How to assemble trains / pak britain128

[integersmirk]

Hello

I am enjoying Simultrans very much, managed to get to a level of understanding where I am operating very profitably with timeline in pakbritain128 after a few false starts.

This has been achieved primarily through road and narrowguage rail (after my attempt at the start to roll out rail was not profitable), however growing volumes of passengers and mail, complexity/spaghetti of narrowgauge track developed and a war-chest of $6m+ has led me to the point where I am attempting to rip out the narrowguage and replace it with - hopefully - profitable passenger rail transport. My assumptions in doing this would be I could tidy up my rail corridors, and deliver the same or more passengers, faster, with speed bonuses, using rail platforms of the same size.

It is 1941.

I have got to the point where I have removed all of the narrowguage and laid a central rail corridor with fast track. I am ready to start putting in my stations so I thought I should check what size platform I need and have been tinkering in the depot to come up with something that will go fast and yet carry a decent amount of passengers and mail with platforms of 3 tiles in length. With narrowgauge my trains were typically  168pax, 45mail but only 50km/h.

I have walked away from this task feeling like I don't know enough about trains, or the game mechanics, to work this out! I have searched a fair bit on this forum and Google generally but can't find anything that covers the logic and constraints of train assembly.

I suspect that either:
* My assumptions are wrong
* My expectations are too high
* My ignorance about brake vans and order of assembly is a problem

Can anyone point me at a FAQ or thread that discusses this? Ideally I would like a train capable of high speed (up to 175km/h) that carries similar amounts of pax and mail as my narrowgauge did but when I try this I am restricted from adding the units I want or the train ends up far too long. Either way, I can't seem to assemble a train that ticks these boxes in the depot, let alone send it out and see if it is profitable. Any pointers?

Cheers

'smirk

[The Hood]

Faster trains in pak128.Britain require higher capacities (more coaches) to be profitable. You won't find a train that is capable of that speed that will be profitable with 3 tile trains. This is intended - real life express trains were usually large and high capacity. Lower volumes didn't get express trains. However you should be able to buy a loco and add a few coaches (couple of standards and a pax brake) to prove it's not profitable...

[kierongreen]

Often older stock had a much higher passenger density than more modern stock. There are a variety of reasons for this - smaller seats, no corridor connections, no toilets. 1941 gives you various choices...

Express:
LNER Teak express coaches with LNER A4 175km/h - 3 tile station means 2 coaches and a break so 160 passengers. 5 tiles would allow 352 passengers.
LNER A4 with Coronation Articulated sets - 4 tiles 240 passengers, 5 tiles 276
LMS Coronation 170km/h - 4 tiles 165 passengers, 5 tiles 207 passengers

Commuter:
SR 4-SUB (Electric) 120km/h - 3 tiles 382 passengers
LMS 502 (Electric) 112km/h - 3 tiles 374 passengers, 4 tiles 476 passengers (underpowered?), 5 tiles 646 passengers

A couple of notes (for The Hood/jamespettes/myself mostly)
The LMS Coronation Scot seems to have much less capacity than the competing LNER A4 - this might just reflect real life.
There's a years gap between retire of LAV and SUB introduction which should be addressed.

[integersmirk]

Thanks for the replies to date.

To summarise what I think you have told me:
* I am assuming wrong if I imagine a 3 tile train for pax and mail can run at speedbonus speeds and still be profitable
* You are recommending an electric solution for a 3tile train in this era

I have taken a big leap forward but I think a little bit more info might save me many hours wasted again:

* I now know why I didn't see electric options before. (In case another noob needs my level of advice - only depots on electrified tracks see electric trains or carriages). Now I can see them, but I don't see either of the electric options you highlight below (SR 4-SUB/LMS 502). Any ideas why?
* None of your suggestions combine pax and mail in one train. Part of my first problem arose from not being able to work out why I was not allowed to add mail carriages to the train I had selected. Am I unusual in wanting to create trains that carry both? Are there rules (or rules of thumb) here I should be aware of?
* I still have no idea what the requirements are for a brake carriage. I can guess that the heavier and faster the train, the more braking ability it needs. I can guess that braking power may need to be distributed somehow in various parts of the train. However I don't know when or if they are essential. Are there rules (or rules of thumb) here I should be aware of?

Cheers

'smirk

[jamespetts]

In reality, electric multiple units such as the 4-LAV or 4-SUB did not carry mail: they were intended for semi-fast or stopping passenger trains. Mail was carried in individual locomotive hauled carriages (or, on the Southern, in small quantities in brake vans). If you want an electric locomotive to haul mail in the 1940s, there is the Bulleid-Raworth CC-1, which goes with the Southern mail carriages. You can also haul passenger carriages in the same train with that.

As to the requirements for brake carriages, braking physics, as such, are not simulated in Simutrans-Standard (although they are in Experimental), so, if you are playing Standard, you need not worry about the number of brake vans or brake ended carriages. Indeed, even in Experimental, the system is designed to reflect the fact that such vehicles were continuously braked in real life, such that all passenger carriages (and passenger rated non-passenger carrying vehicles, such as mail vans) had their own automatic brakes. What is important, however, is to provide what the regulations at the time required, which is a brake carriage (or compartment), with accommodation for a guard and an emergency hand-brake, usually at both ends of the train. The constraints on carriage coupling are set up such as to require this. Make sure that your trains end with a vehicle that is underlined only in green in the depot window, rather than a mix of yellow and green. This means that it can be placed at the end of the train.

[greenling]

Hello Jamespetts,Kierongreen and The Hood
it possible to workaround the Trains that´s possible it to build only passenger trains and Mail trains.
Mixed Trains they transport passenger and mail like i not Really.

