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Offline sojo

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competition for programmers
« on: December 25, 2008, 09:47:10 AM »
Hi at all. I start a programming competition.

First what you can win. If you expand simutrans for one of the hereafter written things than will I write your name in the description of the new diamond village ( attraction or factory ) ( like sillicon village in reality ).

When you've won?

If the extension is in the nightlies.

The wishes/programm-extensions

  • weather in simutrans (snow or rain or both)
  • build new factories (f.e. factory 1 is a old one until 1900, if we have year 1900 than it should use a new pak for a new factory 2 and so on)
  • build new attraction (f.e. attracion 1 is a old one until 1900, if we have year 1900 than it should use a new pak for a new attraction 2 and so on)
  • help-window for every pakset (with link in the main help-window) (to describe from the pakset, mayby pakset/text/)
  • sound at the cursor for buildings (factories, attractions, ...)
  • follow me for more than one vehicle ( follow one car is boring, so should the followed vehilce switch to an other when it is closer than 5 tiles

This is just for the fun and should not influence the program.

If something like this against the principles of Simutrans fails, then it should be ignored.  ;)
« Last Edit: December 26, 2008, 12:26:11 PM by sojo »

Offline prissi

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Re: competition for programmers
« Reply #1 on: December 25, 2008, 08:41:12 PM »
Weather framework is 30% done and not too difficult.

Sound at cursor is extremely simple but lacking sounds. (Small good sounds.)

Offline VS

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Re: competition for programmers
« Reply #2 on: December 25, 2008, 10:25:31 PM »
Re sounds - We could probably use content from freesound after some editing.

/offtopic

Offline vilvoh

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Re: competition for programmers
« Reply #3 on: December 26, 2008, 12:31:12 AM »
[..] follow me for more than one vehicle ( follow one car is boring, so should the followed vehilce switch to an other when it is closer than 5 tiles [...]

I like this one, but I had a better way to implement it. If any of you have played The Settlers, maybe remember that can switch a follow-me camera in any track, so you can check what's going on there. Well, that camera appear in a separate window, and if you have more than one camera that window was divided in as many visors as cameras you have switched. we can do the same, can't we? It doesn't seem difficult. We just translate the same mechanism we have now implemented (small preview in the vehicle info window) to a separate special window.

Offline sojo

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Re: competition for programmers
« Reply #4 on: December 26, 2008, 12:31:29 PM »
Weather framework is 30% done and not too difficult.

Fine. Is it your work? Or, who is the programmer? (For the praise in diamond village! ;) )

Sound at cursor is extremely simple but lacking sounds. (Small good sounds.)

We have some sounds here http://jorgo.isaakides.de/simutrans/ . Extra recorded for Simutrans.

Offline VS

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Re: competition for programmers
« Reply #5 on: December 26, 2008, 05:03:52 PM »
The sounds are nice, but... where would you use them? Most are imho useless, as they are scenery and quite long. Select one or two in each category and that's it. I am such a negativistic bastard, am I not? To stay also a bit positive - the beeping in supermarket is great, and bus departure is usable too. But I know how much $^(@$%#( work must go into something like this before using it. Big parts of the bagger sounds are useless because of traffic background. You hear what you want, but microphone is not so clever :-\

Also bear in mind that vehicle leaving sounds must be short or you will go crazy with big stations. Beep toot vroom beep honk vrooovrooovrOOOOOOOM! I always switch sound off.

Also, size... Maybe some better compression scheme should be supported to allow more sounds shipped with game.

(And very very offtopic - what is pissoir sound good for? :D )



I am slowly working on weather "backend" - it is not for showing rain on screen, but rather determining how much rain is in some place...
« Last Edit: December 26, 2008, 05:08:26 PM by VS »

Offline sojo

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Re: competition for programmers
« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2009, 08:11:04 AM »
Incidentally, I am planning to work on the code to implement The Hood's idea to have a retirement date for industries - I mention this now in case it makes a difference to what/how many industries need to be produced (the .dat files can easily be changed, but the graphics take a long time, I imagine). If industries have a retirement date as well as an introduction date, then newer industries will have to replace older ones (i.e., larger, more modern looking factories will replace smaller, older looking ones, but the more modern ones will be substantially fewer in number, although have a higher output; industrial decline would then be able to be simulated, too). Any comments on how this suggestion would best be implemented would be welcome.

