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Author Topic: pak128 release version 2.2.0  (Read 19576 times)

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Offline VS

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pak128 release version 2.2.0
« on: December 21, 2012, 11:14:37 PM »
Merry Christmas to all survivors of Mayan calendar end! Pak128 is back again :)

There have been even more improvements since last release than ever before.

DOWNLOAD pak128 2.2.0 (82 MB) for Simutrans 112.0

Thanks to everyone who helped, this release brings these changes from previous stable version (2.1.0):
  • Fabio & mEGa decided to put some snow into our winter! Lots of city houses and attractions reworked, added snow, rotations etc.
  • Lots of new parks and sport facilities from mEGa
  • Fabio's set of rail tracks, tunnels, bridges and elevated ways is finished
  • A number of station extensions, a new truck stop and new depot
  • Modern tram set from Fabio
  • New doubledecker, futuristic buses, early concrete truck...
  • Simutrans Fried Chicken - a new city consumer for meat, by Sarlock
  • Zeno's Tropical Mayan pyramid (2012 bonus ;) )
  • Rebalanced pricing of all modes of transport
  • Minimap colours are not a mess any more!
  • Narrow gauge addons should finally work
  • High altitude trees from Sarlock
  • Many other bugfixes and improvements

Big thanks to everyone, members of the team and other contributors alike!

If you are missing some of the previously removed objects, the compatibility pack might help somewhat.

Unfortunately, sources have exceeded reasonably uploadable size. The subversion repository is at http://simutrans.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/simutrans/pak128 and you can check out r1122, which is the one used for release (plus change in ground.outside text to version 2.2.0).

Offline greenling

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Re: pak128 release version 2.2.0
« Reply #1 on: December 22, 2012, 08:03:55 AM »
Vs
Thank you for the new relase of pak128.

Offline Zeno

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Re: pak128 release version 2.2.0
« Reply #2 on: December 22, 2012, 12:08:14 PM »
Wheeha!! Great job all you dudes!!


Offline Raiser

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Re: pak128 release version 2.2.0
« Reply #3 on: December 22, 2012, 12:22:09 PM »
Superb! Many thanks to all!

Offline almaf

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Re: pak128 release version 2.2.0
« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2012, 12:53:47 PM »
Good work!!!

Offline dekema2

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Re: pak128 release version 2.2.0
« Reply #5 on: December 23, 2012, 06:11:00 AM »
Can't wait to download!

Offline Pestr

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Re: pak128 release version 2.2.0
« Reply #6 on: December 23, 2012, 08:13:06 AM »
Nice work! Thanks to pak128 team!

But what generated strange bus-stop names in English?
For example:
%$1s Cavalry Street %$2s
%$1s Lavender Street %$2s

Offline Vonjo

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Re: pak128 release version 2.2.0
« Reply #7 on: December 23, 2012, 07:00:45 PM »
Thank you very much for everybody who work in it. Congratulations. :) A lot of changes. Why not 3.0.0? ;D

Offline Markohs

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Re: pak128 release version 2.2.0
« Reply #8 on: December 24, 2012, 03:19:37 AM »
Nice work! Thanks to pak128 team!

But what generated strange bus-stop names in English?
For example:
%$1s Cavalry Street %$2s
%$1s Lavender Street %$2s


 I have the same problem, just downloaded the new version.

Offline VS

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Re: pak128 release version 2.2.0
« Reply #9 on: December 24, 2012, 09:01:49 AM »
Oops, there could be a file text/streetlist_en.txt left from some experiments earlier...

Offline Fabio

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Re: pak128 release version 2.2.0
« Reply #10 on: December 24, 2012, 01:26:16 PM »
Should we release soon a v 2.2.1 bugfix?

Offline VS

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Re: pak128 release version 2.2.0
« Reply #11 on: December 24, 2012, 01:28:01 PM »
Maybe? It's just one file...

Offline Fabio

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Re: pak128 release version 2.2.0
« Reply #12 on: December 24, 2012, 01:32:36 PM »
It's just one file but a stable with such an ugly result seems poorly professional.
We could edit the release zip, though, keeping 2.2.0 version but fixing it for new downloads.

Offline Markohs

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Re: pak128 release version 2.2.0
« Reply #13 on: December 24, 2012, 01:40:32 PM »
I agre with fabio, has to be fixed asap imho. changing version number or not both seem reasonable options to me. :)

Offline Markohs

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Re: pak128 release version 2.2.0
« Reply #14 on: December 24, 2012, 01:57:58 PM »
btw, the new pak is splendid! many thanks to all the team for such a wonderful pak! :)

Offline Yona-TYT ve

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Re: pak128 release version 2.2.0
« Reply #15 on: December 26, 2012, 07:09:40 PM »
largest pak.128 undoubtedly the best  .)

