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Offline jk271

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New building type: park
« on: May 21, 2012, 09:20:09 PM »
Current cities have parks / gardens as places, where citizen can spend their leasure time. Parks consists of trees casting shadow, paths for walking and jogging and  bend where people used to sit down for a while.

There are some buildings that look like a park now. But they are usually marked as residential ("res") or commercial ("com").
Marking park as type="res" causes population increase if park is built.
Marking park as type="com" decreases number of unemployed citizen so less "normal" commercial building will be built.
Both types (ind and res) causes, that park receives mail.

Marking park as monument or curiosity denies player to remove it without usage of "public service" player.

So I suggest an addition of the new building type "park" as a new city building type (among res, ind and com). If city grows, new parks will be created in the same way as residential, commercial and industrial buildings are created now.

Offline Fabio

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Re: New building type: park
« Reply #1 on: May 21, 2012, 09:33:16 PM »
Not only I totally support this request, but I must confess I was about to suggest it myself several times...

Offline IgorEliezer br

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Re: New building type: park
« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2012, 01:43:53 AM »
I agree. Once I had talked about it before:

And "A little fountain" (RES_00_06) is not a "Residential house".

The thing is, according to the DAT parameters, citybuildings can be one of these types:

res    residental building
com    commercial building
ind    industrial building
tow    city hall
mon    monument
cur    curiousity buildings
hq    company's headquarter

So, what type, among these, would a park be? Technically, none of these.

Parks, churches, sport fields, leisure clubs, balloon launch fields and other places of public interest are considered "institutional use". Well, at least that was what my Urban Planning teacher told me in Architecture School.

To solve this issue properly, Simutrans should have institutional citybuilding type (perhaps, INS) to be used in DAT files, since parks are not residential nor commercial use buildings.

Offline Ters

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Re: New building type: park
« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2012, 05:00:35 AM »
I believe parks actually do have people working in them, and sometimes, maybe more often than we like to admit, even living in them. They don't receive much mail, though.

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Re: New building type: park
« Reply #4 on: May 22, 2012, 06:23:42 AM »
In Pak64.Experimental I simply made all these buildings curiosities. This allows for control over when they appear (in terms of what size the city has to be in order to get one). The only disadvantage of this is that they're "not really attractions". But that seems like a pretty small downside.

Offline mEGa

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Re: New building type: park
« Reply #5 on: May 22, 2012, 07:14:06 AM »
I'm agree too because I think park are near reality and also want create them for pak128. So as  jk271 said, I didn't want put them in "cur" objects list.

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: New building type: park
« Reply #6 on: May 22, 2012, 08:52:25 AM »
In Pak128.Britain, parks are "cur" type buildings, which seems to work.

Offline jk271

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Re: New building type: park
« Reply #7 on: May 22, 2012, 07:25:41 PM »
Thank you IgorEliezer for posting link to another thread. I had not considered title "wrong description" to have something common to parks when I was creating this thread.
Institutional buildings should be considered too. There is a lack of building like schools, hospitals etc. in the game.
Both "park" and "ins" should be removable in the same way as residential, commercial and industrial building are. Having parameter built_time will be usefull.
Ther is a problem with "cur" buildings as they can be removed by public player only.

Offline Isaac.Eiland-Hall us

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Re: New building type: park
« Reply #8 on: May 23, 2012, 08:48:50 PM »
If this is accepted, could it be possible to make high-end buildings build parks/plazas next to themselves somehow?

Offline Fabio

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Re: New building type: park
« Reply #9 on: May 23, 2012, 09:18:20 PM »
Maybe overhauling and tweaking city rules...

Offline kierongreen

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Re: New building type: park
« Reply #10 on: May 23, 2012, 09:23:44 PM »
Quote
Maybe overhauling and tweaking city rules...
This is something I'm thinking of maybe looking at after I've finished current project.

Offline Fabio

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Re: New building type: park
« Reply #11 on: May 23, 2012, 09:26:59 PM »
You're the man, Kieron! You came back to coding digging much unfinished business... Going on like this I could expect you trying a go also with double tracks ;)
« Last Edit: May 23, 2012, 09:35:22 PM by Fabio »

Offline ӔO

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Re: New building type: park
« Reply #12 on: May 23, 2012, 09:32:38 PM »
I have a question. If one were to increase the number of building types, what other types would be desirable?
Of course, I'm not sure how hard it is to add more than one, but it never hurts to plan for the future.

Offline Fabio

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Re: New building type: park
« Reply #13 on: May 23, 2012, 09:47:35 PM »
I would split res and com in downtown and suburbs.
I would also change that ind which end up in the middle of a city get upgraded to com and res, and new ind are built on outskirts.

Other types could be institutional, and maybe car parks.

Mixed com + res would be nice too, thinking of those buildings with shops on ground floor and flats upstairs (these would add to both households and jobs).