Should it be so?
Quote
build new factories (f.e. factory 1 is a old one until 1900, if we have year 1900 than it should use a new pak for a new factory 2 and so on)


Offline Magic_Gorter

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Re: competition for programmers
« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2009, 06:56:53 PM »
one problem is when the new factory has a different size compared to the old one (e.g. 1 tile old -> 2 or more tiles new). So this thing can only work when the old and new factories have the same size.

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: competition for programmers
« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2009, 09:16:38 AM »
I am planning to do something similar to the factories thing; however, factories would not simply magically be replaced all at the same time after a certain date. Instead, after their retire date, they would have an ever increasing chance of closing each year, and no new ones of the type will crop up. Newer factories would then possibly be built, if the pakset author had included a factory with a later retirement date.

Offline sojo

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Re: competition for programmers
« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2009, 09:32:04 AM »
James be sure. If I have the diamond village painted you can read your name in description. You make a lot programming stuff. You and prissi spend a lot of time for this.

James, who deserves to be mentioned? Nominated candidates may nominate other!

Offline Fabio

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Re: competition for programmers
« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2009, 09:49:53 AM »
James, you know what? it would be nice to have an image in packset for retired industries, to show them abandoned. these relics should be removeable by any player or let there, as often happens in RL.

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: competition for programmers
« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2009, 03:42:22 PM »
Fabio,

hmm, an interesting idea, but two possible issues: (1) pakset authors might not want to spend a long time making derelict industry images (although, if there are any here with a different view, do let me know!); and (2) the map might get cluttered. I should be interested in anyone else's view on the dereliction question, which, I suspect, needs further consideration.

Offline Fabio

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Re: competition for programmers
« Reply #12 on: January 23, 2009, 09:38:15 AM »
point 1 is true, although pakset authors could choose not to intoduce retirement dates OR maybe to choose an option to remove the old factory (if dereliction image is not set).

for point 2, i think it like this: you have a branch of your railways serving a factory or a mine. when it's retired (or the mine is exhausted) it would be odd for it to disappear and to see that branch serving an empty spot of terrain. you can close the line, but you can choose either to leave the tracks on place together with the industrial relic, either to remove both.

Offline VS

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Re: competition for programmers
« Reply #13 on: January 23, 2009, 03:33:36 PM »
Erm, in reality industrial complexes are rather improved with time, not completely abandoned and relocated elsewhere. I would say keeping and replacing buildings is a better option than leaving and constructing new building elsewhere.

Offline sojo

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Re: competition for programmers
« Reply #14 on: January 23, 2009, 03:48:50 PM »
I think this too. What should be made with the old factories, if they are 50 years or more leaved?

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: competition for programmers
« Reply #15 on: January 23, 2009, 11:07:17 PM »
VS,

I'm not sure that that's correct on a factual level. It is quite common for old industry to be quite abandoned - there are a great many abandoned industrial sites around the UK. Obviously, industrial plants are modernised over the years: the concept of industry retirement dates is not designed to deal with that sort of incremental change; rather, it is designed to deal with a shift in the kinds of industry on the map. The idea is not so much to replace "Old Widget Factory" with "New Widget Factory", the only difference between the two being the graphics, but rather replace, say, 5 Old Widget Factories with 1 New Widget Factory (with perhaps 3 times or perhaps 10 times the output of the Old Widget Factories), or replace 7 Old Widget Factories, 4 coking plants and 9 gasworks with three New Widget Factories and two microchip fabrication plants over the course of a quarter of a century. The player would then have to react by restructuring the transport network to deal with the new patterns of demand.

The idea of industry retirement dates is therefore to introduce a new economic dimension into the game, not just to keep industry graphics up to date.

Offline VS

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Re: competition for programmers
« Reply #16 on: January 23, 2009, 11:14:53 PM »
Ah. Is it? Now this is a bit of a clash between two views of the matter. I did not think about it the way you present - but at the same time, using this to improve industries in place could be an option, too.

What would be the removed industries? I can't think right now of something that completely "died" and was industrial enough... automotive industry? Not yet ;)

I would write more, but it's past midnight...

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: competition for programmers
« Reply #17 on: January 23, 2009, 11:51:18 PM »
The simple option for closed industries is to do what was done in Transport Tycoon, and just have them vanish into thin air. The other option is to have a "derelict industry" graphic, but then that causes all manner of complications, such as: do players get to bulldoze it? Can new industries be built on top of it? What would the bulldoze cost be? Does it disappear of its own accord over time, or remain? If the latter, will shut down industries end up clogging up the map after 50 years or so of play? And so forth. I suspect that, for the present, the thin air method is to be preferred - unless anybody else would like to code dereliction :-)

As to industries that have died - when was the last time that you saw a coking plant?

