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Author Topic: pak128 release version 2.2.0  (Read 19438 times)

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Offline sdog

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Re: pak128 release version 2.2.0
« Reply #35 on: January 11, 2013, 06:49:02 PM »
Oh, then the power rating for the MA-461 is dead-on. The only thing is it could use some coupling constraints to allow a second head car after a tail car.


Offline greenling

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Re: pak128 release version 2.2.0
« Reply #36 on: January 11, 2013, 07:00:05 PM »
Sdog
I have fund a old photo from a D(S)B Ma 461 Train.






Edit: Here it the data over those Train: http://www.jernbanen.dk/lyntog.php?typenr=3
« Last Edit: January 11, 2013, 07:27:13 PM by greenling »

Offline rainer

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Re: pak128 release version 2.2.0
« Reply #37 on: January 11, 2013, 07:37:05 PM »
Greenling, many thanks! This was the first really useful post I have ever seen from you! As I made the German version of that train for pak64.ho-scale, with those data and photos it is easy for me to adopt the danish version.

Seriously: Thank you!

Offline gauthier

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Re: pak128 release version 2.2.0
« Reply #38 on: January 12, 2013, 01:16:06 PM »
Quote
No, it's too few. It should be 10 or 15 years IMHO, but that would make the game unplayable. Think of a locomotive that nowadays costs around 3 or 4 milion €, I don' think it can be paid back in 1 year you know.

I know but it's a game, you know. Please don't make it too hard in name of realism. At rate of 1 train/year (which is even a bit hard to reach), playing from 1930 to 2000 you'll get about 70 trains for example  :-X
Using a train 10 years after intro date => losses : It's even worse than reality, all companies in reality use lots of trains which are older then 10 years.
About your undegroud cars : I insist on more than 200 passengers for an demi-tile-long vehicle is clearly too much.

Offline Fabio

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Re: pak128 release version 2.2.0
« Reply #39 on: January 12, 2013, 01:25:37 PM »
Here your arguments can be applied too: in name of realism we can't force underground or suburban stations to be too long! ;)

Offline VS

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Re: pak128 release version 2.2.0
« Reply #40 on: January 12, 2013, 02:59:47 PM »
The rationale for underground was that these are highly efficient people-movers, a box of sardines on an acelerator (more or less). Thus:
* low distance -> medium speed
* frequent stops -> high acceleration
* standing -> very high capacity

Offline greenling

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Re: pak128 release version 2.2.0
« Reply #41 on: January 12, 2013, 03:45:37 PM »
Rainer
Here in those link http://www.drehscheibe-foren.de/foren/read.php?17,4086378
gives a plan how the innere of a DB 601 was.

Offline Zeno

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Re: pak128 release version 2.2.0
« Reply #42 on: January 12, 2013, 03:46:41 PM »
Using a train 10 years after intro date => losses : It's even worse than reality, all companies in reality use lots of trains which are older then 10 years.
To correct a little bit that, I thought a lot of times to move the calculation to the medium point in its life (i.e., intro=1930, retire=1940, calculate at 1935). That would make the game even more tough, cause you'd get half the profit the very first years, although it would get half the losses at the end of its life. Other than that, I can only advice you to replace your vehicles when they begin to give losses; we can't make them profitable during a longer period due to the speed bonuses. Also, those bonuses will force players to replace their vehicles from time to time when playing timeline games, and we *do* like that.
About your undegroud cars : I insist on more than 200 passengers for an demi-tile-long vehicle is clearly too much.
I insist the underground train with highest capacity ever in spain (by far) was one from years 1920s, with approximate same size than nowodays' trains. As VS says, they are high capacity and low speed vehicles, and their stats are fully intended; personally, I wouldn't change them unless a majority asked for it.

Offline gauthier

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Re: pak128 release version 2.2.0
« Reply #43 on: January 12, 2013, 05:16:52 PM »
Quote
To correct a little bit that, I thought a lot of times to move the calculation to the medium point in its life (i.e., intro=1930, retire=1940, calculate at 1935). That would make the game even more tough, cause you'd get half the profit the very first years, although it would get half the losses at the end of its life. Other than that, I can only advice you to replace your vehicles when they begin to give losses; we can't make them profitable during a longer period due to the speed bonuses. Also, those bonuses will force players to replace their vehicles from time to time when playing timeline games, and we *do* like that.