Offline paichtis

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Re: pak128 release version 2.2.0
« Reply #16 on: December 26, 2012, 08:51:50 PM »
congratz for the release !

Offline Jaridan

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Re: pak128 release version 2.2.0
« Reply #17 on: December 29, 2012, 08:11:16 PM »
thx to all those that contributed (especially fabio, **** those bridges and elevated railways :D looking so good)

would it be possible to get a rundown on this subject, as to what extend or how it changed?
-Rebalanced pricing of all modes of transport


Offline VS

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Re: pak128 release version 2.2.0
« Reply #18 on: December 29, 2012, 08:30:48 PM »
Basically, we have set a basic speed throughout years, and what's faster, should make extra money. The changes you want to know about "simply" adjust prices so that this is true. As it turns out, the factors contributing are too complex to do something like (speed*load*price)/distance=maintenance (just faking it here - this formula is obviously wrong). Things like speed on hills, expected amount of vehicles and required infrastructure, all this accounts for some empirical numbers here and there, I think. Zeno knows more. He is the court speed-bonus wizard, and I am happy not having to touch that :D

Offline Beder

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Re: pak128 release version 2.2.0
« Reply #19 on: December 29, 2012, 09:48:03 PM »
Some points about the release:
- When downloading it this evening the build-number is still 112.1.1 nightly (?)
- The trains are extremly expensive now. Especially the only electrical one available at 1930 is not usable because of the high costs. It creates something about 3000$ per month. -> 120 Months = 10 years to pay its own bill. But there is still the maintenance of the tracks...  -> result: Even when I am a train-lover, I cannot use them anymore because they are simply not effective enough :-(

Offline Zeno

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Re: pak128 release version 2.2.0
« Reply #20 on: December 29, 2012, 11:11:44 PM »
If you're talking about the Renfe 270 locomotive... well, that's a quick one (90km/h) for 1930. If you run that loco in slower tracks (65km/h) it will lead you directly to bankrupcy.

Other than that, all rail locos should be paid back in about 4 or 5 years, maybe less if you use it 100% load and full speed all the time.

Offline Beder

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Re: pak128 release version 2.2.0
« Reply #21 on: December 30, 2012, 01:38:51 AM »
I was talking about the Pioneer Alladin

Offline Zeno

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Re: pak128 release version 2.2.0
« Reply #22 on: December 30, 2012, 09:05:30 AM »
Same applies in terms of speed and cargo: if you run the train at max speed and full of passengers, it should be paid back really quick. Nevertheless, if you run it at half capacity and at 65 km/h it can become a nightmare for your finances ;)

Offline Fabio

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Re: pak128 release version 2.2.0
« Reply #23 on: December 30, 2012, 11:23:01 AM »
First the street list, then the copyright in outside.dat

These are very inelegant, I hope we can release a bugfix early in 2013, maybe adding mega's winter stations as well (and maybe also some of gwalch's vehicles too).

Offline VS

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Re: pak128 release version 2.2.0
« Reply #24 on: December 30, 2012, 11:41:10 AM »
- When downloading it this evening the build-number is still 112.1.1 nightly (?)
Pakset version is displayed only with the loading bar, at startup. This is problem of program...

Offline sdog

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Re: pak128 release version 2.2.0
« Reply #25 on: January 04, 2013, 05:14:20 AM »
(belate) congratulations on the release!


tiny screenshot for the g+ posting


« Last Edit: January 04, 2013, 05:28:29 AM by sdog »

Offline Fraoch

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Re: pak128 release version 2.2.0
« Reply #26 on: January 08, 2013, 04:52:07 PM »
I have the same problem, just downloaded the new version.

Regarding this, I was told in another thread:

http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=11225.msg109485#msg109485

that all I had to do was replace the %$1s with %s (thanks VS!)  This seemed to work but now I have city names in each stop.  For example "Inverness Hyde Street Stop" and "Inverness St. Paul's Avenue Stop".  I'm not sure if this was the intention, was it?

Anyway this pak128 is fantastic, it's like playing a whole new Simutrans.  Congratulations everyone!

Offline HDomos

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Re: pak128 release version 2.2.0
« Reply #27 on: January 08, 2013, 09:46:07 PM »
Regarding this, I was told in another thread:

http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=11225.msg109485#msg109485

that all I had to do was replace the %$1s with %s (thanks VS!)  This seemed to work but now I have city names in each stop.  For example "Inverness Hyde Street Stop" and "Inverness St. Paul's Avenue Stop".  I'm not sure if this was the intention, was it?

