.  I do wonder whether axle weight is appropriate for bridges, however.
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sdog

axle weight it is as wrong or appropriate for bridges as total weight is for regular track. both and the speed are relevant. But all are related, if one builds a bridge that can sustain high axle weights in general we have all reason to assume it will also be stable enough to sustain the total load. Those values are all connected within reasonable values.

But since you ask, i thought Prissi et al were more interested in a system similar to the UK Route Availability, which would combine all those factors within one simple to use system. I should dig for the old thread, perhaps do some necromancy there :-P

jamespetts

Variables for axle weights were been introduced into the latest nightlies some weeks ago, although they are not used yet.
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ӔO

I'll eat my hat. I think I was wrong (and right in certain aspects) with bridge weight limits.

all bridges are made to some specification and as long as the weight doesn't exceed that limit, it won't collapse. All these steel and masonry bridges should have no problem at all handling multiple trucks or trains on the deck right at the maximum weight limit.

Trucks, in fact, do use axle load ratings as well. It's just more common for the maximum weight to be specified instead of axle load.
All paved roads will handle the maximum without any problem, but the weaker construction methods require more frequent maintenance if heavy trucks and buses are constantly using them. If you compare road vehicles to trains, trucks are standardized and will always be built to fit within maximums, so the trailers will always have more axles if the truck is rated for more weight, where as trains can fall within multiple specifications.

So, at least for road, there really should be no problem using either weight system. The max weight should just be the same for all roads, but the difference in speed and costs should be enough differentiation. A few exceptions might be the early bridges, which were never designed for more than horse and carriages in the first place.
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jamespetts

AEO,

can you elaborate? I am slightly unclear - what bits were you wrong about with respect to bridge weight limits? From what I previously understand, ways, per se are better with axle limits, but bridges are better with total weight limits - is that not correct?

From what I understand, the maximum permissible weight of vehicles on roads in the UK has risen a number of times, and there are a great many smaller bridges that have low weight limits (7-8t, sometimes, about 15t other times).
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ӔO

I am saying both can be used.
Bridges have a absolute limit, however they are usually engineered so that the absolute limit matches the total axle load that can be present on the bridge at any one time.

For example, it's the same if the bridge is rated for up to 100t over its span if only 10 axles of 10t each will ever fit on the bridge.
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dannyman

Yeah, a bridge has a TOTAL weight limit.  For example, there may be situations where the weight limit might be 30t, and if your bus maxes out at 20t, you'll only let one bus on the bridge at a time.  This would be a huge PITA to figure for trains: a longer span might hold the weight of the engine, but not the engine and all the carriages on the span.

Too much realism to worry about for EX, imho. :)

-danny

jamespetts

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dannyman

Quote from: jamespetts on February 20, 2012, 11:48:18 PM
Any views on what the right balance would be?

I am satisfied with the way it is now ...

... if we were to build a bridge "load limit" then how would we computer that and then convey it in the interface?  Ideally, you'd drag a bridge tool between two endpoints and you'd get a menu of options, preferably a menu you could sort / filter ... a set of competing "quotes" to build the bridge, differentiated by price, maintenance cost, maximum speed and bridge load limit.

Then your trains would tell you their maximum total convoy weight ...

... then you'd have a six tile train that would run just fine over a three tile bridge that could only sustain a lesser amount of weight because HEY, the train only places a portion of its max load on the bridge.

Which portion?  Well, your train would have a load matrix, because much of the load is in the engine at the head end.  So, you'd have to compare the train's 3-tile max load to the bridge's max load ...

... and then, I suspect, there's some computation as to the speed at which you can move over a bridge at a given weight, so a heavier train may have to slow down more ... this is way beyond my knowledge ...

.........................

So, when you enter the route or destination update dialog, put an overlay on the connecting, routable ways, color coded, like the block view:
- green -- no worries
- yellow -- way usable by convoy, but sub-optimal (way max speed < convoy max speed)
- orange -- way not usable at max convoy load
- red -- way not usable at any load

... ff there ARE any restrictions along the most optimal route the dialog would advise you to take a look ...

I was thinking you should be able to hover over a tile or bridge to explain the restriction.  For basic tiles this should be self-explanatory, but a bridge with max weight might bear some explanation.  But something like this overlay to help the player visualize WTF is going on allows the game designer to get away with adding more realistic complexities ... heck, it would be neat to have a game explain to me why I can't run my train over a bridge at a certain speed because of physics and construction principles ... maybe the game could then offer to upgrade/replace the bridge to one more suitable to the task ...