Offline prissi

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Re: competition for programmers
« Reply #18 on: January 24, 2009, 02:47:28 PM »
They house now the museum of modern art in Bochum ...

Offline VS

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Re: competition for programmers
« Reply #19 on: January 24, 2009, 03:41:41 PM »
I agree with you about dereliction. Apart from what you mention, it effectively doubles needed industry graphics; where to get them?

Now that I think of it again, your idea is in fact quite good. But I still find the lack of "direct change" a disadvantage. I understand that sometimes a radical shift (such as completely closing an industry kind) is needed, but at the same time, I think that being able to upgrade existing industries in place would be good idea, too - to reflect technological advances etc. in productivity increase or just looks. 1850 stone mine will have different equipment from 1950, but as the stone may not disappear, it will still be there.

Would you believe I had to look up "coke" to learn it is not the drink? :D Welllll - what you say is true, if coke is used elsewhere. After reading on that subject, however, it seems that coke is important part of steel production, and a short search revealed an article which seems to confirm that processing coal into coke is part of steel mills. Thus the steel mills of Simutrans model reality well, since they accept coal, not coke... of course, if there is some other use, then coking plants might be needed separately, too.

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: competition for programmers
« Reply #20 on: January 24, 2009, 04:19:18 PM »
VS,

ahh, interesting thoughts. The question is: how would a system in which industries can sometimes change in situ and sometimes be removed entirely work in gameplay mechanics terms? What would determine whether industries are upgraded or replaced? This needs more thought, I think.

As to coking plants - there were once separate plants, whereas they are now integrated into steel mills: vertical integration of industry is another aspect that can be simulated with retirement dates.

Offline The Hood

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Re: competition for programmers
« Reply #21 on: January 24, 2009, 04:42:17 PM »
Upgrading industries - steam grain mills aren't usually in the same place as old windmills / watermills (as an example).  If an industry just gets upgraded in the same place, could it not just have the same graphics in the same place?  This would avoid complication with different sized industries before and after upgrade.  For those that are no longer useful (e.g. decomissioned power stations such as Battersea in London), could they not stay where they are with the same graphics but no longer active in game terms?  Maybe with a message saying "inactive" and information in the info window saying this.  Or alternatively, have additional graphics for derelict state, which would have to be drawn, but if none existed just use the same graphics as normal.  Derelict industries could be removed just like any normal city building.

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: competition for programmers
« Reply #22 on: January 24, 2009, 04:52:26 PM »
One thing about derelict industries - if they had the same graphics, that might be confusing for players, and a big sign saying "inactive" would perhaps look ugly. What they did in Sim City 4 was to make the graphics a great deal darker for disused things (to make them look dirty), although that might be quite complicated.

Offline VS

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Re: competition for programmers
« Reply #23 on: January 24, 2009, 06:00:21 PM »
Steam grain mills no, but primary material sources for sure, since they are tied to resources: stone and sand pits, oil wells, ore and coal mines, forests, farms, plantations… At the same time there is also a number of other factories that could be upgraded in place, because there is not such a substantial change in their technology. The upgrade could be perhaps only in productivity, with everything else still the same!

I can think of more modes of industry closing:
a) plain removal, no further action
b) in place upgrade for another object, trying to preserve connections
c) replacement by another industry somewhere else
There is a very simple superset of these varieties: if there is specified a replacement, try to link it back into the chain as well as possible, and if it's a 1:1 match in terms of input and output goods (and has same location parameter), try to build it as close as possible.

Thinking about the wind/steam grain mill example, it would be nice to have some sort of "inverse cumulative" setting - so that it is first tried to link with existing instances of intended replacement. One modern mill for tree windmills, that's the idea behind...

In the end it boils down to perhaps four parameters - retire_year, retire_chance, replacement, replacement_count.

Derelicts could be nice, but should not be too easy to confuse with functional industries, and keeping original graphics would do exactly that. Of course one could simply paint them anew... or not? You are speaking from a position of a pakset-to-be contributor, who can mend that with little problem, because you still have all sources, made as 3d models and so on. But I see this rather as a chance to expand the "need new" list again with huge things. Admittedly, this requirement would be mostly for new material anyway, since the expansion will occur more likely backwards on time axis, letting current factories stay as they are in the later years. Well, now I defeated my own argument :) Do as you see fit.