Anyway this pak128 is fantastic, it's like playing a whole new Simutrans.  Congratulations everyone!

Thats how it works... The first %s is replaced by city name and the second to stop type.

Offline Fraoch

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Re: pak128 release version 2.2.0
« Reply #28 on: January 09, 2013, 01:26:22 PM »
Thats how it works... The first %s is replaced by city name and the second to stop type.

OK, thanks!

Offline dennosius

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Re: pak128 release version 2.2.0
« Reply #29 on: January 10, 2013, 02:18:00 PM »
Yeah, great! Really looks nice.

There is only one thing I don't like very much, and that's the high speed railway track.

If it's built diagonally, it really doesn't look nice, as tracks "split up" if it's a double line. And even if built straight, it looks slightly too bold in my eyes. Just as a feedback.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2013, 02:25:15 PM by dennosius »

Offline Fabio

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Re: pak128 release version 2.2.0
« Reply #30 on: January 10, 2013, 06:10:25 PM »
Well, 400 & 320 km/h tracks could use same bridge deck of 280 km/h ones, their tracks are rather distinctive and they would keep different pillars.
What do you think?

The diagonal issue can't be easily solved, I would just consider it a program limitation.

Offline gauthier

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Re: pak128 release version 2.2.0
« Reply #31 on: January 10, 2013, 08:07:33 PM »
Quote
all rail locos should be paid back in about 4 or 5 years

Well ... isn't that too much ? In my current map I pay back a train in one year but I still find that ... too much ... how can I develop a big nice network if I have to wait a year for each train ?

Moreover some trains are unplayable (CPH motorcar and some other railcars), buses are very difficult to make profitable (passengers give a very low amount of money for short journeys -> not enough for buses to be profitable, the same with undeground networks which are hardly profitable). On the contrary, some of your EMU have an ... impressive capacity O_o : renfe 440, TMB class300, and much worse : class 200, 400, 1000 and 100 (more than 200 passengers in demi-tile-length, single-decked, vehicle ... and at silly prices compared to a loco+cars train).

Offline sdog

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Re: pak128 release version 2.2.0
« Reply #32 on: January 11, 2013, 03:24:17 AM »
Some notes on balancing:

Delivering goods from a goods factory to a shopping mall is a little difficult for long distances and high output. Production at the goods factory is reduced when too many goods are in the system. However this happens quite easily with a large number of trains required for the long distance. I'd suggest a slight increase of the capacity at the shopping mall (about 15%).

It seems all locos are a little underpowered. In the 1950s i have hardly a train without three or four heads (EMD-F7A 3 heads for 6 tile long goods train, 4 EMD-FT heads for a 10 tile goods train). It is much more of a problem however for passenger trains.

Hiawatha express can have only 4 carriages before geting slowed down, DB-MA-461 head, two carriages and tail car, Pioneer Zephyr can't build any consist small enough it could power.

I find the balance between engines quite well though, also costs and prices. The game really became challenging, not just right after starting it. This i very much appreciate.

It would be very nice to have the piece good cargo ships also as a cooled goods version, it is a little awkward to transport cooled goods that are not fish, with fishing boats.

Offline Zeno

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Re: pak128 release version 2.2.0
« Reply #33 on: January 11, 2013, 07:40:35 AM »
Well ... isn't that too much ? In my current map I pay back a train in one year but I still find that ... too much ... how can I develop a big nice network if I have to wait a year for each train ?
No, it's too few. It should be 10 or 15 years IMHO, but that would make the game unplayable. Think of a locomotive that nowadays costs around 3 or 4 milion €, I don' think it can be paid back in 1 year you know.

Moreover some trains are unplayable (CPH motorcar and some other railcars), buses are very difficult to make profitable (passengers give a very low amount of money for short journeys -> not enough for buses to be profitable, the same with undeground networks which are hardly profitable). On the contrary, some of your EMU have an ... impressive capacity O_o : renfe 440, TMB class300, and much worse : class 200, 400, 1000 and 100 (more than 200 passengers in demi-tile-length, single-decked, vehicle ... and at silly prices compared to a loco+cars train).
You're right on some things you comment here: the CPH was a little bit unplayable, although it was better balanced since last version. Keep in mind that all vehicles are balanced in their intro year, if you use them 10 years later they will probably give lots of losses. Renfe EMU (440 and 447) have too much capacity and I should have reduced them before the release, that's right. About the TMB coaches, well those are underground trains, quite slow, and high capacity ones. Their high capacity is intended.

