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Author Topic: Very different networks for good and freight  (Read 5899 times)

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Offline prissi

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Very different networks for good and freight
« on: April 20, 2012, 07:13:49 PM »
During the development of the network map view, I used several large games from the gift, Timothys server and what I had accumulated over the years. Most showed similar patterns:

- Freight: mainly point to point thus network map is chaotic
- Pax: A huge circular line or a big mainline from which everything branches

I am quite curious on how general this really is.

Offline VS

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Re: Very different networks for good and freight
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2012, 07:28:57 PM »
I have not played in a while (ca 3 years?), but my observations mostly agree. Sometimes, a few "industrial centers" form with some cross-connection, so that a line (way) can connect these. But that is usually in the stage where freight is not important at all, more as an additional challenge.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2012, 08:01:45 PM by VS »

Offline Combuijs

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Re: Very different networks for good and freight
« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2012, 07:54:41 PM »
What I usually do with both freight and passengers is organise it in local, regional and national hubs.

Passengers/mail:
Local loops connecting about 9 stations, one of those connects to a regional hub (point to point). Regional hubs are connected to a national hub (point to point), sometimes there are cross-regional connections as well (still point to point). National hubs are connected to each other, always point to point, sometimes only neighbouring hubs are connected sometimes also far distant hubs are connected (planes).

Freight:
All factories in a region connect to a regional hub, either with trucks, ships or trains. Always point to point. Regional hubs are connected to a national hub with trains (always point to point), National hubs are connected to neighbouring national hubs (always point to point).

So I rarely use circle lines, only for local passengers/mail lines. I always find it easier to manage capacities in point to point lines.


Offline Randy007

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Re: Very different networks for good and freight
« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2012, 08:15:33 PM »
If I understand you right, i would say, it depends on how much industry you have on the map. In pak german you have a lot of cargo-pallets, so you "can" build circulars

Offline AP

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Re: Very different networks for good and freight
« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2012, 08:51:37 PM »
I'd suggest it depends on the shape of the map. I've played quite a number of very very long narrow maps, which present their own challenges since traffic capacity in the centre can get very significant. With a square map circular routes mitigate this somewhat

Offline isidoro

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Re: Very different networks for good and freight
« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2012, 09:27:51 PM »
In my last game, goods and passengers and mail networks are very different.

  • Goods: 100% of lines are point to point, with 100% load at first stop.  It's a question of efficiency.  Low profit for goods and different types are the cause.
  • Passengers: vehicles always running and shared stations.  Lines with 5, 6 stations back and forth, never circular, for cheap buses and point to point with 50%-60% load at first stop to account for imbalance for more expensive trains and planes.
  • Mail: local mail same as passengers for each city with waiting times.  Inter-city with planes or as additional wagons in cargo trains.
I guess it is more dependent on the pak configuration and prices.


Offline cheesehead

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Re: Very different networks for good and freight
« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2012, 10:22:39 PM »
Most showed similar patterns:

- Freight: mainly point to point thus network map is chaotic
- Pax: A huge circular line or a big mainline from which everything branches

I am quite curious on how general this really is.

It should be quite general, due to the different characteristic of mail/pax from other cargo.
Passenger networks have more stations, and traffic between all stations.

For example, an intercity passenger network with 5 stations has 10 possible lines, with four lines serving each station. Is it wise to create a four-platform station in each city? No - it's unnecessarily complicated and expensive to manage and maintain. And since passengers are so profitable, a ring line will usually turn a profit without a lot of manual oversight. 

Meanwhile, other cargo types have much smaller networks, fewer opportunities for backhaul, and (usually) lower operating margins on the one-way trip.

For example, a mine with three customers requires some combination of three lines. One line may get a convenient backhaul, but in order to be profitable the speed and train length must be maximized and the distance minimized. That means point-to-point routes and dedicated platforms. A bulk-ring is likely to run empty for much of it's run, and lose staggering amounts of money, unless closely managed by the player. Point-to-point is requires less oversight.

In both cases, the limiting factor is the amount of management time the player is willing to invest. Managing loads in the current network means less upgrading and less expansion. For me, that's less fun.

Offline Ters

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Re: Very different networks for good and freight
« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2012, 10:40:32 PM »
I try to use the same tracks for passengers and freight, since that is how it is done in real life. But it's difficult to prevent slow freight trains from clogging up the fast passenger lines, so in really busy areas, I've put up some dedicated freight tracks. These may run in parallel, or in a loop around the troublesome areas.

Passenger trains that serve a single city run in loops, connecting to intercity trains at, in most cases, one station. The layout of the intercity network depends on the map, and the large bodies of water in particular. My current game features three loops and three branches. The game before that had more of an H shape. I prefer to have my intercity trains run between just two station. Otherwise, I run into difficulties keeping them full enough on all legs or keeping the middle one(s) from overflowing.

Freight trains are usually point to point, but for boxed goods, I usually interconnect a bit. Different lines bringing goods to different consumers within a city usually terminate at one station per city, that can also serve as a mini hub, where trucks take over.

Offline HDomos

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Re: Very different networks for good and freight
« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2012, 11:09:13 PM »
- Freight: mainly point to point thus network map is chaotic
- Pax: A huge circular line or a big mainline from which everything branches

I rarely use circular passenger lines, in big towns (that i love to play with) there are various metro lines (never circular as i can control the capacity more with simple two track metros). I often build the metro tunnels between the sides of the city, and i make two lines on them: one going the whole way, and one just going in the more dense downtown.  There are hubs in the center of the town where there are two or more metro lines serving the same station. I use trams and buses to provide passengers for metro, but there are not circular either. At the end of the main metro lines there are the intercity stations. The intercity trains are city to city for me, so i can control the capacity too. I sometimes use planes to connect far away cities, but these are point-to-point too. So my intercity network is like everything is connected to everything (mostly due to capacity reasons).

For freight i use point-to-point lines with 100%load at first station. If i use trains i use the tracks of passenger lines when they are available and not too crowded, but they usually are; so i mostly use another infrastructure for freight. I often transport freight with trucks or ships too...

Offline kierongreen

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Re: Very different networks for good and freight
« Reply #9 on: April 21, 2012, 06:04:08 AM »
Freight is usually point to point. An exception is when there are a cluster of producers some distance from a cluster of consumers. In that case I have a long distance route fed at either end by shorter distance routes (none of them circular).

Passenger -- intercity tends to bee a web, with urban (either rail or metro) services connecting at key stations. Local buses or trams operate from most stations, urban and intercity, to cover all areas of towns. Urban (sometimes) and local (usually) transport involve some kind of loop structure - but it is rarely just a simple loop. Intercities are never looped.

Offline dom700

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Re: Very different networks for good and freight
« Reply #10 on: April 21, 2012, 06:55:09 AM »
As you have seen from my savegame in the bugreport, my passenger and freight networks work EXACTLY the same, even the nodes are shared. The only difference is the traffic inside a city, since there are almost never circular freight lines

Offline grampybear

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Re: Very different networks for good and freight
« Reply #11 on: May 17, 2012, 02:42:53 PM »
Good morning all. I play pak128 std but I have addons from all different paks, I have also modified industries to accommodate inner city business, small local groceries,open air farmers market, pizza and sandwich shops,restaurants, office supply stores,etc. My cities are from 2000 to 15,000 so the quantities required by each business is small. All goods are delivered by truck as very few small towns have rail service. I play in free mode and my goal is build a display that looks good and works. I have tried point to point service and also a warehouse distribution where everything in or out of city pass thru. Both have there problems.  I would like to hear from anyone else playing in a similar manner.  Thank you for your time.