Another nice type would be square, surrounded by roads like the monuments.

It would also be nice to have sparse houses/cottages in the countryside.

And I always dreamt of beach resorts, built without foundations so that they are level with the body of water.

Well, this is a long dream list...

Offline jk271

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Re: New building type: park
« Reply #14 on: May 23, 2012, 09:55:18 PM »
Following types come currently on my mind:
"park" (parks/gardens ans  squares/plazas)
"institutional" (  schools, hospitals, theatres, fire stations, police stations)
I consider to include parking for cars as another type but it could be to detailed. Take this list as a suggestion for discussion. I expect others to add their suggestions.

I have an another suggestion -  new parameter "number_of_inhabitants" or "inhabitants" to be added to buildings. It would describe maximal number of people, who can live there.
Edit:It would be used with number of inhabitant of city to make a decision to build new building. Secondly today there is now way how to find ou population decrease if you are going to remove some buildings.
Edit 2:
« Last Edit: May 25, 2012, 07:06:31 PM by jk271 »

Offline isidoro

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Re: New building type: park
« Reply #15 on: May 23, 2012, 09:57:48 PM »
Yes.  Parking lots would be very nice to have.  In Pak128-Britain, they are coded as ind.  I like to manually build those around Football Stadiums, but unfortunately they get replaced by other industrial buildings...


Small (related) OT:

Some days ago, when looking at the way vehicles are built in the depot (sometimes you can only add certain types of vehicles to a convoy and not others), I wondered if that is not a very similar problem as city rules, but in two dimensions instead of one dimension.

I'll explain: now buildings (res com ind) are 1x1 tile.  Why not make them nxm tiles with constraints just like vehicles have?  And if we add chances, we have a very flexible mean of doing things like this, for instance:
  • A row of identical semi-detached houses
  • A variable shape/variable size park
  • Clusters of skyscrapers
  • Parking lots,...
  • Big squares...
The only (small  :P ) problem I can see is that the logic to place new buildings would be much more complicated, a kind of AI.  But, you know, everything has a price...

Offline Fabio

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Re: New building type: park
« Reply #16 on: May 23, 2012, 11:05:26 PM »
I just love Isidoro's idea...

Offline colonyan

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Re: New building type: park
« Reply #17 on: May 24, 2012, 12:30:13 AM »
This is certainly interesting subject matter for me too.

I see clearly that there are certain portion of ST community member have interest in behavior of city growth and its composition/structure.

I think this kind of matter has things to do with many different aspects.
It would be better to share the grand and long term vision and discuss what would be the best way to sort things out.
(Well of course if main coders have any interest or ending up by promoting enough interest for them...)

I will attempt to come up with some idea.
Its interesting how I thought I was thinking about these things usually but when it comes the time to present it,
it is very difficult. Need to think more critically I think haha.

 


Offline Isaac.Eiland-Hall us

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Re: New building type: park
« Reply #18 on: May 24, 2012, 03:39:12 AM »
So... maybe there can be some sort of weighting depending on how central a tile is in the city limits? :-)

Offline mEGa

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Re: New building type: park
« Reply #19 on: May 24, 2012, 06:03:17 AM »
As Fabio said, I like too this idea.

May be parks and any attractions could get some satisfaction for citizens... So they want to take transportation more..And the city will grow up (As a little philosophy of old Simcity...).
So in fact the player will have to build more transportation network.

Note I have a lot of park projects in my sketches repository ;-)

Offline greenling

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Re: New building type: park
« Reply #20 on: May 24, 2012, 03:24:04 PM »
That it a Nice Idea!


Offline Roads

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Re: New building type: park
« Reply #21 on: May 25, 2012, 09:34:01 AM »
Just a suggestion as it will undoubtedly be a long time before I can be of any help but would y'all think about taking the terrain type in consideration?  It bothers me to see deciduous trees in the desert...

Offline Combuijs

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Re: New building type: park
« Reply #22 on: May 25, 2012, 09:42:01 AM »
Just a suggestion as it will undoubtedly be a long time before I can be of any help but would y'all think about taking the terrain type in consideration?  It bothers me to see deciduous trees in the desert...

For all buildings a set of climates can (and will) already be specified, so when the pak-maker does his job right, you won't have any nightmares...

Offline Roads

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Re: New building type: park
« Reply #23 on: May 25, 2012, 04:05:10 PM »
*laughing*  Combuijs, I dunno if a big old oak tree standing near a cactus is enough to give me nightmares but it is enough to make me destroy the park.  Thanks for the info about the climates.