Offline greenling

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Re: pak128 release version 2.2.0
« Reply #34 on: January 11, 2013, 02:10:43 PM »
Hello on all
The balancing in the pak128 2.2.0 it not really be finsh.
I have remark that the train DB-MA-461 need a work around need.
Those train have in the history ran with two head four 4cars and two tailcars.
The combination of the train was:
DB-MA-461 head,DB-MA-461 car first class,DB-MA-461 car second class,DB-MA-461 car Kitchen second class tail,
DB-MA-461 Second class tail,DB-MA-461 car second class,DB-MA-461 car first class,DB-MA-461 head
and 120 bag mail it for DB-MA-461 head to many.

Offline sdog

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Re: pak128 release version 2.2.0
« Reply #35 on: January 11, 2013, 06:49:02 PM »
Oh, then the power rating for the MA-461 is dead-on. The only thing is it could use some coupling constraints to allow a second head car after a tail car.


Offline greenling

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Re: pak128 release version 2.2.0
« Reply #36 on: January 11, 2013, 07:00:05 PM »
Sdog
I have fund a old photo from a D(S)B Ma 461 Train.






Edit: Here it the data over those Train: http://www.jernbanen.dk/lyntog.php?typenr=3
« Last Edit: January 11, 2013, 07:27:13 PM by greenling »

Offline rainer

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Re: pak128 release version 2.2.0
« Reply #37 on: January 11, 2013, 07:37:05 PM »
Greenling, many thanks! This was the first really useful post I have ever seen from you! As I made the German version of that train for pak64.ho-scale, with those data and photos it is easy for me to adopt the danish version.

Seriously: Thank you!

Offline gauthier

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Re: pak128 release version 2.2.0
« Reply #38 on: January 12, 2013, 01:16:06 PM »
Quote
No, it's too few. It should be 10 or 15 years IMHO, but that would make the game unplayable. Think of a locomotive that nowadays costs around 3 or 4 milion €, I don' think it can be paid back in 1 year you know.

I know but it's a game, you know. Please don't make it too hard in name of realism. At rate of 1 train/year (which is even a bit hard to reach), playing from 1930 to 2000 you'll get about 70 trains for example  :-X
Using a train 10 years after intro date => losses : It's even worse than reality, all companies in reality use lots of trains which are older then 10 years.
About your undegroud cars : I insist on more than 200 passengers for an demi-tile-long vehicle is clearly too much.

Offline Fabio

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Re: pak128 release version 2.2.0
« Reply #39 on: January 12, 2013, 01:25:37 PM »
Here your arguments can be applied too: in name of realism we can't force underground or suburban stations to be too long! ;)

Offline VS

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Re: pak128 release version 2.2.0
« Reply #40 on: January 12, 2013, 02:59:47 PM »
The rationale for underground was that these are highly efficient people-movers, a box of sardines on an acelerator (more or less). Thus:
* low distance -> medium speed
* frequent stops -> high acceleration
* standing -> very high capacity

Offline greenling

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Re: pak128 release version 2.2.0
« Reply #41 on: January 12, 2013, 03:45:37 PM »
Rainer
Here in those link http://www.drehscheibe-foren.de/foren/read.php?17,4086378
gives a plan how the innere of a DB 601 was.

Offline Zeno

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Re: pak128 release version 2.2.0
« Reply #42 on: January 12, 2013, 03:46:41 PM »
Using a train 10 years after intro date => losses : It's even worse than reality, all companies in reality use lots of trains which are older then 10 years.
To correct a little bit that, I thought a lot of times to move the calculation to the medium point in its life (i.e., intro=1930, retire=1940, calculate at 1935). That would make the game even more tough, cause you'd get half the profit the very first years, although it would get half the losses at the end of its life. Other than that, I can only advice you to replace your vehicles when they begin to give losses; we can't make them profitable during a longer period due to the speed bonuses. Also, those bonuses will force players to replace their vehicles from time to time when playing timeline games, and we *do* like that.
About your undegroud cars : I insist on more than 200 passengers for an demi-tile-long vehicle is clearly too much.
I insist the underground train with highest capacity ever in spain (by far) was one from years 1920s, with approximate same size than nowodays' trains. As VS says, they are high capacity and low speed vehicles, and their stats are fully intended; personally, I wouldn't change them unless a majority asked for it.

Offline gauthier

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Re: pak128 release version 2.2.0
« Reply #43 on: January 12, 2013, 05:16:52 PM »
Quote
To correct a little bit that, I thought a lot of times to move the calculation to the medium point in its life (i.e., intro=1930, retire=1940, calculate at 1935). That would make the game even more tough, cause you'd get half the profit the very first years, although it would get half the losses at the end of its life. Other than that, I can only advice you to replace your vehicles when they begin to give losses; we can't make them profitable during a longer period due to the speed bonuses. Also, those bonuses will force players to replace their vehicles from time to time when playing timeline games, and we *do* like that.