[kierongreen]

You are recommending an electric solution for a 3tile train in this era

In terms of pure passenger capacity - and in a built up area yes. Longer distances you'll be better off with express steam engines (or that's the theory anyway) as they are quicker.

Am I unusual in wanting to create trains that carry both?

Not unusual but it wasn't the usual way to transport large amounts of post. Small amounts could be carried in passenger trains but it would be more efficient to have had trains dedicated to post.

I still have no idea what the requirements are for a brake carriage.

Generally for locomotive hauled trains the last carriage needs to be a brake.

[The Hood]

You should be able to create trains with both mail and passenger compartments - there are mail variants of the teak LNER carriages which are compatible. The requirements for brake carriages are that they are placed at the end of a train (although in some sets these are also required as the first carriage as well).

This thread makes me realise the need for a guide/manual/wiki to the trains in pak128.Britain with their uses and typical carriage requirements.

[integersmirk]

"This thread makes me realise the need for a guide/manual/wiki to the trains in pak128.Britain with their uses and typical carriage requirements."

In writing my post I was hoping for one of these three outcomes:
* Someone would point me to the guide/manual/wiki that had already been written on this subject
* This thread would become a reference for this subject
* Someone would get motivated to write the guide/manual/wiki on this subject

Looks like it may have worked

There is definitely some logic being applied that restricts what carriages I can apply to a train which I do not understand despite my advice received to date. For example, if I pick LNER Class V2 2-6-2 (which automatically comes with a LNER Class V2 (tender)) and look at adding Passenger Trains, there are lots of carriages I can't apply, seemingly of all types; there are some that I can, which include:
* some brake carriages (but not all brake carriages are allowed and I don't know why some can't be added and some can)
* some carriages that are not brake carriages but that have a green/yellow line so maybe a brake carriage gets enforced later?
* some carriages that are not brake carriages and only have a green line so maybe I don't need a brake carriage at all?

I have also read here "Generally for locomotive hauled trains the last carriage needs to be a brake." However, I have run lots of trains and none of them have any brake carriages.

I will understand if it is more productive for me to keep muddling through and waiting for the guide/manual/wiki instead of distracting you into specific feedback here. But of course, any specific feedback gratefully received.

Cheers

'smirk

[kierongreen]

If you are appending vehicles to a train then a green and yellow bar means another vehicle will need to be added afterwards (often a brake). A green bar on it's own means that can be the last vehicle in the train. A red bar means the carriage is not allowed - generally this is because there would have been no chance historically that the combination would have been used together.

About the last carriage needing to be a brake - this in generally true as I said (well, in version of the pak from the last few years anyway). Which examples are you thinking of where this isn't true? As I said, this applies to locomotive hauled trains, multiple units often have a brake unit incorporated in the middle or don't need one at all.

[integersmirk]

"A red bar means the carriage is not allowed - generally this is because there would have been no chance historically that the combination would have been used together."

"Historically inaccurate carriage combinations are not allowed" - this should definitely be in a FAQ, if it isn't already. I had not understood that before. Obviously there are lots of things I have learned in this thread and lots I still don't understand, but for some reason this item seems quite significant. The fact the red bit meant something was not allowed I had understood, but not this reason for it.

"About the last carriage needing to be a brake - this in generally true as I said (well, in version of the pak from the last few years anyway). Which examples are you thinking of where this isn't true?"
GWR 3100 Class Prairie Tank 2-6-2T with oodles of coal / bulk goods carriages
LNER Class B17/5 streamlined 4-6-0 with 3 x GWR Autocoach and SR Mail van
SR Merchant Navy Class 4-6-2 with 4 x Metropolitan "Dreadnought" carriage.
Like I say - every train I have run has had no brake carriage. To be clear the last two listed here are not combinations I have run so there has been no attempt to optimise these for a purpose. However everytime I have tried to optimise a train before I have been able to do it without a brake carriage. I have actively avoided them as they seem to be sub-optimal use of a station tile and I have not been aware of any benefit.

[Ters]

A red bar means the carriage is not allowed - generally this is because there would have been no chance historically that the combination would have been used together.

A pak<something>.Norway would have been much easier in that regard. I don't think there is any combination of carriages that has not been used, as long as they were the slightest bit contemporary. I've even seen pictures of multiple units embedded in the middle of locomotive hauled trains and trains with carriages from multiple companies (actually nations).

[kierongreen]

I think constraints were only added for passenger stock to force brake vans. Autocoaches have brake compartments in them (they are designed to be used either alone or in pairs on lightly used branch lines), dreadnought carriages maybe are missing a brake varienty (if there was one historically?).

[jamespetts]

The Metropolitan railway carriages (both the Dreadnought and earlier types) are indeed missing brake carriages; they certainly would have had brake carriages (brake ended passenger carriages), as they would have had to have complied with the applicable regulations at the time, which required one. We could also do with some of the earliest Metropolitan (standard gauge) carriages, the "Long Charleys" or the "Long Toms", the 8-wheel non-bogie carriages of the 1860s.

[integersmirk]

Again, I will presume to re-summarise just to make sure I have got the thread right:
* brake carriages would always be required historically
* it's the game's intention to restrict train assemblies so they are consistent with what might have occurred in the past
* there are some instances where you can assemble trains without brake carriages but:
  * in some instances (such as Autocoaches) these are actually braked, they just don't say that
  * in some instances it has not been constrained in the game but this is most likely due to lack of time/resource or just oversight, not due to lack of intent

If I've got all of this right, I now feel comfortable in retiring gracefully back in to my hidey-hole, much better informed! Thanks for the time taken to educate me (above and beyond the time taken to give me this game in the first place).

Cheers

'smirk

[jamespetts]

That seems to be a correct summary to me.