Offline jk271

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Re: New building type: park
« Reply #24 on: May 25, 2012, 07:36:41 PM »
I came up to another new type - artificial water area.
A first example of artificial water area: I am not talking about small lakes built in city park but I am talking about a little bigger ones. Such a "artificial lakes" served as a source of water in case of fire and were built usually in the center of village.
Image will be probably more descriptive: http://pruvodce.pod.cvut.cz/pages/kde_co/prehled/p_prehled4.jpg It is NOT a swimming pool.
Second example of artificial water area in the city is a pond where swans and ducks live. Water is deep there. People are walkink or jogging around or sitting on benches and watching birds on the water-table.

Offline colonyan

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Re: New building type: park
« Reply #25 on: May 26, 2012, 12:26:10 AM »
Ok, I got my thoughts more sorted out.

Possible, Park and Public building type would be better appear on larger cities and town only, considering the size of the tile.
Ideally, good size such as 1X2 or 2X2and up could placed near city central. To do so, cities should have functional central zone area where
larger commercial buildings, noticeable tourist attractions, monuments and main park will be placed. All near city hall.

If we go further we could categorize in
Central Park : near city hall, in the center of the city [large passenger rate]
Residential zone community park : smaller but more numerous [almost no passenger rate]
Green Belt : Authority could designate non development area
Natural preserve(national/provincial park): Current tourist attraction can take care of this.

Offline ӔO

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Re: New building type: park
« Reply #26 on: May 26, 2012, 12:42:57 AM »
Wouldn't anything larger than 1x1 being placed inside built up areas of the city require a rewrite of the city object placement code?


Greenbelt is interesting. It might also contain archeological dig sites and could probably just reuse the cluster attraction code. If not, it would be simpler just to consider them as an unattractive attraction.

Offline colonyan

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Re: New building type: park
« Reply #27 on: May 26, 2012, 02:52:10 AM »
Wouldn't anything larger than 1x1 being placed inside built up areas of the city require a rewrite of the city object placement code?

Exactly. I had few idea
A. Historical authority/royalty residing city. Has already a castle or palace. Later transform into something else. Prone to attract more population growth and final consumer.
or more
B. Make citybuilding get replaced anyway. Make count the amount of population, got it displaced somewhere else in town.

Offline Ters

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Re: New building type: park
« Reply #28 on: May 26, 2012, 07:31:13 AM »
Wouldn't anything larger than 1x1 being placed inside built up areas of the city require a rewrite of the city object placement code?

When cities grow, their city halls can increase in size. From whay I have observed, the city halls try to expand at their present location, but if something other than normal city buildings are in the way, they relocate some place else. Should be possible to reuse some code there.

Offline mEGa

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Re: New building type: park
« Reply #29 on: May 26, 2012, 08:23:36 AM »
Hi,

I understand and I have already had the same thought.
In my one of game I realized a artificial dam with basic element of Simutrans :
- water river tool to artificial lake
- elevated piece for retaining wall
- solar pond kraftwerk for power generation plant.

so result is not so bad :


But it will better if we design a specific power plant.

Offline Roads

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Re: New building type: park
« Reply #30 on: May 26, 2012, 09:06:14 AM »
mEGa, this is a terrific screenshot!  I absolutely love the idea of placing a dam on rivers and producing hydro power.  As much as I hate building power lines I might even do that for a dam. :)

Offline prissi

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Re: New building type: park
« Reply #31 on: May 26, 2012, 08:07:32 PM »
Buildings larger than 1x1 would reuire cityrules searchnig for spaces, i.e. a 1x2 set of cityrules. This is in priciple possible. However, the chances that a 1x2 spot is empty in the middle of a city is almost zero. To have such 1x2/2x1 building feasible, there must be a 1x2 building from the start which is then also renovated appropriately.

One could reuse a lot of code, but this is the only way I would see within the current city expansion code.

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: New building type: park
« Reply #32 on: May 26, 2012, 08:46:07 PM »
I don't know whether a topic split or rename might be a idea here, as we seem to have moved on from simply the question of parks. In any event, if city rules are to be reconstituted, two things might be considerred: firstly, a system wherey develpoment is more likely to occur within the catchment area of good transport links (the better the transport links,the more the development), and secondly, a means of preventing cities from growing out on diagonal roads, then superimposing their grid structures onto those roads, causing a great deal of messy redundancy in the road system (I am not sure whether, and if so how this can be achieved by tweaking existing city rules parameters)

Offline prissi

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Re: New building type: park
« Reply #33 on: May 26, 2012, 09:14:44 PM »
IN pak64 standard the cityrules have been tweaked in such a way to prevent outgrowing on diagonal roads mostly (only one of 9 rules with low probabilty at all).

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: New building type: park
« Reply #34 on: May 26, 2012, 09:20:47 PM »
Hmm - but isn't that a somewhat unsatisfactory solution? It's seriously odd for a city to   grow on lateral ut not diagonal roads. Far preferable would be a system of allowing a city to grow on diagonal roads without causing trouble, would it not?