So you have to :
_ buy new trains (very expensive) to face cities'growth
_ buy new trains (very expensive) to grow your network
_ buy new trains (very expensive) to replace old ones every ten years

I don't know how do you mannage all of that at the same time, I can't do that in my savegames, even with trains runing full of passengers :/

Offline gauthier

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Re: pak128 release version 2.2.0
« Reply #44 on: January 12, 2013, 05:38:20 PM »
After a research about average capacity/car in some metros :
_ Paris : 100 ~ 140 (source : Wikipedia in French)
_ London : 150 (source : Wikipedia in English)
_ Madrid : 180 (source : Wikipedia in Spanish)

I have to admit I under estimated capacity of your cars, but you have surely over estimated it too.

Offline Zeno

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Re: pak128 release version 2.2.0
« Reply #45 on: January 12, 2013, 07:19:09 PM »
_ buy new trains (very expensive) to face cities'growth
_ buy new trains (very expensive) to grow your network
_ buy new trains (very expensive) to replace old ones every ten X years

I don't know how do you mannage all of that at the same time, I can't do that in my savegames, even with trains runing full of passengers :/
First of all, please, don't take those "ten years" as a rule of a thumb: for some passenger trains that could be true due to bonuses, but that not the case for freight trains, for example. I usually have low speed freight trains that live for over 30 years. Do replace trains when you feel you need to; anyway, you can keep them running: rarely they will give you big losses, so you can keep them there and concentrate the big profit on hub routes or others. In any case, the solution relies on lowering the bonuses, or supressing the bonus system and use other methods to "force" the player to replace vehicles from time to time.

About managing all things at same time, well, I just wander around and place new networks, replace obsolete vehicles, restructure other networks... the low game speed gives me time for that and more. I only can advice patience :)

I have to admit I under estimated capacity of your cars, but you have surely over estimated it too.
I did not paint any metro from paris, london or madrid.  Neither over estimated anything. I just got some info on barcelona underground trains and painted them:
- TMB Series 100: 21.7m long, 54+184 passengers, year 1926
- TMB Series 200B: 16.5m long, 30+160 passengers, year 1926
- TMB Series 300S: 14.3m long, 18+100 passengers, year 1924
- TMB Series 400: 16.5m long, 36+160 passengers, year 1958

The only thing that is not standard is the reduced length of 6. I should have reduced the capacities accordingly, but anyway you need convois of 5 or more cars to get an advantadge from that.

Offline gauthier

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Re: pak128 release version 2.2.0
« Reply #46 on: January 12, 2013, 09:41:51 PM »
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About managing all things at same time, well, I just wander around and place new networks, replace obsolete vehicles, restructure other networks... the low game speed gives me time for that and more. I only can advice patience

You must be a very good player, I can't do anything on my network at some moments, else I would have like 15M debt lol

Where have you found information about Barcelona metro's cars ? I can't find anything about it :x
Why not just making your cars a bit longer ?

Offline Zeno

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Re: pak128 release version 2.2.0
« Reply #47 on: January 12, 2013, 10:11:48 PM »
Take a look at http://wefer.com

Why not just making your cars a bit longer ?
Yes, I thought the same. But I did it too late, though. ;)

Offline Sarlock

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Re: pak128 release version 2.2.0
« Reply #48 on: January 13, 2013, 03:35:40 AM »
There is a balancing act between realism and gameplay that needs to be respected for any vehicle, of course.  The number of passengers in a train car, while nice to have similarities to reality, is important to set from a gameplay balancing perspective to ensure that profitability falls within a certain expected range.
It isn't necessarily a 1:1 ratio between a game train car and a real train car as well... a train in game might have 6 cars but maybe it represents a train with 12 or 15 cars.

Offline Fabio

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Re: pak128 release version 2.2.0
« Reply #49 on: January 13, 2013, 10:49:12 AM »
This argument applies especially to subways. In real life you expect to have a train every  3 to 5 min which in ST would mean a continuous stream of trains. Hence one consist must equal several real life trains to have anything manageable in a network.

Offline gauthier

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Re: pak128 release version 2.2.0
« Reply #50 on: January 13, 2013, 01:20:54 PM »
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This argument applies especially to subways. In real life you expect to have a train every  3 to 5 min which in ST would mean a continuous stream of trains. Hence one consist must equal several real life trains to have anything manageable in a network.

There's a bif difference in size of cities and map between Simutrans and reality => big difference in size of lines and in passengers'amounts too :/