So you have to :
_ buy new trains (very expensive) to face cities'growth
_ buy new trains (very expensive) to grow your network
_ buy new trains (very expensive) to replace old ones every ten years

I don't know how do you mannage all of that at the same time, I can't do that in my savegames, even with trains runing full of passengers :/

Offline gauthier

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Re: pak128 release version 2.2.0
« Reply #44 on: January 12, 2013, 05:38:20 PM »
After a research about average capacity/car in some metros :
_ Paris : 100 ~ 140 (source : Wikipedia in French)
_ London : 150 (source : Wikipedia in English)
_ Madrid : 180 (source : Wikipedia in Spanish)

I have to admit I under estimated capacity of your cars, but you have surely over estimated it too.

Offline Zeno

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Re: pak128 release version 2.2.0
« Reply #45 on: January 12, 2013, 07:19:09 PM »
_ buy new trains (very expensive) to face cities'growth
_ buy new trains (very expensive) to grow your network
_ buy new trains (very expensive) to replace old ones every ten X years

I don't know how do you mannage all of that at the same time, I can't do that in my savegames, even with trains runing full of passengers :/
First of all, please, don't take those "ten years" as a rule of a thumb: for some passenger trains that could be true due to bonuses, but that not the case for freight trains, for example. I usually have low speed freight trains that live for over 30 years. Do replace trains when you feel you need to; anyway, you can keep them running: rarely they will give you big losses, so you can keep them there and concentrate the big profit on hub routes or others. In any case, the solution relies on lowering the bonuses, or supressing the bonus system and use other methods to "force" the player to replace vehicles from time to time.

About managing all things at same time, well, I just wander around and place new networks, replace obsolete vehicles, restructure other networks... the low game speed gives me time for that and more. I only can advice patience :)

I have to admit I under estimated capacity of your cars, but you have surely over estimated it too.
I did not paint any metro from paris, london or madrid.  Neither over estimated anything. I just got some info on barcelona underground trains and painted them:
- TMB Series 100: 21.7m long, 54+184 passengers, year 1926
- TMB Series 200B: 16.5m long, 30+160 passengers, year 1926
- TMB Series 300S: 14.3m long, 18+100 passengers, year 1924
- TMB Series 400: 16.5m long, 36+160 passengers, year 1958

The only thing that is not standard is the reduced length of 6. I should have reduced the capacities accordingly, but anyway you need convois of 5 or more cars to get an advantadge from that.

Offline gauthier

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Re: pak128 release version 2.2.0
« Reply #46 on: January 12, 2013, 09:41:51 PM »
Quote
About managing all things at same time, well, I just wander around and place new networks, replace obsolete vehicles, restructure other networks... the low game speed gives me time for that and more. I only can advice patience

You must be a very good player, I can't do anything on my network at some moments, else I would have like 15M debt lol

Where have you found information about Barcelona metro's cars ? I can't find anything about it :x
Why not just making your cars a bit longer ?

Offline Zeno

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Re: pak128 release version 2.2.0
« Reply #47 on: January 12, 2013, 10:11:48 PM »
Take a look at http://wefer.com

Why not just making your cars a bit longer ?
Yes, I thought the same. But I did it too late, though. ;)

Offline Sarlock

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Re: pak128 release version 2.2.0
« Reply #48 on: January 13, 2013, 03:35:40 AM »
There is a balancing act between realism and gameplay that needs to be respected for any vehicle, of course.  The number of passengers in a train car, while nice to have similarities to reality, is important to set from a gameplay balancing perspective to ensure that profitability falls within a certain expected range.
It isn't necessarily a 1:1 ratio between a game train car and a real train car as well... a train in game might have 6 cars but maybe it represents a train with 12 or 15 cars.

Offline Fabio

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Re: pak128 release version 2.2.0
« Reply #49 on: January 13, 2013, 10:49:12 AM »
This argument applies especially to subways. In real life you expect to have a train every  3 to 5 min which in ST would mean a continuous stream of trains. Hence one consist must equal several real life trains to have anything manageable in a network.

Offline gauthier

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Re: pak128 release version 2.2.0
« Reply #50 on: January 13, 2013, 01:20:54 PM »
Quote
This argument applies especially to subways. In real life you expect to have a train every  3 to 5 min which in ST would mean a continuous stream of trains. Hence one consist must equal several real life trains to have anything manageable in a network.

There's a bif difference in size of cities and map between Simutrans and reality => big difference in size of lines and in passengers'amounts too :/